31-Why Most People Never Tell the Truth About Their Childhood, interviewing Warren Rankine
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You can listen above or on your favourite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
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You can listen above or on your favourite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
Show notes
Warren Rankin, author of '15 Feet Tall,' shares his journey from business to authorship, the emotional process of writing, the decision to publish, and the challenges of vulnerability and cultural representation in memoir writing. He discusses the role of editors and the response to his memoir from men and women, highlighting the growth and evolution experienced through the writing process. The conversation delves into the themes of compassion and connection, revisiting personal records, institutional trauma and freedom of information, separating craft from product, persistence in marketing and promotion, and belief in self and value creation. Warren's experiences and insights provide valuable lessons for aspiring authors and individuals navigating personal challenges.
Takeaways
Chapters
Takeaways
- The journey from business to authorship
- The emotional process of memoir writing Compassion and empathy build trust
- Revisiting personal records can reveal discrepancies and confrontational surprises
- Persistence and belief in self are crucial in marketing and promotion
Chapters
- 00:00 The Journey to Authorship
- 06:31 The Decision to Publish and the Editing Process
- 13:46 Writing About Family and Vulnerability
- 25:50 Vulnerability and Growth in Memoir Writing
- 32:04 Compassion and Connection
- 37:23 Institutional Trauma and Freedom of Information
- 46:03 Persistence in Marketing and Promotion
- 52:16 Belief in Self and Value Creation
Connect with Warren Rankine
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Warren Rankine is author of Fifteen Feet Tall — a memoir written by a Ngarrindjeri man exploring childhood abandonment, foster care, trauma, identity, survival, and what it means to rebuild a life after growing up without stability.
Warren’s story isn’t just the memoir itself, but the way he’s approached authorship. He’s not coming from a literary or academic background. He built a business first, then turned to storytelling, and has approached publishing with a really direct, entrepreneurial mindset. We’re talking about writing trauma honestly without becoming trapped by it, the emotional cost of memoir, masculinity and vulnerability, and the realities of marketing and direct-selling your own story in a crowded publishing landscape. Website: https://www.fifteenfeettall.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fifteen_feet_tall/ |
Transcript of episode
Amra (00:34)
Today on the podcast, I'm speaking with Warren Rankin, author of 15 feet tall, a memoir written by a Naranjeti man exploring childhood abandonment, foster care, trauma, identity survival, and what it means to rebuild a life after growing up without stability. What fascinated me about Warren's story isn't just the memoir itself, but the way he's approached authorship. He's not coming from a literary or academic background. He built a business first,
then turned to storytelling and has approached publishing with a really direct entrepreneurial mindset. So today we're talking about writing trauma honestly without becoming trapped by it, the emotional cost of memoir, masculinity and vulnerability, and the realities of marketing and direct selling your own story in a crowded publishing landscape. Welcome Warren ⁓ so we met at
Warren (01:27)
Hello, Emrah.
Amra (01:30)
Bookfair first and then Clunes and had just the most wonderful chats and I learnt so much from you about direct selling so I'm really excited to talk to you about the memoir but also all the lessons that you've got about the approach that you have taken in terms of getting your book out there. but first I wanted to sort of talk about your decision to tell the story and and why did you decide it had to become a book and your writing journey.
journey.
Warren (01:56)
Well, that goes back 10 years. So that goes back to, you know, being on a plane on a overseas trip and with Melissa, my partner, my long-term partner sitting next to me and me opening up my iPad and just, you know, scribbling away or typing away. And she looked over and said, what are you doing? And I said, well, think I'm going to write a book. And she kind of looked at me and giggled and said, you are. And that's a common sort of, that's been a common response.
30 years with Melissa with anything I do, but probably the thing that she understood and understands implicitly is that when I decide to do something, I can't do it. And so I decided 10 years ago that I thought that I'd lived a life that was a little bit different and was a little bit unique. And that had sort of drawn a parent on me more and more as I sort of gotten older. And I thought, well, let's just start to put this down.
I never really did it with any kind of focused intent. I kind of, you know, went along and, you know, probably plane trips were the thing, you know, to have an hour or two hours and sitting there idly. And it was a way of me being able to sort of while the time away. And that happened sporadically for the best part of the next seven or eight years.
Amra (03:06)
Mm. I think like what what I was struck by was what you said, realizing that your story was not, you know, that's unusual, it's got you've got something to say. I remember going through that myself where as you become an adult and you talk to more people, you kinda have that moment where you look back on your childhood and you're like, ⁓
That's different. That's unusual, is it? and you sort of start thinking, maybe there's something there and and you know, writing that story. Did you find the process of writing, ⁓ like for me it was very cathartic and it really helped me process a lot of things?
Warren (03:38)
Not
initially, because the reality of writing was just a, was a, you know, I wouldn't even say it was a passion project because I wasn't that passionate about it. was just an occasional thing that I would do. And, you know, I think I started writing at around 40, 41, and I'm now 54 on Friday. And so, you know, the reality of that first seven or eight years was literally just idle time. And so it wasn't really...
had this active thought process where I was thinking this is good for me or I'm getting something out of this. Because at that point it was just a loose concept on an iPad. And it wasn't really until I put it down and I left it alone for a couple of years. And there were reasons why I left it alone. And that was because I thought to myself, who writes a memoir at 48? who's at 48, who has the right to...
go out into the world and say, look at me, look at what I've done. so I kind of, and it was also like the midlife crisis thing where I went, geez, if I finished this, what happens next? And is my life over? And you know, is that the end of the story? And so I kind of pushed back on, and when I said pushed back, didn't actively push back on it. I throw it in bin or anything like that. I just kind of put it away and ignored it. And then, you know, push came to shove when a couple of three,
life-changing situations all happened within sort of a 12, 18 month period. And that coupled with, I guess, late life coming of age into who I was and what my life represented and what I meant to other people that I thought, you know, it's really incumbent upon me to put this down for others, not so much just myself.
Amra (05:17)
Yeah, I mean that's the thing. You you you start writing the memoir, you feel like you have to. then you start the second guessing and and that whole process. And then there's the memoir that you write and then the process of editing and producing it. What was that like for you?
Warren (05:32)
Well, that's,
you I guess the catalyst, you you talk about the, you know, the circuit breaker was the, I guess the timidity or the, you know, the reluctance to finish it. And then, you know, the circuit breaker and that process was those three traumatic things that occurred in the business. And I guess that's when the intense really started was when I committed to it early last year. We got back from Christmas holidays and I went, right, it's time to nail this.
I'd had enough of mates on the golf course or in the pub or family members saying to me, where's the book? You've been occasionally speaking about this book, where is it? And so I kind of felt compelled after the three life changing things for a number of reasons. One was to put it down for my family. The other one was to get the monkey off the back, so to speak, in regards to, I don't like leaving things in life unfinished. And so there was a resolve to just...
knuckled down and I guess that's when the real emotion of the book and what the book meant to me sort of connected. kind of, you know, really the roosters, you know, the chickens came home to roost so to speak. I, you know, I buckled down for three months. I've, you know, I'd written 40,000 words in eight years and I wrote a hundred thousand words in three months. And so that then last year became this kind of, let's just get it finished. And it was a real focused intent for me.
Amra (06:49)
Mm. I can also really relate to the midlife crisis. because everything I'm doing now in my creative world is my midlife crisis. And and there's that thing of the life changes, the things happening, the the intent and all of that. And then there's just this pure joy where you get to this point where you're like, I don't care. I'm just putting it all there. Yeah, and and I think you've reached that point because you are really
Warren (07:08)
Yeah. Yep.
Amra (07:14)
Like when I saw you at the book fairs and and the way that you talk about your story and you sell and connect with people, like you're fully there, ⁓ fully committed.
Warren (07:24)
I think that's a practical thing for me. Growing up with the story that, I mean, my early life was full of trauma. And so the practical nature of my life has sort of taken over and from a very early age, I mean, there were things to do as a kid, even breaking out of the system that I was in and then moving in through life, even when I was getting into trouble because my EQ wasn't quite matching my IQ or vice versa.
there were still practical outcomes. And so I've led a life of practical outcome, know, starting a business from scratch and seeing that through. So that kind of, you know, if that looks second nature, it's because it is, because I've my whole life approaching my life like that way. And I guess the, you know, the balancing part of that is that while I'm doing things, I'm not having to emotionally get involved in all the trauma. And one thing the book that...
kind of derailed me a little bit as a human being was that it forced me to get involved in the trauma. Because in order to tell the authentic story of my life, I had to invest and I had to put myself back in those places and those feelings and those thoughts. I couldn't just practically move away from the reality of what those things were and still are. So, you know, thank you for, it's lovely to hear that. But I think it's, you know, it really is a practical thing. And I guess when I see
you know, walking into those environments fresh. I've got no battle scars. You know, I walk into those, you know, there's festivals, book fairs, that sort of thing with my own intention. And I'm not coloured by coerciveness from others or I don't feel any limitation or need to slip back into the crowd. I'm there to, I guess, present, you know, put my best foot forward and present what I've spent the last 10 years creating.
Amra (09:04)
Yeah, that's that's true, 'cause you know, when you're in the publishing industry, and you have been working in it, there's there's this whole shoulds and shouldn'ts and yeah, you do put limitations on yourself and it is really hard to kind of that's something that I've I've gone through. and I think I've reached the other side, but yeah, it it does take a while. so that those are the benefits in a sense of you just focusing on the story, focusing on telling what is important to you and and just getting it out there. I wanted to ask about how do you meet
your identity as an indigenous man.
Warren (09:33)
That's a really interesting question. Something that, you know, whilst a lot of the book has been wrote, how would you put it subconsciously, if you like, I've had to put a conscious effort into what that means in the book and what that means to the people around me and not only to the people around me, but to the potential audience of the book. So, you know, people that might pick the book up and make their own judgements and assumptions on what my intentions are, what my purpose is, you know.
my character is, what my true ancestry is, all those things. It's a pretty delicate, it's been delicate kind of thought process and one that I'm very respectful of. I'm certainly not, you know, my book is, whilst my book is, you know, originates as an Aboriginal story by an Aboriginal man, it's not a fully Aboriginal story. There are many other elements to my book that make it not just about my Indigenous.
heritage and, and connect and look, know, connection, lack of connection to that. So, you know, I was very conscious to make sure that I didn't put myself in places or put the book in places that would offend or, or that people could misinterpret my intentions with the outcome of.
Amra (10:41)
Yeah. I can relate to that too in terms of my my ⁓ novel being about a massacre, a genocide that happened in in my community, but I'm not actually a survivor. I'm coming through it from research. And so I when there are the remembrances, I don't feel comfortable promoting my book during that time because it just feels too commercial and too crass. yeah, so it's it's something to mediate.
Warren (11:05)
I think integrity is like everything in life. And so, you know, at the end of the day, your responsibility is first to yourself and your family. And if you're feeling that organically, then I guess that's the right call. Instinctively, we're all led instinctively. And if your instincts are tied to your values, then, you know, one plus one is two, right? So, you know, I don't think it's unreasonable at all to have these boundaries in place where you are governed.
by other people because not everybody is going to see your intent the way that you mean it. And whilst your obligation is to yourself and your family first, you do have an obligation to society to make sure that you are placing yourself within society in the right context.
Amra (11:48)
Now this is something I grappled with myself, so I'm I'm interested to hear your perspective. How do you write honestly about family without turning the book into revenge?
Warren (11:58)
That's a really good question because I think it's well documented in my story that there are people that have let me down and left me behind and you know, there's a lot of collateral damage personally with that that comes along. And so I think if you're writing it with the right intentions and you're writing it with authentically, I think it's okay to leave things where they lie.
You know, if you've, if at the end of the day, relationships have failed and people no longer connect and you can't force, you know, you can't force those things. So for me, it's more about the fact that what's to gain by, what's to gain by being seen to be vindictive, regretful. I think you have to get to a place when you write a memoir specifically, I think you can get lost in.
in fiction it's a little bit different because you can cloak your intentions and your emotions in characters and plot lines and all that sort of stuff. But in a memoir, it's pretty easy for others to see through, you know, your intent. And so if you're doing your family and yourself any modicum of respect, then I think you've got to hold yourself respect. And part of that responsibility is to not force the readers into your issues.
They can observe them, but you shouldn't be trying to coerce people or force people into emotionally being involved in those things. When you read someone else's memoir, you're an observer. That's all you are. And so it's unfair of the author then to try and drag people's judgment one way or the other through the story. So yeah, I guess I kind of always had this governing factor over me that was self-
regulated to want to make it a neutral positive story, not a neutral negative story, if that makes sense.
Amra (13:44)
Yeah. I was writing my memoir my whole life and one of the versions when I was in my twenties was titled Sins of the Mother. Slightly judgmental. And ⁓ it was only in my thirties when I was a mother myself that I was able to look at my mother with empathy and compassion and see her perspective. whereas up until then I was always just viewing it as the child and just from that lens of betrayal.
Warren (13:52)
Yeah.
Amra (14:11)
Bio.
Warren (14:12)
Well, and it's a reactionary position too, because what you're doing is you're using the privilege of being able to put it into writing for your own reasons. And I think it's a bit like the email you should never send. You write that initial email and you draft it and you sleep on it and you wait till the next day. Well, memoirs are a little bit more, I guess, they take a lot longer to kind of evolve.
So you've got that opportunity in a memoir when you go through the editing process to actually be objective. So you write it subjectively, sure, but then you must be objective when you edit it because, and like anything, it doesn't read back always the way you wrote it or intended to write it. So that editing process is a really good fail safe for people. And I guess a get out of jail card, if you feel like you're a bit...
in a bad place when you've written that body of text and then you go back to it a year later or six months later or however long period it is, you get a fresh set of eyes on it. that's where I guess a really good editor helps as well. There are a lot of people that wanna do everything in their book themselves because they can't let go. It's really important to let go of the process once you've put those words down and let a fresh set of eyes and someone else look at it.
Amra (15:31)
So what was your process in terms of getting all of that support to get it pr to production?
Warren (15:35)
Well, mine was serendipitous because I kind of went along and found the components as I went along. I always knew that knowing what I know about the business world and the gatekeeping that exists in all industries, not just the publishing industry. I faced that as a young businessman in my own industry in the building game in Adelaide. But I kind of knew early that
for me to get this story out there, I had to do it off my volition. And if I was gonna be happy with the way the outcome or the consequential outcome of where this finished, then I was gonna have to get my hands dirty and roll my sleeves up and really get into the process. I concentrated on writing it first. I think that's the interesting thing. I probably wrote 75 % of it before I approached an editor and that editor kinda.
just turned up through a mutual business connection. know, someone put something up on Facebook, hey, I've got this editor and she's looking for work. And as it turns out, she was the only person I approached to edit the book. it was, you know, and there are a lot of things that happen organically and serendipitously that you just go, I can either vet this light to its core where I, you know, where I auditioned 15 people for the right outcome because I'm
you know, concerned about who might get their hands on it. Or I can just go with my gut. And I went with my gut on the editing process and Hari Tee, who's originally from England and lives in Adelaide. You know, she'd had a fair track record. And when I discovered her, was in a place where she was ready to receive the book, not just professionally, but emotionally. And that was in respect to my book was really important.
If it had have been a black and white process where I was given a fixed number and an outcome, that would have been great if that was the only thing I knew. But because Hari was so compassionate and so ⁓ generous in offering that compassion in the early part of the process, that gave me this instinctive kind of wrap its arms around me kind of feel where I went, righto, let's roll with this. Now, if we'd had gotten like all relationships,
if we'd have gotten three quarters of the way through the process and it just didn't feel right, then I guess you revisited it as you go. But from an editing perspective, she just felt like the right option and sometimes that's life.
Amra (17:51)
That's something that I've because I've done a lot of writing workshops and I've been approached by a lot of people who suffered ⁓ incredible trauma and they want to write about it. and they have struggled to find the right person to help facilitate that and to help support them, you know, the wrong critique partners or writing groups. so that's something that's really important to highlight. It's not just about those professional qualifications. When when we're writing things that are, you know, to us it's just life.
This is not I mean, we know it's trauma, we've gone through it, but to us it's just life. You know. This is just the norm. whereas ⁓ a lot of people are like, my gosh, this is so trauma, which I understand, but I almost sometimes like get offended about where it's like, ⁓ my life is so difficult for you to read about, I must do content warnings.
Warren (18:41)
look,
I think in Hari's case, she gave me a fee and that fee changed a couple of times because of the sheer volume of content that she had to work through. And I was, and there's a little bit of give and take, you all professional relationships. I'm a builder, so I work with clients all the time in regards to their expectations versus what we've delivered and the gap that sometimes exists in between. And that's the old, you know, I thought that, you know, a client thinks, I thought, and the builder says, we're gonna do this. And then sometimes there's a gap. Well,
That happens across all professional relationships and all transactions. And I think the interesting thing about when you, the publishing industry is that like every industry, people want to, know, operators want to be efficient. So they say, these are the services we're prepared to provide for this fixed number. Well, Hari gave me a fixed number, but what she didn't buy into was the after hours messaging, direct messaging and the light bulbs that go off in the creative process where you just have this idea. if you don't,
process that idea or communicate that idea and test that idea with the person that's involved in the outcome, then you can lose that moment and you can lose the brilliance of that moment and how that transfers to the finished result. So, know, Harri was great from that perspective. She didn't just buy into the formal process of editing the book. She bought into the emotional ride that I was gonna take her on. And...
And I'm relentless, you know, I'm relentless in everything I do. And that's that practical thing we talked about before. You know, if you're going to stick your feet in the water, you put your bathers on, you go down to the beach. What's the point of just sticking your toe in the water? Like go for the swim. And so that's, guess, where Hari kind of strapped it. After a little while, I think her eyes kind of widened and she went, right, I'm either in or I'm out. And she, you know, luckily for me, she...
fully committed and whilst we have this little joke that you know she went a little bit over time as a lot of creatives do, I'm wrapped with the result and couldn't speak more highly of her through the process.
Amra (20:38)
good. I'm so happy. I think also that's a a really important point, for people who are searching for editors, especially for memoir, to take those things into consideration too. It's not
⁓ just the editing process. It's also that collaboration and that support that you might need yeah to to actually do what you need to do and think through a lot of things. Because I struggled with writing about my mum and about her mental illness and I was worried about writing it without exploiting her story and sensationalizing her story. and so I sought a mentor to support me with that. because you don't know what you don't know.
And it's
Warren (21:15)
And it
takes an extraordinary amount of discipline, I guess, for a memoir editor, because when someone writes their memoir, it's a little bit different to a journalist writing, doing a ghostwrite of a memoir or a biography, because the journalist is coming from an objective perspective. They're not coming from a subjective perspective. And so it's really incumbent on the editor when they're dealing with a, especially self-publishing author.
and someone who is autobiographical to stand back a little bit. And so there are number of times through our process that Hari went to, you know, she's English. her language and her word choice is specifically different to our Australian vernacular. And a couple of times where she, you know, replaced words and whatever else, I said, no, no, no, no, no,
authentically connect to me in the book. And so there are only a handful of those things that we had to discuss through the process. So that speaks to this sheer amount of discipline that she engaged herself to allow me to drive that process. And she was directed by me as the author.
Amra (22:20)
I love that. Now I wanted to move on to masculinity vulnerability and memoir and and you know men are often discouraged from emotional honesty. Was vulnerability difficult for you in the writing process?
Warren (22:35)
I
know in the writing process, I've got a 500 page file that was out of my hands before my life even started. So when I say out of, it wasn't 500 pages the whole way through my life, but that document started. And I think that's the interesting thing about the back cover of the book where you've got my institutionalized file number, which is also tattooed on my calf now. And that is that I was given this identity before I chose it. And so...
I had known it no different. So the vulnerability in living this life became again practical. It didn't become an emotional decision for me. It was a practical reality for me. And so the vulnerability has really only come post release because all of these new experiences for any human being in any field across the planet, that's where your vulnerability comes from is having the courage to put yourself in places that
Others might go, ⁓ but that's not the person we know knew 10 years ago. Well, that's not the person. So, you know, me popping up on podcasts, radio interviews, book launches, you know, in conversation events. I've got a couple this week that are significant with Reconciliation Week tomorrow and the History Month in South Australia on Friday. And those things are the things that bring out the vulnerability because they force you into places you're not comfortable.
Amra (23:47)
Think that's true when whenever you start something, because you know, my midlife crisis in terms of my publishing and podcast, and when you're doing something new, it is so uncomfortable. Like you you literally want to rip your own skin off and just be anywhere but doing that thing. And it's about keep doing it and keep, you know, learning and improving, and slowly it becomes comfortable.
But that that's that's the process of learning. That's the process of opening yourself up to new experiences. Unfortunately you can't get to that joy thing or to that point of things ⁓ being normal for you until you go through that whole uncomfortable process.
Warren (24:30)
Well, there's thousands of podcasts now. There are people all over the world now that, it started in books, self-help books and a lot of South psychology books. I started reading these things when I was in my late teens, early twenties. so, all this information is not new. It's been around forever. It's just that now our forms of communication are so much more direct and so much more accessible. So you can find this information everywhere. And essentially what you just described is just growth. It's just growth.
Amra (24:58)
Yes.
Warren (24:58)
That's
all that is. And as human beings, if you're not growing and life's standing still, well, that's okay for some, but for most of us, evolution doesn't work that way. So, getting down to the micro of each individual on the planet, it doesn't work for us either as individuals. So, I guess this is realisation that when you do new things, uncomfortability is...
It's just, it's a given. Like it's, you know, it's, you can't know what you don't know. You can't have experience in doing the things you haven't done yet. So all those things bring with it, I think excitement in the, the uncomfortability rather than apprehension.
Amra (25:39)
And I just also wanted to ask, have men responded differently to the memoir than women when you've interacted with readers who have read it and and contacted you?
Warren (25:48)
Yeah, that's a great question actually because you know with all the data analytics that you can now apply to your social feeds and all the rest of it, you know I've been in sales for you know 35 years and so data and analytics are my thing and I do take particular interest in Especially when you've got something physical. It's a physical object and you can measure really easily. It's not a feeling it's a it's a cold hard reality and
And so, yeah, it's about a two thirds response from women over men. But I think the wonderful thing about men's health in general now is that men are feeling more comfortable in seeking out help. They're more comfortable in communicating to other men what they're learning and what they're going through. And I think that is naturally bringing with it an openness to acknowledge.
other people's stories. And so, you know, you take Luke Bateman, the book guy on Instagram, who was, I think he was on the celebrity, Get Me Out Of Here or something like that a little while ago. You know, a guy in what is traditionally a feministic kind of coming out and saying, I read this great, you know, romance novel. mean, go back 10 years ago.
And the bloke still goes to the footy with his mates, eats a pie and drinks a beer, but men feel so much more safer in these kind of feminine spaces, traditionally feminine spaces now. And so, yeah, that's been an interesting watch for me because I'm a blokey bloke. My book is filled with 70s and 80s bloke themes and watching how blokes have...
read it and then acknowledged it and communicated that back to me has been really, really interesting.
Amra (27:29)
Is there any particular fan email that has really because I I had the experience of I wrote a memoir about the women in my family thinking I got an email from a Muslim Bangladeshi man who had gone through the court system for beating his wife and he said, you know
Like your father, I grew up in a culture where this was the way that we treated women and then came to Australia and found out, no, this is not the culture and we can't do this. And I was just awestruck by, you know, he he was reading the male perspective and connecting with ⁓ my domestically abusive father. Has anything like that happened with you where you're like, I didn't know that that was something?
Warren (28:00)
Anyway.
I've worked in people's homes for, I started in the book as you would have read, the thing that changed my life was knocking on people's doors as an 18 year old, sales canvassing. So I've been going into people's environments for 35 years and immersing myself in their environments. And the thing about that, answer to your question is people never feel so comfortable as they do in their own home. So I've had a lifetime of this kind of compassionate, empathetic.
necessity within my own makeup because, you know, I'm there to do a job and extract essentially a transaction out of a client. But at the same time, the magic in that is showing compassion and empathy towards those people. And that's how you connect and that's how you connect with authenticity. That's how you build trust. And so I already knew to a point that that would be a part of the feedback. Other people taking solace in the courage I've shown.
And when I say courage, I don't think I'm courageous. just think I've written my story. But others have certainly come forward and, know, in different measures, if you like, of, you know, you've opened a door that I never thought I'd be able to see through. You know, I went through this as a kid at book fair where I met you. I had a lady walk up and she just started crying in front of me. She didn't say anything. She just started crying. And I said, are you OK? And she said,
Yeah, she said, but that little boy on the front cover of your book just taps into what I went through as a child. And I went, wow, are you okay? And she said, yeah, I'm fine. She didn't buy the book. She looked at me, I gave her a hug and then off she walked. And I thought to myself, that's lovely from the perspective. If she felt comfortable enough in that place to trust me without even knowing me, having read my book or anything else, then that for me was a wonderful byproduct of
of the power of, I guess, me being vulnerable and me showing others it's okay to tell your story and to communicate your story.
Amra (30:02)
you got a your welfare record as you know, from through freedom of information. So what it did official records match your memories or were there things that you found out that you didn't know? What was that process like for you going through that?
Warren (30:16)
I guess that's a two, there's a two part answer to that question. So we bought, we got hold of the, the, the record when I was 23 and we did that again for practical reasons. I wanted to buy a house and I needed to prove my originality and within that file was the authentication of my originality. And so that was the first practical reason. And as a 20, I think I was 25, I think I've gone on record saying I was 23, but I think I was 25 and
Because I had an outcome in mind and a practical outcome in mind, I wasn't really in the headspace where I wanted to read every document that was in the file. But I did take some time to, you know, 20 minutes here or 20 minutes there to just flick through it. And there were some things that I learned that I won't spoil the book because there's a particular anecdote in the book which will confront and surprise a lot of people about what I read in that file for the first time. So you know, answer your question, yes.
there are things that were recorded that were completely different to what I was told or I was led to believe as a child. that was just the facts. And then the added layer on top of that is that, yes, there are a lot of things that I recall differently or slightly differently, you know, and not all just about where I was or what I was doing, but how I felt emotionally. So.
Yes, absolutely. then fast forward 25, 30 years where we produced the book and it was incumbent on me, incumbent of me last year as we got to the editing stage to essentially catalogue that file and make sure that everything in the book that I was saying was as factually correct as it could be to make sure that, you know, I wasn't misrepresenting myself or misrepresenting others.
And I think that's, yeah, so there are a lot of things that I've had to calibrate, if you like, between memory and fact.
Amra (32:07)
And that's that's part of the writing process 'cause I I found myself in the same position where I was like, I thought this happened but then I actually found this or you know, and and I wanted to actually bring that in and and show that because you're living with one reality or with one perception and then you're finding out all this different information and it's just kind of yeah, interesting to process it all and and find a way of dealing with it. Did you have any advice for people who are, you know, researching
their own institutional trauma and wanting to go through this process of freedom of information.
Warren (32:40)
I think that that's your starting point. if you've been, if you had any kind of institutionalization, I think there's a lot of urban myth. There's a lot of, ⁓ again, subjective dispositions that other people within your life take. So, you know, I have family members that would, you know, would stand by their version of, you know, their version of events going back 30 years. But I think the interesting thing about that is that
all you're ever gonna get if you go to those people are the subjective nature of those comments and those thoughts and feelings. And so if you have any kind of institutional record like I do, then I think that's a really great starting point because it gives you a base, it gives you somewhere you can safely go back to. So when you do venture into conversations with others that you don't quite feel comfortable with or they upset you or they...
you take you off the path that you thought you were going down. You file those, whatever records you have are a great baseline and a great reference point back to where you might want to head. And I think that's a really cool thing because it doesn't involve people's emotions, their thoughts, their feelings. It just, it just involves fact because what's, now whether those facts are right on the page or not, that's a completely different discussion. But if you have,
the ability to access that type of information, no matter how confronting it might be, it's a good thing to have on your side. But I say that knowing that my life isn't half as traumatic as some of the people that might have these things at their disposal and it might not serve them psychologically to go back to those things from a health and wellbeing perspective. There are a lot of people in society that...
go through far more shocking things than I went through as a child, even as adults. And I think it's incumbent to make sure that, you know, we're not blindly just directing people back to sources of grief and sources, places where they might descend from emotionally and from a mental health perspective.
Amra (34:36)
Yeah, 'cause it does. I I had to go into counselling when I was writing my memoir. it took five years and and there was a lot. because you do go through so many yeah, so many things. so
A lot of writers are uncomfortable selling themselves, but ⁓ you weren't, you know, you were kind of talking about and and I think the other thing that a lot of writers struggle with, I know it's something that I struggled with, ⁓ which you sort of said earlier, is that we write and and it's this creative, beautiful experience, but at the end of the day we're selling something tangible, as you said, which is the book. and so a lot of people find it really hard to separate the product from the craft and the creativity. ⁓
And for you that was something that, you know, you could do. What tips do you have for others in terms of trying to do that?
Warren (35:24)
Well, I guess it's, like to use the analogy, it's a bit like being drafted to the AFL as a young bloke, you you kind of fall into this trap when you've completed something that hasn't quite worked through its full cycle of evolution or life cycle that you feel like, oh, I've made it.
You know, like, so when a young kid gets drafted to the AFL, they've worked their butts off for two or three years as juniors. People have seen the talent, people have seen the potential and they get through that first stage of being selected. And, you know, that's where a lot of kids are not so much anymore because there's such good help around footy clubs and, you know, these professional sporting organisations where, but in years gone by, know, kids get to that point and then all of a sudden the social acknowledgement and the...
know, the pats on the back would occur. But in reality, there's no work being done. The real work has only just started. So I think that's a really good analogy for writing a book is that, you know, producing the book is one thing and everybody deserves recognition for that because it's such a difficult thing to do. It's a really difficult thing. I mean, I've run my own business for 21 years that we started from scratch and writing the book is the single most difficult practical thing I've done. And so
Getting to that point is awesome. And when you have your book launch, whether that be with 20 of your family and friends, or whether that be a commercial publisher-backed book launch, it's an opportunity to stand there and absorb all of that recognition. But the reality is the work hasn't even started. And so I guess coming from a business background, I've been able to apply the same principles in building my brand. We created a brand image that was amazing, but it still hadn't made a sale.
And so 21 years later, I can stand here proudly and say the brand image hasn't changed, but the business has gone on to make thousands of sales and we have thousands of customers. And so I guess that's what I would say to people is that when you get to that point in the process where you feel like, I've done all the hard work, well, I'm sorry, but you actually haven't. And I guess it's not a criticism, it's more of an observation because...
Not everybody has my experience or others' experience and exposure to the commercial world. And all I've done is try to supplant some of that back into this process with the book. And I've gone along to, as you know, and I've made this comment to you privately, you know, I've got a few rules when I go to these book festivals and these book fairs. And one is you never sit down. You know, it drives me nuts watching people spend all this money and all this time and all this work.
going to book fairs and to flog their book and they're sitting down doing Sudoku or they're, know, it's, to me it's just mind numbing. So I guess, you know, without being too over the top about it, you're there to promote your book. You're there to connect with people. You're there. And it doesn't matter whether you make a sale today, but the impression that you give that one person could mean that they are in a bookstore in six months time and see your book.
and you left them with that happy disposition and they left feeling like even though they didn't buy your book, you weren't put out by it or you didn't feel like they were doing you in by not buying their book. So I think that to me is one of the things that was strikingly obvious when I went into these, the first couple of fairs that I did is that I couldn't believe all these people had done all this hard work. But yet they all, they just.
it kind of became apparent that they thought the book was just going to sell itself.
Amra (38:45)
Yes. Yeah. And I have to tell you I did not sit down once, those weekends and I mean I think
Warren (38:52)
And it's exhausting,
and it's exhausting, right?
Amra (38:54)
It's
exhausting. I think we'll said the the thing is you and I are both extroverts and we really love talking to people. Like, I am getting a little bit more quieter as I get older and maybe you're going through the same thing where we still love our quiet time, but I love talking to people. And so for me, really approaching it like that where it's just like I'm I'm here to connect, I'm here to talk to people, have a have a chat, you know, learn things, ⁓ and it was wonderful from that perspective too.
Warren (39:06)
So, yeah.
Yeah, and you have to, I think how you walk in has a great bearing on how you walk out. you know, I say this humbly, but to have a few of you, you know, tried and trusted festival goers walk up to me and say, we can feel your energy and we can see, you know, I was like, well, that's that's reinforcement, because I don't know what I'm doing. I just walked in, you know, with a table and a
a bunch of books and then the rest is up to you, right? So, you know, to have that, in one sense, I kind of feel little embarrassed on a couple of occasions, because it's that whole thing where you look across your shoulders and say, that guy's selling a few books, but why aren't I selling a few books? And vice versa. But at end of the day, you're there for a purpose. And I would say to anyone that's got through the really difficult task of publishing your book, get to work.
Amra (40:08)
Mm. So you've been doing, you know, we met during the book fair circuit. You've also been connecting with bookstores and getting your books into bookstores. What's been your strategy? How have you been doing that?
Warren (40:19)
I think direct communication. I guess I've got a sales canvassing background, picking the phone up and engaging with someone, you've got 30 seconds by the way, when you pick up a bookstore's phone number and they pick up on the other end of the line, you gotta remember that they're in an active shop environment and they're going to pass you on to somebody or they're going to take a minute to listen to you, but you won't get much more time than that. So it's really, really important that you're succinct.
I guess you're on point, but also you're warm. You have to be warm and not take things personally. If people sound too busy or can you call back or I'm sorry, we're not taking any self-published authors at the moment or any of those things, then you just have to see that it's a number. It only becomes an opportunity once they allow you to.
to have that opportunity. And so if they reject you, move on, move on quickly. There's hundreds of bookstores. Now to give you some perspective, in eight months I've probably ranked 55 or 60 bookstores and we've only got the book in 20 bookstores. So, yeah.
Amra (41:20)
It it is work. It really is. It is
work. And I don't know if you feel comfortable about talking about this on camera, but we had a conversation about the ways that you were approaching people for possible adaptation of your book. I don't know if you want to talk about it or not, but I I just thought it was brilliant. You really think outside of the box.
Warren (41:37)
Yeah, I'm happy to talk
So I was taught in sales very early in my sales career that if you take a bucket of water and you place it on the ground and you stare at it, it just remains still. But as soon as you put your hand in that bucket of water and you turn your hand around a number of times, you take your hand out, the momentum continues until it's run out. And so that, I guess, applies to every part of
what I'm doing with the book, whether it be festivals and book fairs, whether it be, I've just done a podcast with Commercial Radio Network in Adelaide that happened through our Instagram activity. It doesn't matter what element of what you're doing and production if you like, or interest in the production rights of your book. It's a bit cocky to be fair. It's a little bit assumptive to think you're just gonna walk out into the world and-
you know, everyone's gonna stop what they're doing and because you've written a book and all of a sudden your book's gonna be on the big screen. That's not really the expectation. But it's kinda like this, if you don't start somewhere, you don't get anywhere. And so I've kind of my whole life because of my institutionalization come from the perspective of why not? Why not me? Why not me? And that's been a really...
solid strategy with my business, with my life. And it's, if you ask my friends and family, I've had some ridiculous experiences in my life, positive experiences in my life because of the, not me? And so, you know, believe in what you've done. you've taken the effort and invested the emotional effort in getting your book to the point that you have, then continue to believe in it.
That's the one thing I would say. So yeah, don't be afraid to approach people. To give you an idea, I've got a concentrated weekly effort on LinkedIn where I'm connecting with, because my book is obviously a social welfare, I've said social welfare interests, so I'm connecting with social welfare, the social welfare industry. I'm also connecting with writers and screenplay people and softly introducing the book. Now, if people don't respond or they don't accept your,
request to connect, that's okay. But you know, a lifetime in sales has told me that, or taught me that life is a numbers game. So do the numbers.
Amra (43:51)
I love that. And also like I I play the lotto every week and I'm like, well if I'm willing to play the lotto and think that it might lead to something, why am I not willing to try, you know, contacting, doing a called call, contacting people, getting myself out there, making those
Warren (44:06)
Why do you
think authors and people that get their book to that point all of a sudden become reluctant? Do you think it's lack of belief in what they've done or a lack of confidence?
Amra (44:16)
Yeah, I think it's a lack of confidence. Like, even though I'm an extrovert and I'm very comfortable talking to people, when I first you're gonna laugh at this, but when I first ⁓ started as an indie author, I created an admin assistant who was emailing people
Warren (44:33)
How good.
You were AI before AI became a thing. How good.
Amra (44:37)
Yes! I was
just like so embarrassed at emailing people and going like, here's my book, look at my book, and so I invented an admin assistant who was contacting people on my behalf. and it took me about a year to kind of work through that. And I'm now ⁓ better at it, but I'm I'm
you know, a bit scattergun in my approach. I need to be ⁓ bit like I I love what you're saying in terms of like you've got things that you're doing every week and and ⁓
things that you're implementing every week where you're not slowing down on the marketing and and that's something that ⁓ I do. I kind of do a focus on the marketing, then I take a step back. but you were also talking about, you know, you are giving this book another year, we like this is the book you're giving all your attention, all of your you know, publicity, all of your motivation. And then I think you said you were going to work on another ⁓ book.
Warren (45:36)
I it's a little bit like if you take a business approach. So I've given myself two years and I think the reason I've given myself two years is because probably the first thing I'd say is that the expectation when you first finish your book is everything's just gonna happen. But it's not like that at It doesn't even work like that in the commercial publishing world. Like movies, for example. Movies are quite often written and drawn up five, six, seven years before they actually hit the screen.
And so people underestimate this whole, I guess, life cycle of what's supposed to happen. And they kind of go, ⁓ that's not working. I guess it's like turning up to your first book fair and selling five books and people go, that was a failure. So they go, I don't want to do that again. But hang on, you've only just turned up once. so, I mean, I have to say humbly, that didn't happen to me. We sold 25 books in our first book fair.
Amra (46:24)
No, that did not
happen to you. I kept coming up to you and going, How many? And you're like, This many and I'm like, I've gotta work harder and so I got to my table.
Warren (46:30)
Yeah, look, I
guess, ⁓ and I, you know, I guess the thing where I always took, I think this is the thing about publishing that I've learned is that it sort of originates as a cottage industry. But if you take a cottage approach, that's not going to work because it is a commercial industry. And so I always like my business when I started my business, you have to look like you've been there forever. You have to look like you are as good as the best in
the industry. And so when the choices came, when we published the book to either go to good quality stock or cheap stock, because we didn't want to invest any money in the book, I went quality stock all day long. Because I wanted people to pick the book up and go, this is before they even read it. didn't matter what they thought of the book, but was it well produced? Because that's the first sort of, how would you put it, recognition point for the reader.
is to go, I like what I'm feeling? Do I like what I'm picking up? And a lot of people in business and in industry, they'll spend less money, which means they'll get less result because they don't understand the psychology of value. And I guess that's what you have to understand as a fledgling author walking into this industry is you've got to create your own value if you're self-publishing. You know, you can be a bit lazy when you...
get, pick up a book deal. I assume I've never had a book deal, but because every, you've got a team of people that are, you know, formatting that and taking it to market. You look, and I can say this humbly. A lot of people have compared my book to Boy Swallows Universe by Trent Dalton. Trent Dalton came from a absolute commercial background, know, Walkley winning journalist with a major ⁓ newspaper chain in the country. And, you know, had awesome resources at his disposal.
Do I feel like my book's any less than his because he's got those resources and I don't? Absolutely not. And ultimately you give value to what you produce before others recognize that value. So I guess I'd say to you that the best thing you can do ⁓ as a fledgling author is believe in what you're doing and stick to the task. And then...
You know, after two years of flogging a dead horse, like if your business isn't making money, you close the doors and you move forward in your life. Otherwise, you know, you're left with the traumatic scarring of not being able to see what everybody else can plainly see in clear sight. And that is that you either didn't do a good enough job with it or for one reason or another, it just hasn't worked. And that's okay. You know, great things come out of failure too.
Amra (48:58)
Well, I mean like, you know, that's the thing, you I'm at the point in my life, and maybe you are too, not scared of failure. I'm more scared of not trying and not putting stuff out there. Like I would rather try and ⁓ just, you know, see see things through and and we have these ideas, these visions, these these things that we wanna do. I wanna try them and not live in regret and not be like I haven't grown, I haven't learnt, I haven't, you know
Warren (49:06)
There you go.
Amra (49:25)
developed as a person. That's my
Warren (49:26)
Well, you have
to put your head on the pillow at night, Emma, and ask yourself the question, did I try hard enough? And ultimately, whether it works, doesn't, whether it wins awards, it doesn't win awards, whether you get asked to speak it functions or you don't, whether it sells 5,000 copies or 500 copies, ultimately the only person that is left with the feeling of what you did or what you didn't do is you. That's it.
Amra (49:31)
Yeah.
Yeah. Well, I really want to thank you so much. ⁓ you are such an inspiration. I met you and I was just like this person. You have like a light in you and it's just such a joy connecting with you and feeling your energy. and just it's been so good to learn from you and I'm I'm walking away and I'm like, I I need to make a little choice.
Every every week, what are my what are my little tasks that I need to do? ⁓ and can you just hold up a copy of the book ⁓ close to the screen and so we can just see it? So it's fifteen feet tall and we've got a photo of you. How old are you in that photo?
Warren (50:18)
that we can.
I think that's, I'm six years old then. I guess the reason we selected this photo was because if you really look at this little boy, he looks full of joy with a big smile on his face and he's reasonably well dressed. But that hides the reality. If you really pay close attention to the haircut, it's horrendous. And it does speak to, you know, I guess the...
the boy inside the boy, so to speak, what you see is not what is really going on with that little boy. So, and I must say the image and the cup has been really, really well received. We're really pleased with how it's, and it's captivated people. we're wrapped with the image.
Amra (51:07)
And also just the title, there was a story behind the title.
Warren (51:10)
Yeah, and I'm not going to give that away because that's in the first line of the book, Amra, as you know. But it does, people seem to think that, you know, the book being a memoir of overcoming abandonment and institutionalisation and child trauma is, you know, me getting to this place of feeling 15 feet tall. Well, that's not the case at all. It really does speak to, it's the opening line of the book and it does speak to a physical circumstance I found myself in and the things that were around me at the time.
And it's been really well received as a really powerful opening to the book, given that there's a photograph of the very thing that we talk about adjacent to it.
Amra (51:45)
Lovely. Well thank you so much for being a part of this interview and for sharing so much of your wisdom and knowledge. It's been lovely getting to know you.
Warren (51:54)
Thanks, Emra. I really appreciate it. Thank you.
Amra (51:56)
Thank you.
Today on the podcast, I'm speaking with Warren Rankin, author of 15 feet tall, a memoir written by a Naranjeti man exploring childhood abandonment, foster care, trauma, identity survival, and what it means to rebuild a life after growing up without stability. What fascinated me about Warren's story isn't just the memoir itself, but the way he's approached authorship. He's not coming from a literary or academic background. He built a business first,
then turned to storytelling and has approached publishing with a really direct entrepreneurial mindset. So today we're talking about writing trauma honestly without becoming trapped by it, the emotional cost of memoir, masculinity and vulnerability, and the realities of marketing and direct selling your own story in a crowded publishing landscape. Welcome Warren ⁓ so we met at
Warren (01:27)
Hello, Emrah.
Amra (01:30)
Bookfair first and then Clunes and had just the most wonderful chats and I learnt so much from you about direct selling so I'm really excited to talk to you about the memoir but also all the lessons that you've got about the approach that you have taken in terms of getting your book out there. but first I wanted to sort of talk about your decision to tell the story and and why did you decide it had to become a book and your writing journey.
journey.
Warren (01:56)
Well, that goes back 10 years. So that goes back to, you know, being on a plane on a overseas trip and with Melissa, my partner, my long-term partner sitting next to me and me opening up my iPad and just, you know, scribbling away or typing away. And she looked over and said, what are you doing? And I said, well, think I'm going to write a book. And she kind of looked at me and giggled and said, you are. And that's a common sort of, that's been a common response.
30 years with Melissa with anything I do, but probably the thing that she understood and understands implicitly is that when I decide to do something, I can't do it. And so I decided 10 years ago that I thought that I'd lived a life that was a little bit different and was a little bit unique. And that had sort of drawn a parent on me more and more as I sort of gotten older. And I thought, well, let's just start to put this down.
I never really did it with any kind of focused intent. I kind of, you know, went along and, you know, probably plane trips were the thing, you know, to have an hour or two hours and sitting there idly. And it was a way of me being able to sort of while the time away. And that happened sporadically for the best part of the next seven or eight years.
Amra (03:06)
Mm. I think like what what I was struck by was what you said, realizing that your story was not, you know, that's unusual, it's got you've got something to say. I remember going through that myself where as you become an adult and you talk to more people, you kinda have that moment where you look back on your childhood and you're like, ⁓
That's different. That's unusual, is it? and you sort of start thinking, maybe there's something there and and you know, writing that story. Did you find the process of writing, ⁓ like for me it was very cathartic and it really helped me process a lot of things?
Warren (03:38)
Not
initially, because the reality of writing was just a, was a, you know, I wouldn't even say it was a passion project because I wasn't that passionate about it. was just an occasional thing that I would do. And, you know, I think I started writing at around 40, 41, and I'm now 54 on Friday. And so, you know, the reality of that first seven or eight years was literally just idle time. And so it wasn't really...
had this active thought process where I was thinking this is good for me or I'm getting something out of this. Because at that point it was just a loose concept on an iPad. And it wasn't really until I put it down and I left it alone for a couple of years. And there were reasons why I left it alone. And that was because I thought to myself, who writes a memoir at 48? who's at 48, who has the right to...
go out into the world and say, look at me, look at what I've done. so I kind of, and it was also like the midlife crisis thing where I went, geez, if I finished this, what happens next? And is my life over? And you know, is that the end of the story? And so I kind of pushed back on, and when I said pushed back, didn't actively push back on it. I throw it in bin or anything like that. I just kind of put it away and ignored it. And then, you know, push came to shove when a couple of three,
life-changing situations all happened within sort of a 12, 18 month period. And that coupled with, I guess, late life coming of age into who I was and what my life represented and what I meant to other people that I thought, you know, it's really incumbent upon me to put this down for others, not so much just myself.
Amra (05:17)
Yeah, I mean that's the thing. You you you start writing the memoir, you feel like you have to. then you start the second guessing and and that whole process. And then there's the memoir that you write and then the process of editing and producing it. What was that like for you?
Warren (05:32)
Well, that's,
you I guess the catalyst, you you talk about the, you know, the circuit breaker was the, I guess the timidity or the, you know, the reluctance to finish it. And then, you know, the circuit breaker and that process was those three traumatic things that occurred in the business. And I guess that's when the intense really started was when I committed to it early last year. We got back from Christmas holidays and I went, right, it's time to nail this.
I'd had enough of mates on the golf course or in the pub or family members saying to me, where's the book? You've been occasionally speaking about this book, where is it? And so I kind of felt compelled after the three life changing things for a number of reasons. One was to put it down for my family. The other one was to get the monkey off the back, so to speak, in regards to, I don't like leaving things in life unfinished. And so there was a resolve to just...
knuckled down and I guess that's when the real emotion of the book and what the book meant to me sort of connected. kind of, you know, really the roosters, you know, the chickens came home to roost so to speak. I, you know, I buckled down for three months. I've, you know, I'd written 40,000 words in eight years and I wrote a hundred thousand words in three months. And so that then last year became this kind of, let's just get it finished. And it was a real focused intent for me.
Amra (06:49)
Mm. I can also really relate to the midlife crisis. because everything I'm doing now in my creative world is my midlife crisis. And and there's that thing of the life changes, the things happening, the the intent and all of that. And then there's just this pure joy where you get to this point where you're like, I don't care. I'm just putting it all there. Yeah, and and I think you've reached that point because you are really
Warren (07:08)
Yeah. Yep.
Amra (07:14)
Like when I saw you at the book fairs and and the way that you talk about your story and you sell and connect with people, like you're fully there, ⁓ fully committed.
Warren (07:24)
I think that's a practical thing for me. Growing up with the story that, I mean, my early life was full of trauma. And so the practical nature of my life has sort of taken over and from a very early age, I mean, there were things to do as a kid, even breaking out of the system that I was in and then moving in through life, even when I was getting into trouble because my EQ wasn't quite matching my IQ or vice versa.
there were still practical outcomes. And so I've led a life of practical outcome, know, starting a business from scratch and seeing that through. So that kind of, you know, if that looks second nature, it's because it is, because I've my whole life approaching my life like that way. And I guess the, you know, the balancing part of that is that while I'm doing things, I'm not having to emotionally get involved in all the trauma. And one thing the book that...
kind of derailed me a little bit as a human being was that it forced me to get involved in the trauma. Because in order to tell the authentic story of my life, I had to invest and I had to put myself back in those places and those feelings and those thoughts. I couldn't just practically move away from the reality of what those things were and still are. So, you know, thank you for, it's lovely to hear that. But I think it's, you know, it really is a practical thing. And I guess when I see
you know, walking into those environments fresh. I've got no battle scars. You know, I walk into those, you know, there's festivals, book fairs, that sort of thing with my own intention. And I'm not coloured by coerciveness from others or I don't feel any limitation or need to slip back into the crowd. I'm there to, I guess, present, you know, put my best foot forward and present what I've spent the last 10 years creating.
Amra (09:04)
Yeah, that's that's true, 'cause you know, when you're in the publishing industry, and you have been working in it, there's there's this whole shoulds and shouldn'ts and yeah, you do put limitations on yourself and it is really hard to kind of that's something that I've I've gone through. and I think I've reached the other side, but yeah, it it does take a while. so that those are the benefits in a sense of you just focusing on the story, focusing on telling what is important to you and and just getting it out there. I wanted to ask about how do you meet
your identity as an indigenous man.
Warren (09:33)
That's a really interesting question. Something that, you know, whilst a lot of the book has been wrote, how would you put it subconsciously, if you like, I've had to put a conscious effort into what that means in the book and what that means to the people around me and not only to the people around me, but to the potential audience of the book. So, you know, people that might pick the book up and make their own judgements and assumptions on what my intentions are, what my purpose is, you know.
my character is, what my true ancestry is, all those things. It's a pretty delicate, it's been delicate kind of thought process and one that I'm very respectful of. I'm certainly not, you know, my book is, whilst my book is, you know, originates as an Aboriginal story by an Aboriginal man, it's not a fully Aboriginal story. There are many other elements to my book that make it not just about my Indigenous.
heritage and, and connect and look, know, connection, lack of connection to that. So, you know, I was very conscious to make sure that I didn't put myself in places or put the book in places that would offend or, or that people could misinterpret my intentions with the outcome of.
Amra (10:41)
Yeah. I can relate to that too in terms of my my ⁓ novel being about a massacre, a genocide that happened in in my community, but I'm not actually a survivor. I'm coming through it from research. And so I when there are the remembrances, I don't feel comfortable promoting my book during that time because it just feels too commercial and too crass. yeah, so it's it's something to mediate.
Warren (11:05)
I think integrity is like everything in life. And so, you know, at the end of the day, your responsibility is first to yourself and your family. And if you're feeling that organically, then I guess that's the right call. Instinctively, we're all led instinctively. And if your instincts are tied to your values, then, you know, one plus one is two, right? So, you know, I don't think it's unreasonable at all to have these boundaries in place where you are governed.
by other people because not everybody is going to see your intent the way that you mean it. And whilst your obligation is to yourself and your family first, you do have an obligation to society to make sure that you are placing yourself within society in the right context.
Amra (11:48)
Now this is something I grappled with myself, so I'm I'm interested to hear your perspective. How do you write honestly about family without turning the book into revenge?
Warren (11:58)
That's a really good question because I think it's well documented in my story that there are people that have let me down and left me behind and you know, there's a lot of collateral damage personally with that that comes along. And so I think if you're writing it with the right intentions and you're writing it with authentically, I think it's okay to leave things where they lie.
You know, if you've, if at the end of the day, relationships have failed and people no longer connect and you can't force, you know, you can't force those things. So for me, it's more about the fact that what's to gain by, what's to gain by being seen to be vindictive, regretful. I think you have to get to a place when you write a memoir specifically, I think you can get lost in.
in fiction it's a little bit different because you can cloak your intentions and your emotions in characters and plot lines and all that sort of stuff. But in a memoir, it's pretty easy for others to see through, you know, your intent. And so if you're doing your family and yourself any modicum of respect, then I think you've got to hold yourself respect. And part of that responsibility is to not force the readers into your issues.
They can observe them, but you shouldn't be trying to coerce people or force people into emotionally being involved in those things. When you read someone else's memoir, you're an observer. That's all you are. And so it's unfair of the author then to try and drag people's judgment one way or the other through the story. So yeah, I guess I kind of always had this governing factor over me that was self-
regulated to want to make it a neutral positive story, not a neutral negative story, if that makes sense.
Amra (13:44)
Yeah. I was writing my memoir my whole life and one of the versions when I was in my twenties was titled Sins of the Mother. Slightly judgmental. And ⁓ it was only in my thirties when I was a mother myself that I was able to look at my mother with empathy and compassion and see her perspective. whereas up until then I was always just viewing it as the child and just from that lens of betrayal.
Warren (13:52)
Yeah.
Amra (14:11)
Bio.
Warren (14:12)
Well, and it's a reactionary position too, because what you're doing is you're using the privilege of being able to put it into writing for your own reasons. And I think it's a bit like the email you should never send. You write that initial email and you draft it and you sleep on it and you wait till the next day. Well, memoirs are a little bit more, I guess, they take a lot longer to kind of evolve.
So you've got that opportunity in a memoir when you go through the editing process to actually be objective. So you write it subjectively, sure, but then you must be objective when you edit it because, and like anything, it doesn't read back always the way you wrote it or intended to write it. So that editing process is a really good fail safe for people. And I guess a get out of jail card, if you feel like you're a bit...
in a bad place when you've written that body of text and then you go back to it a year later or six months later or however long period it is, you get a fresh set of eyes on it. that's where I guess a really good editor helps as well. There are a lot of people that wanna do everything in their book themselves because they can't let go. It's really important to let go of the process once you've put those words down and let a fresh set of eyes and someone else look at it.
Amra (15:31)
So what was your process in terms of getting all of that support to get it pr to production?
Warren (15:35)
Well, mine was serendipitous because I kind of went along and found the components as I went along. I always knew that knowing what I know about the business world and the gatekeeping that exists in all industries, not just the publishing industry. I faced that as a young businessman in my own industry in the building game in Adelaide. But I kind of knew early that
for me to get this story out there, I had to do it off my volition. And if I was gonna be happy with the way the outcome or the consequential outcome of where this finished, then I was gonna have to get my hands dirty and roll my sleeves up and really get into the process. I concentrated on writing it first. I think that's the interesting thing. I probably wrote 75 % of it before I approached an editor and that editor kinda.
just turned up through a mutual business connection. know, someone put something up on Facebook, hey, I've got this editor and she's looking for work. And as it turns out, she was the only person I approached to edit the book. it was, you know, and there are a lot of things that happen organically and serendipitously that you just go, I can either vet this light to its core where I, you know, where I auditioned 15 people for the right outcome because I'm
you know, concerned about who might get their hands on it. Or I can just go with my gut. And I went with my gut on the editing process and Hari Tee, who's originally from England and lives in Adelaide. You know, she'd had a fair track record. And when I discovered her, was in a place where she was ready to receive the book, not just professionally, but emotionally. And that was in respect to my book was really important.
If it had have been a black and white process where I was given a fixed number and an outcome, that would have been great if that was the only thing I knew. But because Hari was so compassionate and so ⁓ generous in offering that compassion in the early part of the process, that gave me this instinctive kind of wrap its arms around me kind of feel where I went, righto, let's roll with this. Now, if we'd had gotten like all relationships,
if we'd have gotten three quarters of the way through the process and it just didn't feel right, then I guess you revisited it as you go. But from an editing perspective, she just felt like the right option and sometimes that's life.
Amra (17:51)
That's something that I've because I've done a lot of writing workshops and I've been approached by a lot of people who suffered ⁓ incredible trauma and they want to write about it. and they have struggled to find the right person to help facilitate that and to help support them, you know, the wrong critique partners or writing groups. so that's something that's really important to highlight. It's not just about those professional qualifications. When when we're writing things that are, you know, to us it's just life.
This is not I mean, we know it's trauma, we've gone through it, but to us it's just life. You know. This is just the norm. whereas ⁓ a lot of people are like, my gosh, this is so trauma, which I understand, but I almost sometimes like get offended about where it's like, ⁓ my life is so difficult for you to read about, I must do content warnings.
Warren (18:41)
look,
I think in Hari's case, she gave me a fee and that fee changed a couple of times because of the sheer volume of content that she had to work through. And I was, and there's a little bit of give and take, you all professional relationships. I'm a builder, so I work with clients all the time in regards to their expectations versus what we've delivered and the gap that sometimes exists in between. And that's the old, you know, I thought that, you know, a client thinks, I thought, and the builder says, we're gonna do this. And then sometimes there's a gap. Well,
That happens across all professional relationships and all transactions. And I think the interesting thing about when you, the publishing industry is that like every industry, people want to, know, operators want to be efficient. So they say, these are the services we're prepared to provide for this fixed number. Well, Hari gave me a fixed number, but what she didn't buy into was the after hours messaging, direct messaging and the light bulbs that go off in the creative process where you just have this idea. if you don't,
process that idea or communicate that idea and test that idea with the person that's involved in the outcome, then you can lose that moment and you can lose the brilliance of that moment and how that transfers to the finished result. So, know, Harri was great from that perspective. She didn't just buy into the formal process of editing the book. She bought into the emotional ride that I was gonna take her on. And...
And I'm relentless, you know, I'm relentless in everything I do. And that's that practical thing we talked about before. You know, if you're going to stick your feet in the water, you put your bathers on, you go down to the beach. What's the point of just sticking your toe in the water? Like go for the swim. And so that's, guess, where Hari kind of strapped it. After a little while, I think her eyes kind of widened and she went, right, I'm either in or I'm out. And she, you know, luckily for me, she...
fully committed and whilst we have this little joke that you know she went a little bit over time as a lot of creatives do, I'm wrapped with the result and couldn't speak more highly of her through the process.
Amra (20:38)
good. I'm so happy. I think also that's a a really important point, for people who are searching for editors, especially for memoir, to take those things into consideration too. It's not
⁓ just the editing process. It's also that collaboration and that support that you might need yeah to to actually do what you need to do and think through a lot of things. Because I struggled with writing about my mum and about her mental illness and I was worried about writing it without exploiting her story and sensationalizing her story. and so I sought a mentor to support me with that. because you don't know what you don't know.
And it's
Warren (21:15)
And it
takes an extraordinary amount of discipline, I guess, for a memoir editor, because when someone writes their memoir, it's a little bit different to a journalist writing, doing a ghostwrite of a memoir or a biography, because the journalist is coming from an objective perspective. They're not coming from a subjective perspective. And so it's really incumbent on the editor when they're dealing with a, especially self-publishing author.
and someone who is autobiographical to stand back a little bit. And so there are number of times through our process that Hari went to, you know, she's English. her language and her word choice is specifically different to our Australian vernacular. And a couple of times where she, you know, replaced words and whatever else, I said, no, no, no, no, no,
authentically connect to me in the book. And so there are only a handful of those things that we had to discuss through the process. So that speaks to this sheer amount of discipline that she engaged herself to allow me to drive that process. And she was directed by me as the author.
Amra (22:20)
I love that. Now I wanted to move on to masculinity vulnerability and memoir and and you know men are often discouraged from emotional honesty. Was vulnerability difficult for you in the writing process?
Warren (22:35)
I
know in the writing process, I've got a 500 page file that was out of my hands before my life even started. So when I say out of, it wasn't 500 pages the whole way through my life, but that document started. And I think that's the interesting thing about the back cover of the book where you've got my institutionalized file number, which is also tattooed on my calf now. And that is that I was given this identity before I chose it. And so...
I had known it no different. So the vulnerability in living this life became again practical. It didn't become an emotional decision for me. It was a practical reality for me. And so the vulnerability has really only come post release because all of these new experiences for any human being in any field across the planet, that's where your vulnerability comes from is having the courage to put yourself in places that
Others might go, ⁓ but that's not the person we know knew 10 years ago. Well, that's not the person. So, you know, me popping up on podcasts, radio interviews, book launches, you know, in conversation events. I've got a couple this week that are significant with Reconciliation Week tomorrow and the History Month in South Australia on Friday. And those things are the things that bring out the vulnerability because they force you into places you're not comfortable.
Amra (23:47)
Think that's true when whenever you start something, because you know, my midlife crisis in terms of my publishing and podcast, and when you're doing something new, it is so uncomfortable. Like you you literally want to rip your own skin off and just be anywhere but doing that thing. And it's about keep doing it and keep, you know, learning and improving, and slowly it becomes comfortable.
But that that's that's the process of learning. That's the process of opening yourself up to new experiences. Unfortunately you can't get to that joy thing or to that point of things ⁓ being normal for you until you go through that whole uncomfortable process.
Warren (24:30)
Well, there's thousands of podcasts now. There are people all over the world now that, it started in books, self-help books and a lot of South psychology books. I started reading these things when I was in my late teens, early twenties. so, all this information is not new. It's been around forever. It's just that now our forms of communication are so much more direct and so much more accessible. So you can find this information everywhere. And essentially what you just described is just growth. It's just growth.
Amra (24:58)
Yes.
Warren (24:58)
That's
all that is. And as human beings, if you're not growing and life's standing still, well, that's okay for some, but for most of us, evolution doesn't work that way. So, getting down to the micro of each individual on the planet, it doesn't work for us either as individuals. So, I guess this is realisation that when you do new things, uncomfortability is...
It's just, it's a given. Like it's, you know, it's, you can't know what you don't know. You can't have experience in doing the things you haven't done yet. So all those things bring with it, I think excitement in the, the uncomfortability rather than apprehension.
Amra (25:39)
And I just also wanted to ask, have men responded differently to the memoir than women when you've interacted with readers who have read it and and contacted you?
Warren (25:48)
Yeah, that's a great question actually because you know with all the data analytics that you can now apply to your social feeds and all the rest of it, you know I've been in sales for you know 35 years and so data and analytics are my thing and I do take particular interest in Especially when you've got something physical. It's a physical object and you can measure really easily. It's not a feeling it's a it's a cold hard reality and
And so, yeah, it's about a two thirds response from women over men. But I think the wonderful thing about men's health in general now is that men are feeling more comfortable in seeking out help. They're more comfortable in communicating to other men what they're learning and what they're going through. And I think that is naturally bringing with it an openness to acknowledge.
other people's stories. And so, you know, you take Luke Bateman, the book guy on Instagram, who was, I think he was on the celebrity, Get Me Out Of Here or something like that a little while ago. You know, a guy in what is traditionally a feministic kind of coming out and saying, I read this great, you know, romance novel. mean, go back 10 years ago.
And the bloke still goes to the footy with his mates, eats a pie and drinks a beer, but men feel so much more safer in these kind of feminine spaces, traditionally feminine spaces now. And so, yeah, that's been an interesting watch for me because I'm a blokey bloke. My book is filled with 70s and 80s bloke themes and watching how blokes have...
read it and then acknowledged it and communicated that back to me has been really, really interesting.
Amra (27:29)
Is there any particular fan email that has really because I I had the experience of I wrote a memoir about the women in my family thinking I got an email from a Muslim Bangladeshi man who had gone through the court system for beating his wife and he said, you know
Like your father, I grew up in a culture where this was the way that we treated women and then came to Australia and found out, no, this is not the culture and we can't do this. And I was just awestruck by, you know, he he was reading the male perspective and connecting with ⁓ my domestically abusive father. Has anything like that happened with you where you're like, I didn't know that that was something?
Warren (28:00)
Anyway.
I've worked in people's homes for, I started in the book as you would have read, the thing that changed my life was knocking on people's doors as an 18 year old, sales canvassing. So I've been going into people's environments for 35 years and immersing myself in their environments. And the thing about that, answer to your question is people never feel so comfortable as they do in their own home. So I've had a lifetime of this kind of compassionate, empathetic.
necessity within my own makeup because, you know, I'm there to do a job and extract essentially a transaction out of a client. But at the same time, the magic in that is showing compassion and empathy towards those people. And that's how you connect and that's how you connect with authenticity. That's how you build trust. And so I already knew to a point that that would be a part of the feedback. Other people taking solace in the courage I've shown.
And when I say courage, I don't think I'm courageous. just think I've written my story. But others have certainly come forward and, know, in different measures, if you like, of, you know, you've opened a door that I never thought I'd be able to see through. You know, I went through this as a kid at book fair where I met you. I had a lady walk up and she just started crying in front of me. She didn't say anything. She just started crying. And I said, are you OK? And she said,
Yeah, she said, but that little boy on the front cover of your book just taps into what I went through as a child. And I went, wow, are you okay? And she said, yeah, I'm fine. She didn't buy the book. She looked at me, I gave her a hug and then off she walked. And I thought to myself, that's lovely from the perspective. If she felt comfortable enough in that place to trust me without even knowing me, having read my book or anything else, then that for me was a wonderful byproduct of
of the power of, I guess, me being vulnerable and me showing others it's okay to tell your story and to communicate your story.
Amra (30:02)
you got a your welfare record as you know, from through freedom of information. So what it did official records match your memories or were there things that you found out that you didn't know? What was that process like for you going through that?
Warren (30:16)
I guess that's a two, there's a two part answer to that question. So we bought, we got hold of the, the, the record when I was 23 and we did that again for practical reasons. I wanted to buy a house and I needed to prove my originality and within that file was the authentication of my originality. And so that was the first practical reason. And as a 20, I think I was 25, I think I've gone on record saying I was 23, but I think I was 25 and
Because I had an outcome in mind and a practical outcome in mind, I wasn't really in the headspace where I wanted to read every document that was in the file. But I did take some time to, you know, 20 minutes here or 20 minutes there to just flick through it. And there were some things that I learned that I won't spoil the book because there's a particular anecdote in the book which will confront and surprise a lot of people about what I read in that file for the first time. So you know, answer your question, yes.
there are things that were recorded that were completely different to what I was told or I was led to believe as a child. that was just the facts. And then the added layer on top of that is that, yes, there are a lot of things that I recall differently or slightly differently, you know, and not all just about where I was or what I was doing, but how I felt emotionally. So.
Yes, absolutely. then fast forward 25, 30 years where we produced the book and it was incumbent on me, incumbent of me last year as we got to the editing stage to essentially catalogue that file and make sure that everything in the book that I was saying was as factually correct as it could be to make sure that, you know, I wasn't misrepresenting myself or misrepresenting others.
And I think that's, yeah, so there are a lot of things that I've had to calibrate, if you like, between memory and fact.
Amra (32:07)
And that's that's part of the writing process 'cause I I found myself in the same position where I was like, I thought this happened but then I actually found this or you know, and and I wanted to actually bring that in and and show that because you're living with one reality or with one perception and then you're finding out all this different information and it's just kind of yeah, interesting to process it all and and find a way of dealing with it. Did you have any advice for people who are, you know, researching
their own institutional trauma and wanting to go through this process of freedom of information.
Warren (32:40)
I think that that's your starting point. if you've been, if you had any kind of institutionalization, I think there's a lot of urban myth. There's a lot of, ⁓ again, subjective dispositions that other people within your life take. So, you know, I have family members that would, you know, would stand by their version of, you know, their version of events going back 30 years. But I think the interesting thing about that is that
all you're ever gonna get if you go to those people are the subjective nature of those comments and those thoughts and feelings. And so if you have any kind of institutional record like I do, then I think that's a really great starting point because it gives you a base, it gives you somewhere you can safely go back to. So when you do venture into conversations with others that you don't quite feel comfortable with or they upset you or they...
you take you off the path that you thought you were going down. You file those, whatever records you have are a great baseline and a great reference point back to where you might want to head. And I think that's a really cool thing because it doesn't involve people's emotions, their thoughts, their feelings. It just, it just involves fact because what's, now whether those facts are right on the page or not, that's a completely different discussion. But if you have,
the ability to access that type of information, no matter how confronting it might be, it's a good thing to have on your side. But I say that knowing that my life isn't half as traumatic as some of the people that might have these things at their disposal and it might not serve them psychologically to go back to those things from a health and wellbeing perspective. There are a lot of people in society that...
go through far more shocking things than I went through as a child, even as adults. And I think it's incumbent to make sure that, you know, we're not blindly just directing people back to sources of grief and sources, places where they might descend from emotionally and from a mental health perspective.
Amra (34:36)
Yeah, 'cause it does. I I had to go into counselling when I was writing my memoir. it took five years and and there was a lot. because you do go through so many yeah, so many things. so
A lot of writers are uncomfortable selling themselves, but ⁓ you weren't, you know, you were kind of talking about and and I think the other thing that a lot of writers struggle with, I know it's something that I struggled with, ⁓ which you sort of said earlier, is that we write and and it's this creative, beautiful experience, but at the end of the day we're selling something tangible, as you said, which is the book. and so a lot of people find it really hard to separate the product from the craft and the creativity. ⁓
And for you that was something that, you know, you could do. What tips do you have for others in terms of trying to do that?
Warren (35:24)
Well, I guess it's, like to use the analogy, it's a bit like being drafted to the AFL as a young bloke, you you kind of fall into this trap when you've completed something that hasn't quite worked through its full cycle of evolution or life cycle that you feel like, oh, I've made it.
You know, like, so when a young kid gets drafted to the AFL, they've worked their butts off for two or three years as juniors. People have seen the talent, people have seen the potential and they get through that first stage of being selected. And, you know, that's where a lot of kids are not so much anymore because there's such good help around footy clubs and, you know, these professional sporting organisations where, but in years gone by, know, kids get to that point and then all of a sudden the social acknowledgement and the...
know, the pats on the back would occur. But in reality, there's no work being done. The real work has only just started. So I think that's a really good analogy for writing a book is that, you know, producing the book is one thing and everybody deserves recognition for that because it's such a difficult thing to do. It's a really difficult thing. I mean, I've run my own business for 21 years that we started from scratch and writing the book is the single most difficult practical thing I've done. And so
Getting to that point is awesome. And when you have your book launch, whether that be with 20 of your family and friends, or whether that be a commercial publisher-backed book launch, it's an opportunity to stand there and absorb all of that recognition. But the reality is the work hasn't even started. And so I guess coming from a business background, I've been able to apply the same principles in building my brand. We created a brand image that was amazing, but it still hadn't made a sale.
And so 21 years later, I can stand here proudly and say the brand image hasn't changed, but the business has gone on to make thousands of sales and we have thousands of customers. And so I guess that's what I would say to people is that when you get to that point in the process where you feel like, I've done all the hard work, well, I'm sorry, but you actually haven't. And I guess it's not a criticism, it's more of an observation because...
Not everybody has my experience or others' experience and exposure to the commercial world. And all I've done is try to supplant some of that back into this process with the book. And I've gone along to, as you know, and I've made this comment to you privately, you know, I've got a few rules when I go to these book festivals and these book fairs. And one is you never sit down. You know, it drives me nuts watching people spend all this money and all this time and all this work.
going to book fairs and to flog their book and they're sitting down doing Sudoku or they're, know, it's, to me it's just mind numbing. So I guess, you know, without being too over the top about it, you're there to promote your book. You're there to connect with people. You're there. And it doesn't matter whether you make a sale today, but the impression that you give that one person could mean that they are in a bookstore in six months time and see your book.
and you left them with that happy disposition and they left feeling like even though they didn't buy your book, you weren't put out by it or you didn't feel like they were doing you in by not buying their book. So I think that to me is one of the things that was strikingly obvious when I went into these, the first couple of fairs that I did is that I couldn't believe all these people had done all this hard work. But yet they all, they just.
it kind of became apparent that they thought the book was just going to sell itself.
Amra (38:45)
Yes. Yeah. And I have to tell you I did not sit down once, those weekends and I mean I think
Warren (38:52)
And it's exhausting,
and it's exhausting, right?
Amra (38:54)
It's
exhausting. I think we'll said the the thing is you and I are both extroverts and we really love talking to people. Like, I am getting a little bit more quieter as I get older and maybe you're going through the same thing where we still love our quiet time, but I love talking to people. And so for me, really approaching it like that where it's just like I'm I'm here to connect, I'm here to talk to people, have a have a chat, you know, learn things, ⁓ and it was wonderful from that perspective too.
Warren (39:06)
So, yeah.
Yeah, and you have to, I think how you walk in has a great bearing on how you walk out. you know, I say this humbly, but to have a few of you, you know, tried and trusted festival goers walk up to me and say, we can feel your energy and we can see, you know, I was like, well, that's that's reinforcement, because I don't know what I'm doing. I just walked in, you know, with a table and a
a bunch of books and then the rest is up to you, right? So, you know, to have that, in one sense, I kind of feel little embarrassed on a couple of occasions, because it's that whole thing where you look across your shoulders and say, that guy's selling a few books, but why aren't I selling a few books? And vice versa. But at end of the day, you're there for a purpose. And I would say to anyone that's got through the really difficult task of publishing your book, get to work.
Amra (40:08)
Mm. So you've been doing, you know, we met during the book fair circuit. You've also been connecting with bookstores and getting your books into bookstores. What's been your strategy? How have you been doing that?
Warren (40:19)
I think direct communication. I guess I've got a sales canvassing background, picking the phone up and engaging with someone, you've got 30 seconds by the way, when you pick up a bookstore's phone number and they pick up on the other end of the line, you gotta remember that they're in an active shop environment and they're going to pass you on to somebody or they're going to take a minute to listen to you, but you won't get much more time than that. So it's really, really important that you're succinct.
I guess you're on point, but also you're warm. You have to be warm and not take things personally. If people sound too busy or can you call back or I'm sorry, we're not taking any self-published authors at the moment or any of those things, then you just have to see that it's a number. It only becomes an opportunity once they allow you to.
to have that opportunity. And so if they reject you, move on, move on quickly. There's hundreds of bookstores. Now to give you some perspective, in eight months I've probably ranked 55 or 60 bookstores and we've only got the book in 20 bookstores. So, yeah.
Amra (41:20)
It it is work. It really is. It is
work. And I don't know if you feel comfortable about talking about this on camera, but we had a conversation about the ways that you were approaching people for possible adaptation of your book. I don't know if you want to talk about it or not, but I I just thought it was brilliant. You really think outside of the box.
Warren (41:37)
Yeah, I'm happy to talk
So I was taught in sales very early in my sales career that if you take a bucket of water and you place it on the ground and you stare at it, it just remains still. But as soon as you put your hand in that bucket of water and you turn your hand around a number of times, you take your hand out, the momentum continues until it's run out. And so that, I guess, applies to every part of
what I'm doing with the book, whether it be festivals and book fairs, whether it be, I've just done a podcast with Commercial Radio Network in Adelaide that happened through our Instagram activity. It doesn't matter what element of what you're doing and production if you like, or interest in the production rights of your book. It's a bit cocky to be fair. It's a little bit assumptive to think you're just gonna walk out into the world and-
you know, everyone's gonna stop what they're doing and because you've written a book and all of a sudden your book's gonna be on the big screen. That's not really the expectation. But it's kinda like this, if you don't start somewhere, you don't get anywhere. And so I've kind of my whole life because of my institutionalization come from the perspective of why not? Why not me? Why not me? And that's been a really...
solid strategy with my business, with my life. And it's, if you ask my friends and family, I've had some ridiculous experiences in my life, positive experiences in my life because of the, not me? And so, you know, believe in what you've done. you've taken the effort and invested the emotional effort in getting your book to the point that you have, then continue to believe in it.
That's the one thing I would say. So yeah, don't be afraid to approach people. To give you an idea, I've got a concentrated weekly effort on LinkedIn where I'm connecting with, because my book is obviously a social welfare, I've said social welfare interests, so I'm connecting with social welfare, the social welfare industry. I'm also connecting with writers and screenplay people and softly introducing the book. Now, if people don't respond or they don't accept your,
request to connect, that's okay. But you know, a lifetime in sales has told me that, or taught me that life is a numbers game. So do the numbers.
Amra (43:51)
I love that. And also like I I play the lotto every week and I'm like, well if I'm willing to play the lotto and think that it might lead to something, why am I not willing to try, you know, contacting, doing a called call, contacting people, getting myself out there, making those
Warren (44:06)
Why do you
think authors and people that get their book to that point all of a sudden become reluctant? Do you think it's lack of belief in what they've done or a lack of confidence?
Amra (44:16)
Yeah, I think it's a lack of confidence. Like, even though I'm an extrovert and I'm very comfortable talking to people, when I first you're gonna laugh at this, but when I first ⁓ started as an indie author, I created an admin assistant who was emailing people
Warren (44:33)
How good.
You were AI before AI became a thing. How good.
Amra (44:37)
Yes! I was
just like so embarrassed at emailing people and going like, here's my book, look at my book, and so I invented an admin assistant who was contacting people on my behalf. and it took me about a year to kind of work through that. And I'm now ⁓ better at it, but I'm I'm
you know, a bit scattergun in my approach. I need to be ⁓ bit like I I love what you're saying in terms of like you've got things that you're doing every week and and ⁓
things that you're implementing every week where you're not slowing down on the marketing and and that's something that ⁓ I do. I kind of do a focus on the marketing, then I take a step back. but you were also talking about, you know, you are giving this book another year, we like this is the book you're giving all your attention, all of your you know, publicity, all of your motivation. And then I think you said you were going to work on another ⁓ book.
Warren (45:36)
I it's a little bit like if you take a business approach. So I've given myself two years and I think the reason I've given myself two years is because probably the first thing I'd say is that the expectation when you first finish your book is everything's just gonna happen. But it's not like that at It doesn't even work like that in the commercial publishing world. Like movies, for example. Movies are quite often written and drawn up five, six, seven years before they actually hit the screen.
And so people underestimate this whole, I guess, life cycle of what's supposed to happen. And they kind of go, ⁓ that's not working. I guess it's like turning up to your first book fair and selling five books and people go, that was a failure. So they go, I don't want to do that again. But hang on, you've only just turned up once. so, I mean, I have to say humbly, that didn't happen to me. We sold 25 books in our first book fair.
Amra (46:24)
No, that did not
happen to you. I kept coming up to you and going, How many? And you're like, This many and I'm like, I've gotta work harder and so I got to my table.
Warren (46:30)
Yeah, look, I
guess, ⁓ and I, you know, I guess the thing where I always took, I think this is the thing about publishing that I've learned is that it sort of originates as a cottage industry. But if you take a cottage approach, that's not going to work because it is a commercial industry. And so I always like my business when I started my business, you have to look like you've been there forever. You have to look like you are as good as the best in
the industry. And so when the choices came, when we published the book to either go to good quality stock or cheap stock, because we didn't want to invest any money in the book, I went quality stock all day long. Because I wanted people to pick the book up and go, this is before they even read it. didn't matter what they thought of the book, but was it well produced? Because that's the first sort of, how would you put it, recognition point for the reader.
is to go, I like what I'm feeling? Do I like what I'm picking up? And a lot of people in business and in industry, they'll spend less money, which means they'll get less result because they don't understand the psychology of value. And I guess that's what you have to understand as a fledgling author walking into this industry is you've got to create your own value if you're self-publishing. You know, you can be a bit lazy when you...
get, pick up a book deal. I assume I've never had a book deal, but because every, you've got a team of people that are, you know, formatting that and taking it to market. You look, and I can say this humbly. A lot of people have compared my book to Boy Swallows Universe by Trent Dalton. Trent Dalton came from a absolute commercial background, know, Walkley winning journalist with a major ⁓ newspaper chain in the country. And, you know, had awesome resources at his disposal.
Do I feel like my book's any less than his because he's got those resources and I don't? Absolutely not. And ultimately you give value to what you produce before others recognize that value. So I guess I'd say to you that the best thing you can do ⁓ as a fledgling author is believe in what you're doing and stick to the task. And then...
You know, after two years of flogging a dead horse, like if your business isn't making money, you close the doors and you move forward in your life. Otherwise, you know, you're left with the traumatic scarring of not being able to see what everybody else can plainly see in clear sight. And that is that you either didn't do a good enough job with it or for one reason or another, it just hasn't worked. And that's okay. You know, great things come out of failure too.
Amra (48:58)
Well, I mean like, you know, that's the thing, you I'm at the point in my life, and maybe you are too, not scared of failure. I'm more scared of not trying and not putting stuff out there. Like I would rather try and ⁓ just, you know, see see things through and and we have these ideas, these visions, these these things that we wanna do. I wanna try them and not live in regret and not be like I haven't grown, I haven't learnt, I haven't, you know
Warren (49:06)
There you go.
Amra (49:25)
developed as a person. That's my
Warren (49:26)
Well, you have
to put your head on the pillow at night, Emma, and ask yourself the question, did I try hard enough? And ultimately, whether it works, doesn't, whether it wins awards, it doesn't win awards, whether you get asked to speak it functions or you don't, whether it sells 5,000 copies or 500 copies, ultimately the only person that is left with the feeling of what you did or what you didn't do is you. That's it.
Amra (49:31)
Yeah.
Yeah. Well, I really want to thank you so much. ⁓ you are such an inspiration. I met you and I was just like this person. You have like a light in you and it's just such a joy connecting with you and feeling your energy. and just it's been so good to learn from you and I'm I'm walking away and I'm like, I I need to make a little choice.
Every every week, what are my what are my little tasks that I need to do? ⁓ and can you just hold up a copy of the book ⁓ close to the screen and so we can just see it? So it's fifteen feet tall and we've got a photo of you. How old are you in that photo?
Warren (50:18)
that we can.
I think that's, I'm six years old then. I guess the reason we selected this photo was because if you really look at this little boy, he looks full of joy with a big smile on his face and he's reasonably well dressed. But that hides the reality. If you really pay close attention to the haircut, it's horrendous. And it does speak to, you know, I guess the...
the boy inside the boy, so to speak, what you see is not what is really going on with that little boy. So, and I must say the image and the cup has been really, really well received. We're really pleased with how it's, and it's captivated people. we're wrapped with the image.
Amra (51:07)
And also just the title, there was a story behind the title.
Warren (51:10)
Yeah, and I'm not going to give that away because that's in the first line of the book, Amra, as you know. But it does, people seem to think that, you know, the book being a memoir of overcoming abandonment and institutionalisation and child trauma is, you know, me getting to this place of feeling 15 feet tall. Well, that's not the case at all. It really does speak to, it's the opening line of the book and it does speak to a physical circumstance I found myself in and the things that were around me at the time.
And it's been really well received as a really powerful opening to the book, given that there's a photograph of the very thing that we talk about adjacent to it.
Amra (51:45)
Lovely. Well thank you so much for being a part of this interview and for sharing so much of your wisdom and knowledge. It's been lovely getting to know you.
Warren (51:54)
Thanks, Emra. I really appreciate it. Thank you.
Amra (51:56)
Thank you.