Writing urban fantasy full-time: a conversation with P.L matthews
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You can listen above or on your favourite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
Subscribe: Spotify | Apple | RSS | More
You can listen above or on your favourite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
Show notes
In this engaging conversation, Amra Pajalic chats with indie author P.L. Matthews about her journey in writing urban fantasy mysteries. They explore the challenges and joys of indie publishing, the importance of community, and the creative process behind storytelling. Paola shares insights on cultural representation, the significance of research, and the transition to full-time writing. The discussion also touches on the role of translation, the impact of audiobooks, and the daily routines of a full-time author, culminating in valuable lessons learned throughout their writing journeys.
Takeaways
Paola writes urban fantasy mysteries set in Sydney.
She emphasizes the importance of reading within your genre.
Writing is a continuous learning process.
Cultural representation is vital in storytelling.
Research is essential for authenticity in writing.
Transitioning to full-time writing requires careful planning.
Building a supportive writing community is crucial.
Translation can expand the reach of indie authors.
Audiobooks provide a new avenue for storytelling.
Growth in writing comes from learning and adapting.
Takeaways
Paola writes urban fantasy mysteries set in Sydney.
She emphasizes the importance of reading within your genre.
Writing is a continuous learning process.
Cultural representation is vital in storytelling.
Research is essential for authenticity in writing.
Transitioning to full-time writing requires careful planning.
Building a supportive writing community is crucial.
Translation can expand the reach of indie authors.
Audiobooks provide a new avenue for storytelling.
Growth in writing comes from learning and adapting.
Connect with P.L. Matthews
I’m chatting with P. L. Matthews — Paola — an Australian indie author crafting cosy urban-fantasy mysteries set right here in Sydney. She’s someone who grew up with a mother who could allegedly see fairies in the garden, wrote award-winning stories in her twenties, stepped away from writing for years, and then quietly returned to the page like someone slipping back into a secret world.
Paola writes the way she lives: with creativity spilling out in every direction. When she’s not working on her Green Witch Mysteries or drafting a brand-new series, she’s at the piano, painting with her community group, dancing around the house, or collaborating with translators across the world. And yes — chai tea is basically her bloodstream at this point.
What hooked me about her story is the honesty behind it. Writing full-time has been the hardest thing she’s ever done. Editing drives her mad. The messy middle of a manuscript slows her to a crawl. And yet she still shows up — every day — because storytelling is where she feels most like herself.
In this episode, we dive into the magic of beginnings, the realities of indie publishing, the power of community, and what it takes to create stories that leave readers feeling lighter, comforted, and a little more enchanted by the world.
Let’s settle in and welcome P. L. Matthews to the armchair.
Website: https://plmatthews.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pl_matthews_author/
Paola writes the way she lives: with creativity spilling out in every direction. When she’s not working on her Green Witch Mysteries or drafting a brand-new series, she’s at the piano, painting with her community group, dancing around the house, or collaborating with translators across the world. And yes — chai tea is basically her bloodstream at this point.
What hooked me about her story is the honesty behind it. Writing full-time has been the hardest thing she’s ever done. Editing drives her mad. The messy middle of a manuscript slows her to a crawl. And yet she still shows up — every day — because storytelling is where she feels most like herself.
In this episode, we dive into the magic of beginnings, the realities of indie publishing, the power of community, and what it takes to create stories that leave readers feeling lighter, comforted, and a little more enchanted by the world.
Let’s settle in and welcome P. L. Matthews to the armchair.
Website: https://plmatthews.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pl_matthews_author/
Transcript of episode
Amra Pajalic (00:33)
welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. Today, I'm chatting with P.L. Matthews, Paola. She's an Australian indie author just like me, but she crafts urban fantasy mysteries that are set right here in Sydney. So I'm going to have to check these out. She's someone who grew up with a mother who allegedly
could see fairies in the garden. I've actually got a story about fairies and my grandmother that we're going to have to talk about. She's written award-winning stories in her 20s. She stepped away from writing for years but quietly returned to the page like someone slipping back into a secret world. Paola writes the way she lives with creativity spilling out in every directions. When she's not working on her Greenwich mysteries or drafting a brand new series, she's at the piano, painting with her community group, dancing around the
house or collaborating with translators across the world. How exciting you've got translations. ⁓
Paola (01:27)
I do, I do.
Amra Pajalic (01:30)
When
what hooked me is the honesty behind her story. She's writing full time and that's the hardest thing she's ever done. I can't wait to hear about that. Editing drives her mad. Yes can relate. The messy middle of a manuscript slows her to a crawl, but she doesn't give up. Every day storytelling is where she feels most by herself. So we're going to dive into the magic of beginnings, the realities of indie publishing, the power of community and what it takes to create stories that leave readers feeling lighter, comforted and a little more
enchanted by the world. So I just want to start basically with the Green Witch mysteries. I love paranormal and I'm loving this witches and mysteries so tell me more about that.
Paola (02:13)
Okay, so very naively I thought well I live in Sydney. I'm an Australian. That's where I'm setting my story.
Much later on, by the way, I learned that I should have possibly written in American English rather than Australian English, but too late. It is Australian English and I put a little explanation at the front and no one has complained yet. So there you go. But essentially, I love murder mysteries and I love urban fantasy. So I combined the two genres into one.
Amra Pajalic (02:35)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Paola (02:43)
really it's very much about the mystery but with all the fantasy elements in it you have witches you have gargoyles you have vampires all sorts of different things but the mystery itself is solved mostly with smarts not with magic so there you go
Amra Pajalic (02:59)
Oh, well see, I love this, this whole reimagining of like, and the fact that urban fantasy gives you the chance to sort of do so many things and bring in so many of those fantastical creatures. So that's, that's really fun. That's, sounds really intriguing. How many books have you got now?
Paola (03:16)
published 9, the 10th is coming up in another week so I'm very excited about that. Thank you.
Amra Pajalic (03:22)
Wow, that is amazing. Well,
I have a lot to learn from you because I've just launched my crime series and the first book is out and I'm actually writing the fifth, thank you, I'm writing the fifth book.
Paola (03:35)
Congratulations.
⁓
okay.
Amra Pajalic (03:39)
⁓
because I'm like stockpiling them and now I've got them on a schedule. And also because this is my first series, I was a bit nervous. I was like, I need to have them all sort of prepared because it's a big learning curve. Isn't it doing mysteries? Yeah. What are some of your tips?
Paola (03:52)
Huge, huge, it's huge. I
have to confess upfront that I made every mistake to begin with out of naivety but you know what?
That was actually an advantage because I kept going and I kept learning. And so I think if I had stopped and gone, I'm not ready. I wouldn't be here now. ⁓ But I think the essential thing as a writer is that you have to read your genre and you have to read extensively. You can't just say, ⁓ I'll figure it out. There are some amazing books out there.
Amra Pajalic (04:07)
Mmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Paola (04:27)
that give you all the basis to actually craft your own. I'm not talking about imitating but I'm talking about learning. Learning from others, learning from... because at the end of the day, know, the essential plot lines are all very similar. It's your take on things, it's your characters, it's your setting that makes it into the story at the end of the day. So...
That would be the first thing that I would suggest. I would say, of everything else, you have to read.
Amra Pajalic (04:54)
Yeah, I agree. And yeah, like it is just to love the written word, just to love, right? Like, you you love the reading, you love like you immerse yourself. Like I get so excited about new books and go around talking to people about them. And I'm like, you must check this one out. I just want to say we were touching on earlier in terms of both of us being from multicultural backgrounds. I'm from Bosnian background and you're from variety.
Paola (05:10)
You
⁓ French,
French on my dad's side and German and Spanish and Italian on my mum's side. So my daughter is done.
an amazing job of actually tracing back to the early 1800s for our family. So, yeah, I know. It is, she's amazing, she loves it. So research actually, whilst we're on the topic, it's so important. We're talking about the things for writing. It's so important for writing. ⁓
Amra Pajalic (05:32)
Wow. That's so cool!
Yeah.
Paola (05:48)
And it's fun. You're discovering new things, learning new things. I've learned more about poisons. I'm kind of waiting for the knock on the door from the federal police saying, why you...
Amra Pajalic (05:49)
Yes.
Based on your search engine?
Yes, I agree.
Paola (06:02)
But it's essential, right? I don't...
My husband, he's my editor, he pulls me into line often because he doesn't let me get away with just, it's magic. Which is sometimes when I get exasperated, I'll just go, it's magic. No, no, no. Even if it's magic, it has to have some element of truth, some element of logic in it. So I do that. I do extensive research. Google is my friend, but I also physically go and do that.
Amra Pajalic (06:14)
Yes, yes.
Paola (06:32)
and experience things sometimes myself. And I think it was one of the things we talked about before is me as a writer or you as a writer, at least for me, I can't divorce myself completely from the writing. The writing is who I am, what things I've experienced or seen or heard or read.
Sure, imagination comes into it, but it's all wrapped up in that. So some things are first-hand knowledge, others are research. But I've learned the hard way that even when you think you know something, you still should do some research because that's when you...
That's when you actually make mistakes. You think you know. And I've made mistakes thinking I know something only to be corrected. And my readers, some of them are very precise and they will point out things and they will say, well actually. But it's great because I'm learning and that's the thing I love the most about writing is you're learning all the time.
Amra Pajalic (07:32)
all the time.
all the time just new skills, new software packages, new ways of doing things. Even like with now with the books that I'm working on, I'm like, I thought I was a panzer, but now I'm becoming a plotter, where I like, I'm starting to have like the plot worked out and character sketches worked out and you know, all of this other stuff. And that has just sort of naturally happened from the first book in the series that was very much based on historical events.
And so I had to do a little, a lot of research. I want to ask how much does your, cause I'm writing Bosnian characters. I'm writing, you know, people that are not represented in fiction that I don't see represented in fiction. And my worlds are peppered with people from multicultural backgrounds like me. Do you, is that something that, you know, happens in your books also? I mean, it is urban fantasy. So, you know, you've got the magical elements too.
Paola (08:06)
Yeah.
It's an interesting question. I I Write what I know so instinctively I think I do put elements in that I might disguise them as magic or fantasy so for example the green witch in the green witch mysteries she's Unique in that her mom is a witch and her dad is an elf and So she's what I call a halfling
Amra Pajalic (08:48)
Mmm.
Paola (08:48)
⁓
And as such, she's different. She's different to everyone else. She has powers that she's not meant to have, that she's not confident in, that she tries to hide. And so I represent some of that that way. ⁓ Yes, and also the conflict between the races and I bring themes.
Amra Pajalic (09:01)
Yes, the themes we bring in.
Paola (09:08)
subtle but I'm reading themes of racism into it but I use it as a species you know supernaturals against humans or against different supernaturals as well like against each other so those themes are definitely in there yeah and I'm also like my second series Sky is the main character Sky is neurodivergent so I do explore
Amra Pajalic (09:23)
Yeah.
Paola (09:33)
She's a high functioning neurointegra, but she is. So I explore things like that. And as you know, I also chose for example to depict a character with dementia. And the reason I did that is because my dad went through dementia.
And having had that experience, it just came out and I wanted to reflect it and I wanted to in a way say the person is not the illness and there's still magic in there, there's still a soul in there. And hopefully I did.
Amra Pajalic (09:59)
Yes.
Yeah, and think that sort of stuff, that's what readers connect with, like no matter what the genre is, it's that heart that we put into it. And to go back to what you were saying earlier, like...
every story has been done in some way. know, there's that thing about there's the universal stories, the story arcs, the story, you know, the universal stories, etc. And so at the end of the day, it's just about how we what have we got in our brains? What have we got through our experiences that we are bringing that is different, that we're reflecting and that, readers are coming into? And obviously, you've got a passionate and committed readership. If they're contacted,
Paola (10:21)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (10:43)
you and telling you things about you know what you're doing wrong. I want to ask a practical question this is for myself. How are you tracking your series you know continuity and what happened before and who did what because that's where I'm up to now.
Paola (10:49)
Okay.
God, okay,
so you talked about you thought you'd be a panther and then you became a plotter. It's the opposite for me. So in my previous life as a corporate person,
I and I continue to be in my personal life as well. I mean our household works as a machine. We both, my husband and I are very organized, very organized, very much into efficiency, things in their place, in the way that they they're used. So I had the feeling or I thought actually that I would be like that with my writing.
and it's exactly the opposite. So when I start writing, and it's interesting for a murder mystery, people always ask me this question. So I have an ending in mind and I may have a scattering of scenes in my head, but I don't have a plot line. I have no idea what's gonna happen. In fact, short of the main characters, I really don't know.
who the other characters are going to be. They write themselves, they come off the page. And so the way it works for me is I just sit there and write whatever comes out. And at the end of it, once I know who the murderer is, which by the way, I think I may know, but it inevitably changes halfway through or towards the last third of the book. And so I go back.
⁓ In one of my edits and I make sure that all the clues are in the right Place and pointing in the right direction and a lot of people are horrified by this But about a mystery surely you need to work out each step. I mean actually not if you know
At the end of the day, you know how the person was murdered, which I do. So that's something that I do know on this stuff. Or at least part of it. Then planting the clues along the way, it's easy. You may have to tweak here and there in some scenes, but it's not a complete rewrite.
And so that works for me. And I cannot bring, there's been a couple of times, I think it happened with one book and maybe a little bit on this last one I wrote, which is I got to halfway and I was blocked. And so I went, okay, I'm going to write a plot line.
to end it, you know, because I know it. And I wrote this really, really high level plot line and never ever looked at it again. But that got me, that got me going and I went, okay, I'll keep going. So I'm not, I can't think like that with writing. It's a completely different part of my brain and it just doesn't work.
Amra Pajalic (13:19)
you
Yes.
Yeah.
Well, I'm going to be curious to see what happens with this latest book because sort of the previous ones I knew the mystery aspect. This one, I know the mystery, but I'm like, I might play with who I'm going to make the murderer. So yeah, we'll see where the world is kind of there.
So I wanted to talk about, you know, you're now a full-time author, which is absolutely amazing. And this is the thing I was traditionally published, you know, and had the agent and all of that stuff. And, you know, only like 1 % of traditionally published authors are managing to live, to, you know, write full-time and live off their writing. Whereas in the indie world, it is a lot more common.
And so this really is the viable way of moving forward. So can you take us, how did you get to be full-time? What did it take? What are the things that you do to, you know, for the income and yeah, and how has that changed your writing? Because that's the other thing, isn't it?
Paola (14:36)
Yeah it is. Look it's grown organically. When I first started writing again, second time around, I didn't tell anyone. I didn't know where this was going. I just knew I was, this is gonna sound so cliche, but I was unhappy at work. was, I wouldn't say I'm unhappy, not unhappy as in I hated my job or anything like that. I was bored.
I'd done it. Everything seemed to be the same. Yeah, sure. It might've been a different regulation, a different software. I was working with a different project team, but at the end of the day, it was deja vu every time I went into the office. And so I knew I needed a change. So the first thing I did, this is before I actually started writing, I talked to my husband and I started going part-time.
Amra Pajalic (14:59)
Yes.
Paola (15:23)
I needed a little bit of that space to allow the creative side to come out and I started experimenting with a couple of things. I'm also a painter, ⁓ so I've been doing painting for a few years and I love it and I thought I'd explore that a bit more, which actually came in handy later for the covers ⁓ and the ads, but that's another story. ⁓
Amra Pajalic (15:42)
⁓ we will come back to that.
Paola (15:48)
But in any case, when I started exploring, went, you know what? I still have this itch. I want to write, I want to write. Do I have it in me to write a full book? Because you hear the stories, right? You know what it's like. and I love this comment, yeah, yeah, I want to write a book. I'll do it one day.
Amra Pajalic (16:06)
Everybody, everybody!
And you just look at them and you go, really? You think it's so easy, you can just say it. Like saying is not doing people. Doing is doing.
Paola (16:17)
No, no.
Yes, and so I went, okay, I mean I wasn't unfamiliar with writing because I had done it earlier. And I thought if I can write a book, actually it wasn't even that. I've got these stories running in my head, let's put it.
not on paper, on computer. And I just sat down and started writing and writing. And I didn't tell anyone, not even my husband, who's my best friend. And then I got to a point and I went, my God, I've written 60,000 words. This is actually a book. And that's when I started telling people. And...
Amra Pajalic (16:49)
Yes.
Paola (16:54)
The reactions were interesting. It was like, okay, this is another experiment. A lot of people went, ⁓ this is another experiment. You're going through a phase. And a lot of my friends thought I'd go back full time to the corporate job. And I just went, well, you know, I'll keep going. I've got a book, I'll finish it. And I did, I did. And I went, okay, well, I finished it. What's next? So I published.
And then I went, my God! I didn't realize how little I knew about the whole thing. And that's when I started the process of getting myself into writing communities online. And I now have a small, relatively small group of criticus and we critique each other online, which is a fabulous group.
very loyal, very supportive and that transformed my writing. You know, the most important lesson apart from read a lot is you cannot write without others. You just can't. You need someone else's eyes. You know what you're trying to say, not what you wrote.
Amra Pajalic (17:54)
Yeah,
yeah, it's very hard to see that external, have that external vision of your book. Yeah.
Paola (17:57)
It is very, very hard. It's very hard.
Then I armed myself with all sorts of, I'm technically minded and my husband is even more so. So I created a website, started getting my newsletter out. I started building and then I got into Facebook ads. So I did some courses, learned about it and I went.
And I think half a dozen people have read my book. And I had three books out by then. And I think most of them were friends and family, by the way. So I went, okay, I think I'm at a stage now where I think I'm ready to advertise and see if anyone else thinks my books are any good. Because, you know, when you write, or for me anyway,
I want people to read them and get something nice out of it. Take them somewhere. Show them certain things. Leave them with hope.
Amra Pajalic (18:47)
ideas.
Paola (18:48)
And so I want my books to be read. I'm not writing just for me. I am writing for me, but not just for me. So I thought, I'll start advertising. So I learned how to create ads. I started testing it and much to my surprise, I was selling. And I kind of panicked and I stopped. What am I doing?
But then little by little I gave myself confidence and I've been running ads on different platforms now for what are we 25 so for a year and a half. So I do my own marketing. mean, Tik Tok, mean, Bookbub, I mean, Facebook ads.
and I've sold thousands of books and then the other thing that did help and actually the funny thing is I didn't do it for this reason but the other thing I did was translate the books so I did it because of my background because I was raised in different cultures and I do speak three languages and I and I can order a cup of coffee in a few others and I
Amra Pajalic (19:27)
Amazing.
Thanks.
Paola (19:50)
wanted to share it with those different cultures. Like I had no clue whether it would actually, they would like it. It's set in Sydney. It's a little bit weird. You know, it's our culture. And I went with French first. So I thought, well, know, ties, you know, knowledge and stuff. And I put out the book.
And I started getting some French readers sending me comments saying, I love it. by the way, here's a little mistake you made. And here's another little mistake you made. it's just, but they were, you know, I had expected them that if I made mistakes, they would be really angry, right? That's your expectation. Like I'm mad when I find a typo that somehow, despite all the process, gets through.
Amra Pajalic (20:17)
Wonderful.
always slip through.
Paola (20:33)
And I'm thinking, my god, my god, I was devastated. And I did go through one bad experience where I hired someone for German. And German was a hard language for me because I don't speak it. I've started learning it, by the way, because, you know, I'm sort of, I need to know a little bit more about it. And they actually didn't do a good job at all. So I'm now having those redone. I've discovered a new translator and she's wonderful.
Amra Pajalic (20:48)
amazing.
Paola (20:59)
adorable and we talk on video and it's fantastic how you develop relationships with these people and then I said to my husband in fact he said it to me I think I am a small business I employ people and so Germany became slowly is now on par no in fact I think it's more than the US in terms of my profitability
Amra Pajalic (21:09)
You are. You are. Absolutely.
Paola (21:22)
I've got super fans in Germany or what you would call super fans who write to me and you know it's just been the most amazing amazing experience. ⁓
Amra Pajalic (21:34)
So you haven't
been, because like I'm seeing in the indie world, there's Scribe Shadow, which is a AI company.
Paola (21:39)
Yes, yes, so I do use
Scrap Shadow but I have human translators on top of that. ⁓
Amra Pajalic (21:48)
And you
source your own translators to go through the scribe shadow version. And how have you been finding your translators?
Paola (21:50)
Yes, yes, yes. I'll do it.
⁓ So it's all been through online platforms. So I'll tell you the story of the German one because that's... It's kind of funny. Jana says he was meant to be. I don't know. Anyway, so I put the ad up.
And for me, you know, I don't want, I want the best possible quality to go out there. So I was not prepared to just do the translation and let it go like that. Cause I know that I makes mistakes. You know, when you do translations, you know, because I speak the languages and it's easier for me to pick it up. But German, of course I was going blind. So I...
Amra Pajalic (22:19)
Yeah.
Paola (22:29)
put the ad up and she answered it and she wasn't the cheapest, she wasn't the most expensive, it was just sort of in the middle and there was something about her bio that sort of appealed to me and so we started chatting, she agreed to take on the job and then she had done, I don't know if it was one book or two and she sent me a message and she said, would you like to meet ⁓ in Australia, backpacking.
⁓ So she was in Australia when she took on the job. I didn't know this. I went, of course. And so we met up and we chatted for like two hours. It was fantastic. She's back in Germany now, but we do talk on video from time to time. So that's how I found my translators and I've developed a relationship. No, no, no. So freelancer and network. I'm a major two source.
Amra Pajalic (23:07)
So where did you advertise? Facebook or Facebook Groups or our freelancer network?
Paola (23:15)
⁓ Upwork. It's called Upwork.
Amra Pajalic (23:15)
great. Upwork, Upwork.
Okay,
yeah, it's fabulous how you do those connections because I did my books as audio books and developed a friendship with my narrator. And I interviewed her for my podcast and we check in with each other. And so that's the thing, like we're in this world where we're dealing with, you know, creativity, creative people. We want to connect. And I'm actually wanting to, that's going to be my goal next year to translate this series. But because I'm Bosnian,
I'm like I am embarrassed to translate into other languages until I translate in Bosnian and so I have gone through and used Google Translate because scribe shadow doesn't do Bosnian and Translated the whole book and my husband who's Bosnian born is going through and Editing and correcting and then I'm gonna get someone else. ⁓ I know in the community to proofread it ⁓ And then I'm publish it in Bosnia
Paola (23:51)
Okay.
Okay, I'm fixing it.
Yes.
Mm.
Amra Pajalic (24:14)
because I just know if I try to do another language I'll have angry people going really really you're doing this other language but not Bosnian
Paola (24:18)
Mm.
Most of them, yeah, you know it's interesting because I started with French but I didn't tell the Spanish side of the family because I knew they would react as well and they would go, why aren't you doing this? Yeah. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (24:35)
Yes, yeah.
No, it's
it's but yeah, okay. Yeah, so I'm also asking for myself. But also, that's the wonderful thing about being a small business the way that we are being indie authors. The all of the opportunities we have to, you know, basically, you know, exploit our intellectual property, you know, so one book becomes numerous books. ⁓ Have you done any audio books?
Paola (24:55)
Yes. Yes.
Yes.
Yes, so one of my closest friends, she's got an amazing, beautiful voice. So she is narrating my books and she has done four in The Greenwich and she's working on finishing number five, which is the final book in the series. So I've got people writing to me and saying, where's the final book? But it takes an awful long time to do it and to do it properly.
So I'm not an audiobook person myself. So I actually wasn't thinking of doing it, but she offered. And so I went and he was our third friend. sort of have a trio of friends. We normally do things together. And he said, no, no, no, do it, do it. Give it a, give these a go. So we did. And it's out there. Just.
As you say, it gives us the freedom to explore all of these different opportunities that traditionally published doesn't necessarily give you.
Amra Pajalic (25:54)
No,
because if they don't earn a profit, they're not going to move forward with any of these things. And once they have your rights, you're stuck. You can't do anything unless and until...
Paola (25:57)
No.
Yes, no.
Amra Pajalic (26:06)
they you know feel like it or you try and get those some of those rights back but they do get a little they get touchy they get touchy because my my memoir was traditionally published and shortlisted for a prize and I wanted to do the audiobook and narrate it myself and he gave me those rights back and so was able to do that as an audiobook
Paola (26:12)
Which is a nightmare.
Amra Pajalic (26:30)
But he was like, only the audio. And I went, okay. And so I'm actually just counting down until the 10 year mark when I get the rights back to that book. And then I can, you know, do the different, different things. Because it's only Australian. That's the other thing. Like the audio book gives me the international market, but the paperback is Australian only.
Paola (26:49)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (26:52)
Yeah, yeah, like I've slowly gotten back the rights to my traditionally published. And now I just, I'm too wary. I would only do traditional, like where some of those successful authors are licensing certain rights where, you know, they can do the paperbacks only in Australia, because I've got the bookstores and stuff like that. So being careful about what you give them.
Paola (27:14)
Yeah, I've
heard some... You know, the interesting thing is in the press you get almost the opposite story. So every time I see an article like the Sidhman and Harold and he says, ⁓ wonderful in the author and you're halfway through and they said, and I've sold my rights to traditional publisher. It seems to be like the pinnacle, the aim. And I still have people coming to me and say, so you're waiting until a traditional publisher comes to you.
My answer is no. Not only am I not waiting, if they do come in, like you say, I'm not going to sell the whole set of rights. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (27:49)
No, like you would really be looking at that contract with a fine-toothed
comb. When I started indie publishing, I actually created myself as a small press. So I registered my business name and created a website, which is now my shop. And I published my husband, who's also an award-winning short story writer. So I'm like, I am a small press. And so that's how I'm positioning myself, even though I don't
have the capacity to publish anyone else because until and unless I am able to do what you're doing which is the the full-time writing and the income being generated from that and then being able to take on other things ⁓ I am at capacity trying to do everything for myself yeah
Paola (28:17)
No.
Yeah. ⁓
Yes.
Yeah, and it is it is very much a full time job. It's more than that. I had I went through a period when I first started doing translations where I was working 16 hour days, seven days a week. My daughter still says, mom, you're working harder than you did before. And it's like, yes, we had. But I love it. But I have pulled back because.
you do have limits, you do have...
you need to be rested, you need to be in a good position and in good health and you can't just work stupid hours all the time. It's just so I've learned to manage my time better.
Amra Pajalic (29:12)
But also now you've got that, where you've diversified your income, you diversified your income streams and you know the fact that you've learnt Facebook ads, your
presumably doing Facebook ads in all the different countries that you've got the books in. So, you know, it's that wonderful thing of being able to have that set up now, that ecosystem where it's, I don't know, you sort of figure out flows and that's what I'm figuring out now. Like at first, every new thing that you do is just terrifying and exhausting. Even this podcast, I only started enjoying it like, I don't know, five episodes.
Paola (29:23)
Yes, yes I am.
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Amra Pajalic (29:48)
to go because it was just so nerve-racking and so like my god whereas now I'm like I know how to do it and now I can just enjoy the conversation and just enjoy the moment and it's the same with the publishing world.
Paola (30:04)
Yes, yes it is. You get into a routine which sounds boring but it's not. It's more like a process. I write and I only exclusively write and critique as well as managing the rest of it. And then I get to a point where I start editing. I'm not writing whilst I'm editing. There might be a small overlap, a couple of weeks, because...
your brain then becomes this second part and you can dedicate yourself to that. You can't constantly be moving from one thing to the other. It's just it's too much. ⁓
Amra Pajalic (30:34)
That's right. Yeah.
Yeah, it's that juggling. It's that keeping up. I just wanted to pick up the thread where you were talking about how being a painter helped you with covers.
Paola (30:44)
I guess because you understand paintings, understand the basics, you understand what is pleasing to the eye but you also understand elements so when you look at covers people go it just has to be pretty which was my first thought by the way I'll admit it's pretty little work
Amra Pajalic (31:01)
We, that's right. It's a whole
different thing thinking about covers. It's a whole brain thing.
Paola (31:07)
Yes
it is.
So it's easier for me to then look at all, which is what I do, it's I look at all the similar genres to mine, remembering that I do cross genre, but I actually advertise myself as urban fantasy. I do put cozy in front of it, where I can, so people don't expect, you know, gore and violence and all the rest of it, because you get a little bit of that, but not, I'm not into gore or violence. So, um...
So I advertise like that. So I actually compare the top 100 covers that writers are like, and I look at their covers and I analyze their covers. And so you have to be able to dissect the elements on the cover. Probably my weakest point is the actual fonts. So my daughter who did marketing,
Amra Pajalic (31:49)
You do.
Yes.
Paola (31:59)
not as a career but as a you know when you know the clubs at university and stuff she did a lot of that she helped me with that you know i'm hopeless with fans it's just like that will do no mum no
Amra Pajalic (32:13)
Yeah.
No, because I'm doing my own covers for Crime. It's a landscape now and the colourful font. I did a lot of research and I have stock photo websites and stuff. And so she really helps me with placement and figuring out and I put it together and I start sort of, have concepts and I'm like, which one? And then she's like, no, do this and do that. And so my first
Paola (32:19)
Okay. Yeah.
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (32:42)
three covers, I'm so happy with them. And now then I had to do the next three because the first three books are scheduled for publication and I'm writing book five. So I'm like, need the next three and I need them to be consistent. And so I just spent, you know, a week playing around, finding different photos, you know, doing ⁓ things. And I finally just got them figured out. And I just felt this great relief where I'm like,
Paola (32:52)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (33:08)
But I am looking forward to ⁓ generating enough income to be able to outsource that at some point. Thankfully for this genre, it's easy because it is that just the landscape, whereas for urban fantasy.
Paola (33:19)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah,
no, no, you can't. And to be honest, that would be one of the things I would not want to give up. I really enjoy doing the covers myself. just, I spend hours, hours and hours in a cover. I take my hat off to any cover creator. They do a fantastic job ⁓ and it is hard work.
Amra Pajalic (33:42)
Yeah.
Paola (33:44)
But I love it. I guess that's the artist in me, you know, and I've got this image in my head and that's what I want to go for. So, yeah, that's one thing I would not give up. There are other things that I would love to. Editing is one of But you know, even with editing, you can't as a writer completely outsource it.
It needs to keep your style, your voice, your sense in it. So you can't just say, okay, you fix it. It just doesn't work like that. I mean, my husband and I have spent, because he does the final pass for me. So he's done writing studies. And so he does the final editing, aside from me. And we'll spend 20 minutes arguing over a sentence.
Amra Pajalic (34:26)
Yeah.
There's nothing like ⁓
doing those sort of collaborative things like my husband and I had when I was publishing his short story collection. Yes, yes. Entertaining moments. And then also when he, cause I was a writer my whole life and he sort of came to writing late to deal with some, some mental health issues and stuff. And so I was like his, ⁓ critiquer at first. Ooh, that was fun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Paola (34:30)
you
⁓ tough tough tough tough
Amra Pajalic (34:53)
and then it went on the other foot where he was my critique.
Paola (34:53)
my god
Amra Pajalic (34:56)
I think I took it better, okay? I would just like to say I took it better. Yeah, well, you might have a different version of events, but I stand by it. But yeah, it's really good when you've got that support system where, you know.
Paola (35:02)
Should I ask him?
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (35:14)
And also you do create that ecosystem where, know, I have a proofreader, ⁓ you know, who does that, you know, I have a narrator when I'm ready to narrate this series, hopefully. So like you do create and then now I'm going to be doing what you're doing. I'm going to be doing translating and I know to go to Upwork, was it?
Paola (35:17)
Yes. Yes.
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (35:35)
Yeah, I work to find ⁓ people to help me because it really makes a difference because I know that scribe shadow is supposed to be really good, but it does. It does so many, you know, like even my husband's going through the the Bosnian version and it's like, you know, in our culture, there's the name for the paternal uncle, for the maternal uncle, for the paternal aunt, the maternal aunt. AI doesn't differentiate. And then there's the different ways of saying grandparents depending on your region, you know, it might be
Paola (35:39)
Yes.
No. No. No, no, no, no.
Amra Pajalic (36:05)
Dido, might be dedo, it might be, you know, so it's like all these different things. So it just kind of randomly assigns things. So yeah, you really do need that human touch.
Paola (36:15)
no, no,
you do. some of the fundamentals with European languages, and this is where I'm lucky that I actually understand it because I do speak others. they have the formal and informal. So you have the vus and the tu in French, you have the du and the si in German.
the same with Italian and Spanish. They have the vosotros, if it's Spain or the ustedes, if it's Latin America. it's again, that's regional, right? And even in Spain itself, the way they say one thing versus another. I mean, I actually had a funny thing where my translator in Germany, she did something and then I give it to my one of my super fans first before I publish it. So he goes through it one more time and he corrected
something and I sent it back to to Yana and I said oh do you agree and she looked at it and she investigated she said oh is how we say it in this part of Germany it's like this just this region in Germany they say it like that but the rest of Germany or standard German they use what my
reader said so you know even stuff like that it's just it's just impossible but that first translation in German was devastating for me because it made you know apart from mixing the formal and informal within the chapter which is you know particularly for the French is you you know they they have this and German as well for that matter you know you have ways of talking to people you haven't met someone before unless you're young and casual you would use the formal but it's just
Amra Pajalic (37:22)
Yeah.
Mm.
Yeah, like
in Bosnian, if you're speaking to someone and you want him to show respect, you speak to them in third person.
⁓ do you want this? like not them but like you know and so you speak to them in a a formal way and then there's a female and the male so we change the the way that we say the name depending on the object and then the way that you know verbs feminine and male yeah like it just and if it doesn't recognize it doesn't know that the name is male or female it just
Paola (37:53)
Okay.
Yes.
No. And there are some
not so funny things, you know, for example in English. English is a funny language, right? ⁓
Amra Pajalic (38:24)
my gosh, isn't it? When you've got another
language and then you go to English and I teach EAL, so I teach students in high school who have been in Australia for less than seven years and I actually show them YouTube clips of how English does not make sense, of the fact that it's an amalgamation of all these different languages and when you look at some verbs, you know, the regular and irregular verbs and all this, it doesn't make sense. It does not make sense.
Paola (38:28)
Yeah. ⁓ okay.
No.
Yes.
No. No.
So for example take the word, some of my Greenwich mysteries, right? So she owns a landscape nursery business. So in my books I had nursery. Guess what? In German he translated that as children's nursery. Right? Yeah. And he translated bike, which was a motorbike, as bicycle.
Amra Pajalic (39:04)
Yes, yes, completely wrong, completely wrong, yeah.
Yes, yes. Yeah, there's so many things like you really, mean, it's wonderful that there's this technology now, because it is much easier, my husband going through and editing the where it's already there. I mean, he's working on it every day, like five pages. So it is still exhausting, but trying to do the whole thing. Yeah.
Paola (39:17)
Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. yeah, takes ages. No, you can't.
No.
Amra Pajalic (39:33)
No, it's
still a lot more. So it is wonderful that we've got this opportunity and these tools now, but you can't replace that human touch and you can't sort of, yeah, no.
Paola (39:38)
Yeah.
No,
not if some people do, but I think it's disrespectful, you know, for my craft, for me, for me. I could not bring myself to put a book that wasn't to the best of my ability in whatever language it is.
Amra Pajalic (40:02)
I think I'm going to be a bit mean and I'm going to say people who do are the people who don't have another language.
and don't really understand what it means and the nuances of what it means. Because I lived in Bosnia, I was born in Australia, but I lived in Bosnia, I went through the education system. So even though my language skills now are still kind of primary school level, and I can speak, read and write, but not fabulous, I am able to see the grammatical mistakes that it makes even at my basic understanding.
Paola (40:11)
the subtlety.
Yeah. Yes.
Amra Pajalic (40:36)
And so yeah, it just, and then there's just something within you where you're like, ⁓ I know it's not gonna be good. I just know, and you just want readers to have that experience. Yeah, you don't want them to be taken out of the story. And also what we're doing now with series, it's so important about read through where people keep going.
Paola (40:47)
experience yes yes
Yeah, I had
actually a German reader who wrote to me. This is how I found out that their first translation wasn't done properly. So the first proofreading that I did for German wasn't done. He wrote to me a fairly long email, very German. It was in English, he wrote it in English, but it was very German. The Germans are very direct, which is wonderful, right?
Amra Pajalic (41:16)
Yes.
Paola (41:18)
you see what you get. So he said to me that he read my books and he loved them but he got frustrated with some of the translation and he had to get the English book to be able to figure out what I was saying.
and could I please, you know, fix it? And so I wrote back to him and I said, I'm really, really sorry. This is what happened. I am fixing it, but it's taking time. You know, it's not a five minute job to fix it. And he wrote back to me and he said, thank you. I'm really happy that I wrote to you. I've never done it before.
Thank you for the gift, your book, your imagination, your will. For someone like me who's a retired engineer, being able to access these books means a lot. I was like,
Amra Pajalic (41:57)
amazing.
You can't like that's the thing when you get people that's why now at the moment it's so frustrating all those emails from AI generated things where they're trying to get our business and we get excited when they're like, you know, got the title of our book and we're like, it's a reader. And then they're like, it was so like all these generic stuff, your book about justice and all they're doing is taking picking up words from the blurb. And you're like, really, you know, but when you get that genuine reader who has actually
Paola (42:28)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (42:28)
connected.
it's everything, it's just everything.
Paola (42:32)
It is. had the most moving one was a French reader. He said it was a long, we exchanged a few emails, but it was a long one. And she said, your books helped me get through my morphine patches. She was recovering, not only recovering, but she was going through cancer treatment.
Amra Pajalic (42:48)
Yeah, and that's the thing, that's what books are for us. I, my memoir is about growing up with my mum who had bipolar and about what that meant because you know, mental illness is really terrible, but within an in a non-English speaking background context, there's a whole other layer of what goes on with it. And so, you know, writing that memoir was me figuring things out, but I had so many women
to me who had mothers who suffered from bipolar and then also men writing to me who connected with the male with my father and my stepfather story and that stuff that's just you don't know like that's the joy of putting things out there we don't know we don't know what will connect with people what they will read I even I wrote an article for the age about menopause and being repulsed by babies and I had two women writing to me thank you thank you
Thank you!
deliberately wrote it because I'm like, need to have menopause on the conversation, you know, on the table. And I was like, I know that there will be people who will be judging me and going, you're horrible. And it's like, no, I'm maternal. Thank you. I have a child. have a beautiful relationship with her, but I cannot look at babies anymore. was never fond of them. But now there's this whole physical response that occurs. And you know, you put these
things out there because that's what's going on in your head. That's that unique thing that you have that no one else has. Yeah, so I love that. Now just wanted to talk a little bit more about lessons learned because so you've you've kind of talked about
Paola (44:19)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (44:28)
you know, things. I sort of did want to talk about your typical day. I really think that anyone who does not understand the indie world, you know, I get strange questions sometimes we can't help get offended. They're like, do you edit your books? Like, of course I do.
You know, like it's I am treating this as a small business and with professionalism and that is what requires you've gone through in terms of like the translating like even with the audiobooks, we have to proofread, proof listen to everything and yeah, it is. I love it. I actually am starting to appreciate and love love audiobooks. I go between both.
Paola (44:58)
Yes, proof listen. ⁓ and that's so painful because I'm not an audio person. I'm not an audio person. Do you? ⁓ no.
find it so difficult, so much so that I've actually asked my husband. Yeah. Well, he's read every single one of my books because he's edited them. And he's an audio person and he picks up more things than I do because I just, I find it really, really difficult to concentrate on audio. Yeah. So that's just me. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (45:13)
Yeah, yeah, no, you can outsource that because at the end of the day, as long as they follow on with the book.
Yeah.
It is a different way. Like I remember the first time I
listened to an audiobook, the first 20 minutes I was just like, like really struggling. And then something where I did this switch and now it doesn't matter to me whether I read a physical book or I listen to an audiobook, the images are there. I still have pictures in my head. And the reason I like audiobooks is when
I'm doing boring things, like really boring things and it's like I just want to get out of this reality but I can't read because I'm doing things that's when so take me through your typical day or your typical week maybe like
Paola (45:59)
Okay.
Yeah, yeah.
okay so a typical day would be and I don't distinguish with weekends so I usually get up at around 5 530 maybe and I'll do writing things until about 7 730 so I'll my critique I'll
myself at speed with different writers forums because it's important in this business to keep up to date with changes with all sorts of things that are happening out there and the forums are fundamental for that and all the forums that I attend except for one in the royalty they're international writers forums so ⁓ and we all support and you know answer questions when people have questions
So my first bit of the morning is more about that than actual writing. Then I'll go for a walk and a swim. So we go for an hour, we're going to the national park, swim along the way. And that's when I do all my plotting. And my husband will talk to me and I'll go, what? And he'll go, there you go, you're plotting again. Yeah, I am, I am.
and then I'll come back and then I'll start. If it's a writing period, so I'll go to the writing again. So if it's a writing period, I'll sit there and write until about 12 31.
I'll then relax and do something else and then I'll come back and I'll do critiquing. I'll do marketing Depending on what's going on at the time Because I've got to maintain those relationships with my critiquers So it's not like I can choose to critique or not critiquing at a given point, right? So they have their their books manuscripts ready for editing at different points in time So it's not like I can't say you know
weeks time I'll go and critique you it just doesn't quite work like that so I'll make time for that in the afternoon and translations is an it's another
So for example right now I've just finished editing the final manuscript so that means I'm into translations now. So when you do translations people have got this image with crowd shadow for example that you just press a button ⁓
Amra Pajalic (48:15)
did, I did, that's why I'm so glad I talked
to you.
Paola (48:18)
No, no, no.
So we've got a system now and I actually use my husband for this as well. So we have to introduce things like, and this is where Scrap Shadow is better than say Google Translate. So what you can do is you create some things like never translate or always translate this way. So if I want, and this is critical for...
urban fantasy where you've got magical names for things or titles or whatever and so you want to translate it in a specific way so you put it you put a list of these things in there with French is is tricky because the French separate the dialogue so you know how we say in English we will say come on she said and then put her hat on well that she put her hat on
will have to go on another line even if she says something else after that and then that something else needs to go unless it has the she said or she asked that goes into another line so all of that has to be done pre-translation because doing it I've done it in French and it drives me crazy so it's easier to do in English so all of that work goes and happens before you actually put the manuscript in so you need to really know your stuff and it's also experience you
You learn what it translates well and what it doesn't translate well. For example, now I write motorbike. I no longer do moto, or bike, sorry, bike because then it can confuse it. So you do things like that to try and make sure that it does the right thing. There'll still be errors, but you're reducing them, right? And then you do a check because it doesn't always get it right. So you go, okay, I have...
Amra Pajalic (49:43)
Yes, you did, yeah.
Paola (49:56)
you know, say 40 take majors here, how many technique major do I have in here? Do I have 40 or do I have 39? Okay, what happened to the 40? So, you know, it's, there's a little bit of extra work in there before you can give it to a proofreader.
So yes, once you put it in the scribe shadow, it's five, 10 minutes, but the pre-work and the post-work, it's quite significant. Anyway, so I got subtract. So that's my typical day. That's multiplied by seven days a week. And then there's a period where I just write. So for two months, that's what I do, I just write. And then the next.
two months I'm editing and so that's sort of it and there's a little bit of what they like that's a cycle that's a cycle
Amra Pajalic (50:37)
That cycle. Yeah. Yeah. And I
think that's the other thing. Like there is that view that as indie authors, because, know, in the traditional publishing world, it's like, you know, you work on one book for 10 years and we've all done it. You know, like my first book of my series is my PhD book. And so that was seven years, but I wrote three books.
in those seven years, but supervisors were like, we're not reading the three, we're only reading the one that you're submitting. But you know, like there's that thing of you just keep.
Paola (50:58)
Yeah, okay.
Amra Pajalic (51:07)
writing on the working on the same thing over and over again but when you are an indie author it really is about releasing it really is about and if you need to you go back you know if you need to you go back you do editing work you change the cover you change the title you rebrand the series like you know if you've learned something new you apply it but you don't learn if you don't move forward
Paola (51:16)
Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes.
Yes, that's exactly right. And that's how it's been for me. That experience, for example, that first book that I put out, I went back and with everything I'd learned, I rewrote a lot of it over time. it's you learn and you keep, you keep, sometimes you go back, you know, I changed when I first did the first cover, it wasn't the right cover.
So I changed that and now I'm consistent and I've got a system but the first cover was wrong and I had to change it.
Amra Pajalic (51:58)
Yeah, and that usually does happen for us because
we are sort of learning, like it took me a while with the covers. And even my daughters now, like the first series I did, the Young Adult series where I got the rights back. She's like, mum, they're good covers. You you really did do a good job, but you're eating so much with these next covers for this series. And that's the thing, like you don't grow by staying still.
you only grow by learning. Well, I think that's a great place for us to end. I am so thankful that you put yourself forward as my guinea pig to try this new software that I'm trying for my podcast so that I can interview more people and just really open it up. But
Thank you so much. was just such a great, so generous thought. It's really helped me with my next steps and my professional learning. So I thank you so much for that.
Paola (52:46)
No.
It's been a pleasure talking to you. It felt like we were just chatting. So thank you. You made me very comfortable.
Amra Pajalic (52:55)
It,
thank you very much.
welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. Today, I'm chatting with P.L. Matthews, Paola. She's an Australian indie author just like me, but she crafts urban fantasy mysteries that are set right here in Sydney. So I'm going to have to check these out. She's someone who grew up with a mother who allegedly
could see fairies in the garden. I've actually got a story about fairies and my grandmother that we're going to have to talk about. She's written award-winning stories in her 20s. She stepped away from writing for years but quietly returned to the page like someone slipping back into a secret world. Paola writes the way she lives with creativity spilling out in every directions. When she's not working on her Greenwich mysteries or drafting a brand new series, she's at the piano, painting with her community group, dancing around the
house or collaborating with translators across the world. How exciting you've got translations. ⁓
Paola (01:27)
I do, I do.
Amra Pajalic (01:30)
When
what hooked me is the honesty behind her story. She's writing full time and that's the hardest thing she's ever done. I can't wait to hear about that. Editing drives her mad. Yes can relate. The messy middle of a manuscript slows her to a crawl, but she doesn't give up. Every day storytelling is where she feels most by herself. So we're going to dive into the magic of beginnings, the realities of indie publishing, the power of community and what it takes to create stories that leave readers feeling lighter, comforted and a little more
enchanted by the world. So I just want to start basically with the Green Witch mysteries. I love paranormal and I'm loving this witches and mysteries so tell me more about that.
Paola (02:13)
Okay, so very naively I thought well I live in Sydney. I'm an Australian. That's where I'm setting my story.
Much later on, by the way, I learned that I should have possibly written in American English rather than Australian English, but too late. It is Australian English and I put a little explanation at the front and no one has complained yet. So there you go. But essentially, I love murder mysteries and I love urban fantasy. So I combined the two genres into one.
Amra Pajalic (02:35)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Paola (02:43)
really it's very much about the mystery but with all the fantasy elements in it you have witches you have gargoyles you have vampires all sorts of different things but the mystery itself is solved mostly with smarts not with magic so there you go
Amra Pajalic (02:59)
Oh, well see, I love this, this whole reimagining of like, and the fact that urban fantasy gives you the chance to sort of do so many things and bring in so many of those fantastical creatures. So that's, that's really fun. That's, sounds really intriguing. How many books have you got now?
Paola (03:16)
published 9, the 10th is coming up in another week so I'm very excited about that. Thank you.
Amra Pajalic (03:22)
Wow, that is amazing. Well,
I have a lot to learn from you because I've just launched my crime series and the first book is out and I'm actually writing the fifth, thank you, I'm writing the fifth book.
Paola (03:35)
Congratulations.
⁓
okay.
Amra Pajalic (03:39)
⁓
because I'm like stockpiling them and now I've got them on a schedule. And also because this is my first series, I was a bit nervous. I was like, I need to have them all sort of prepared because it's a big learning curve. Isn't it doing mysteries? Yeah. What are some of your tips?
Paola (03:52)
Huge, huge, it's huge. I
have to confess upfront that I made every mistake to begin with out of naivety but you know what?
That was actually an advantage because I kept going and I kept learning. And so I think if I had stopped and gone, I'm not ready. I wouldn't be here now. ⁓ But I think the essential thing as a writer is that you have to read your genre and you have to read extensively. You can't just say, ⁓ I'll figure it out. There are some amazing books out there.
Amra Pajalic (04:07)
Mmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Paola (04:27)
that give you all the basis to actually craft your own. I'm not talking about imitating but I'm talking about learning. Learning from others, learning from... because at the end of the day, know, the essential plot lines are all very similar. It's your take on things, it's your characters, it's your setting that makes it into the story at the end of the day. So...
That would be the first thing that I would suggest. I would say, of everything else, you have to read.
Amra Pajalic (04:54)
Yeah, I agree. And yeah, like it is just to love the written word, just to love, right? Like, you you love the reading, you love like you immerse yourself. Like I get so excited about new books and go around talking to people about them. And I'm like, you must check this one out. I just want to say we were touching on earlier in terms of both of us being from multicultural backgrounds. I'm from Bosnian background and you're from variety.
Paola (05:10)
You
⁓ French,
French on my dad's side and German and Spanish and Italian on my mum's side. So my daughter is done.
an amazing job of actually tracing back to the early 1800s for our family. So, yeah, I know. It is, she's amazing, she loves it. So research actually, whilst we're on the topic, it's so important. We're talking about the things for writing. It's so important for writing. ⁓
Amra Pajalic (05:32)
Wow. That's so cool!
Yeah.
Paola (05:48)
And it's fun. You're discovering new things, learning new things. I've learned more about poisons. I'm kind of waiting for the knock on the door from the federal police saying, why you...
Amra Pajalic (05:49)
Yes.
Based on your search engine?
Yes, I agree.
Paola (06:02)
But it's essential, right? I don't...
My husband, he's my editor, he pulls me into line often because he doesn't let me get away with just, it's magic. Which is sometimes when I get exasperated, I'll just go, it's magic. No, no, no. Even if it's magic, it has to have some element of truth, some element of logic in it. So I do that. I do extensive research. Google is my friend, but I also physically go and do that.
Amra Pajalic (06:14)
Yes, yes.
Paola (06:32)
and experience things sometimes myself. And I think it was one of the things we talked about before is me as a writer or you as a writer, at least for me, I can't divorce myself completely from the writing. The writing is who I am, what things I've experienced or seen or heard or read.
Sure, imagination comes into it, but it's all wrapped up in that. So some things are first-hand knowledge, others are research. But I've learned the hard way that even when you think you know something, you still should do some research because that's when you...
That's when you actually make mistakes. You think you know. And I've made mistakes thinking I know something only to be corrected. And my readers, some of them are very precise and they will point out things and they will say, well actually. But it's great because I'm learning and that's the thing I love the most about writing is you're learning all the time.
Amra Pajalic (07:32)
all the time.
all the time just new skills, new software packages, new ways of doing things. Even like with now with the books that I'm working on, I'm like, I thought I was a panzer, but now I'm becoming a plotter, where I like, I'm starting to have like the plot worked out and character sketches worked out and you know, all of this other stuff. And that has just sort of naturally happened from the first book in the series that was very much based on historical events.
And so I had to do a little, a lot of research. I want to ask how much does your, cause I'm writing Bosnian characters. I'm writing, you know, people that are not represented in fiction that I don't see represented in fiction. And my worlds are peppered with people from multicultural backgrounds like me. Do you, is that something that, you know, happens in your books also? I mean, it is urban fantasy. So, you know, you've got the magical elements too.
Paola (08:06)
Yeah.
It's an interesting question. I I Write what I know so instinctively I think I do put elements in that I might disguise them as magic or fantasy so for example the green witch in the green witch mysteries she's Unique in that her mom is a witch and her dad is an elf and So she's what I call a halfling
Amra Pajalic (08:48)
Mmm.
Paola (08:48)
⁓
And as such, she's different. She's different to everyone else. She has powers that she's not meant to have, that she's not confident in, that she tries to hide. And so I represent some of that that way. ⁓ Yes, and also the conflict between the races and I bring themes.
Amra Pajalic (09:01)
Yes, the themes we bring in.
Paola (09:08)
subtle but I'm reading themes of racism into it but I use it as a species you know supernaturals against humans or against different supernaturals as well like against each other so those themes are definitely in there yeah and I'm also like my second series Sky is the main character Sky is neurodivergent so I do explore
Amra Pajalic (09:23)
Yeah.
Paola (09:33)
She's a high functioning neurointegra, but she is. So I explore things like that. And as you know, I also chose for example to depict a character with dementia. And the reason I did that is because my dad went through dementia.
And having had that experience, it just came out and I wanted to reflect it and I wanted to in a way say the person is not the illness and there's still magic in there, there's still a soul in there. And hopefully I did.
Amra Pajalic (09:59)
Yes.
Yeah, and think that sort of stuff, that's what readers connect with, like no matter what the genre is, it's that heart that we put into it. And to go back to what you were saying earlier, like...
every story has been done in some way. know, there's that thing about there's the universal stories, the story arcs, the story, you know, the universal stories, etc. And so at the end of the day, it's just about how we what have we got in our brains? What have we got through our experiences that we are bringing that is different, that we're reflecting and that, readers are coming into? And obviously, you've got a passionate and committed readership. If they're contacted,
Paola (10:21)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (10:43)
you and telling you things about you know what you're doing wrong. I want to ask a practical question this is for myself. How are you tracking your series you know continuity and what happened before and who did what because that's where I'm up to now.
Paola (10:49)
Okay.
God, okay,
so you talked about you thought you'd be a panther and then you became a plotter. It's the opposite for me. So in my previous life as a corporate person,
I and I continue to be in my personal life as well. I mean our household works as a machine. We both, my husband and I are very organized, very organized, very much into efficiency, things in their place, in the way that they they're used. So I had the feeling or I thought actually that I would be like that with my writing.
and it's exactly the opposite. So when I start writing, and it's interesting for a murder mystery, people always ask me this question. So I have an ending in mind and I may have a scattering of scenes in my head, but I don't have a plot line. I have no idea what's gonna happen. In fact, short of the main characters, I really don't know.
who the other characters are going to be. They write themselves, they come off the page. And so the way it works for me is I just sit there and write whatever comes out. And at the end of it, once I know who the murderer is, which by the way, I think I may know, but it inevitably changes halfway through or towards the last third of the book. And so I go back.
⁓ In one of my edits and I make sure that all the clues are in the right Place and pointing in the right direction and a lot of people are horrified by this But about a mystery surely you need to work out each step. I mean actually not if you know
At the end of the day, you know how the person was murdered, which I do. So that's something that I do know on this stuff. Or at least part of it. Then planting the clues along the way, it's easy. You may have to tweak here and there in some scenes, but it's not a complete rewrite.
And so that works for me. And I cannot bring, there's been a couple of times, I think it happened with one book and maybe a little bit on this last one I wrote, which is I got to halfway and I was blocked. And so I went, okay, I'm going to write a plot line.
to end it, you know, because I know it. And I wrote this really, really high level plot line and never ever looked at it again. But that got me, that got me going and I went, okay, I'll keep going. So I'm not, I can't think like that with writing. It's a completely different part of my brain and it just doesn't work.
Amra Pajalic (13:19)
you
Yes.
Yeah.
Well, I'm going to be curious to see what happens with this latest book because sort of the previous ones I knew the mystery aspect. This one, I know the mystery, but I'm like, I might play with who I'm going to make the murderer. So yeah, we'll see where the world is kind of there.
So I wanted to talk about, you know, you're now a full-time author, which is absolutely amazing. And this is the thing I was traditionally published, you know, and had the agent and all of that stuff. And, you know, only like 1 % of traditionally published authors are managing to live, to, you know, write full-time and live off their writing. Whereas in the indie world, it is a lot more common.
And so this really is the viable way of moving forward. So can you take us, how did you get to be full-time? What did it take? What are the things that you do to, you know, for the income and yeah, and how has that changed your writing? Because that's the other thing, isn't it?
Paola (14:36)
Yeah it is. Look it's grown organically. When I first started writing again, second time around, I didn't tell anyone. I didn't know where this was going. I just knew I was, this is gonna sound so cliche, but I was unhappy at work. was, I wouldn't say I'm unhappy, not unhappy as in I hated my job or anything like that. I was bored.
I'd done it. Everything seemed to be the same. Yeah, sure. It might've been a different regulation, a different software. I was working with a different project team, but at the end of the day, it was deja vu every time I went into the office. And so I knew I needed a change. So the first thing I did, this is before I actually started writing, I talked to my husband and I started going part-time.
Amra Pajalic (14:59)
Yes.
Paola (15:23)
I needed a little bit of that space to allow the creative side to come out and I started experimenting with a couple of things. I'm also a painter, ⁓ so I've been doing painting for a few years and I love it and I thought I'd explore that a bit more, which actually came in handy later for the covers ⁓ and the ads, but that's another story. ⁓
Amra Pajalic (15:42)
⁓ we will come back to that.
Paola (15:48)
But in any case, when I started exploring, went, you know what? I still have this itch. I want to write, I want to write. Do I have it in me to write a full book? Because you hear the stories, right? You know what it's like. and I love this comment, yeah, yeah, I want to write a book. I'll do it one day.
Amra Pajalic (16:06)
Everybody, everybody!
And you just look at them and you go, really? You think it's so easy, you can just say it. Like saying is not doing people. Doing is doing.
Paola (16:17)
No, no.
Yes, and so I went, okay, I mean I wasn't unfamiliar with writing because I had done it earlier. And I thought if I can write a book, actually it wasn't even that. I've got these stories running in my head, let's put it.
not on paper, on computer. And I just sat down and started writing and writing. And I didn't tell anyone, not even my husband, who's my best friend. And then I got to a point and I went, my God, I've written 60,000 words. This is actually a book. And that's when I started telling people. And...
Amra Pajalic (16:49)
Yes.
Paola (16:54)
The reactions were interesting. It was like, okay, this is another experiment. A lot of people went, ⁓ this is another experiment. You're going through a phase. And a lot of my friends thought I'd go back full time to the corporate job. And I just went, well, you know, I'll keep going. I've got a book, I'll finish it. And I did, I did. And I went, okay, well, I finished it. What's next? So I published.
And then I went, my God! I didn't realize how little I knew about the whole thing. And that's when I started the process of getting myself into writing communities online. And I now have a small, relatively small group of criticus and we critique each other online, which is a fabulous group.
very loyal, very supportive and that transformed my writing. You know, the most important lesson apart from read a lot is you cannot write without others. You just can't. You need someone else's eyes. You know what you're trying to say, not what you wrote.
Amra Pajalic (17:54)
Yeah,
yeah, it's very hard to see that external, have that external vision of your book. Yeah.
Paola (17:57)
It is very, very hard. It's very hard.
Then I armed myself with all sorts of, I'm technically minded and my husband is even more so. So I created a website, started getting my newsletter out. I started building and then I got into Facebook ads. So I did some courses, learned about it and I went.
And I think half a dozen people have read my book. And I had three books out by then. And I think most of them were friends and family, by the way. So I went, okay, I think I'm at a stage now where I think I'm ready to advertise and see if anyone else thinks my books are any good. Because, you know, when you write, or for me anyway,
I want people to read them and get something nice out of it. Take them somewhere. Show them certain things. Leave them with hope.
Amra Pajalic (18:47)
ideas.
Paola (18:48)
And so I want my books to be read. I'm not writing just for me. I am writing for me, but not just for me. So I thought, I'll start advertising. So I learned how to create ads. I started testing it and much to my surprise, I was selling. And I kind of panicked and I stopped. What am I doing?
But then little by little I gave myself confidence and I've been running ads on different platforms now for what are we 25 so for a year and a half. So I do my own marketing. mean, Tik Tok, mean, Bookbub, I mean, Facebook ads.
and I've sold thousands of books and then the other thing that did help and actually the funny thing is I didn't do it for this reason but the other thing I did was translate the books so I did it because of my background because I was raised in different cultures and I do speak three languages and I and I can order a cup of coffee in a few others and I
Amra Pajalic (19:27)
Amazing.
Thanks.
Paola (19:50)
wanted to share it with those different cultures. Like I had no clue whether it would actually, they would like it. It's set in Sydney. It's a little bit weird. You know, it's our culture. And I went with French first. So I thought, well, know, ties, you know, knowledge and stuff. And I put out the book.
And I started getting some French readers sending me comments saying, I love it. by the way, here's a little mistake you made. And here's another little mistake you made. it's just, but they were, you know, I had expected them that if I made mistakes, they would be really angry, right? That's your expectation. Like I'm mad when I find a typo that somehow, despite all the process, gets through.
Amra Pajalic (20:17)
Wonderful.
always slip through.
Paola (20:33)
And I'm thinking, my god, my god, I was devastated. And I did go through one bad experience where I hired someone for German. And German was a hard language for me because I don't speak it. I've started learning it, by the way, because, you know, I'm sort of, I need to know a little bit more about it. And they actually didn't do a good job at all. So I'm now having those redone. I've discovered a new translator and she's wonderful.
Amra Pajalic (20:48)
amazing.
Paola (20:59)
adorable and we talk on video and it's fantastic how you develop relationships with these people and then I said to my husband in fact he said it to me I think I am a small business I employ people and so Germany became slowly is now on par no in fact I think it's more than the US in terms of my profitability
Amra Pajalic (21:09)
You are. You are. Absolutely.
Paola (21:22)
I've got super fans in Germany or what you would call super fans who write to me and you know it's just been the most amazing amazing experience. ⁓
Amra Pajalic (21:34)
So you haven't
been, because like I'm seeing in the indie world, there's Scribe Shadow, which is a AI company.
Paola (21:39)
Yes, yes, so I do use
Scrap Shadow but I have human translators on top of that. ⁓
Amra Pajalic (21:48)
And you
source your own translators to go through the scribe shadow version. And how have you been finding your translators?
Paola (21:50)
Yes, yes, yes. I'll do it.
⁓ So it's all been through online platforms. So I'll tell you the story of the German one because that's... It's kind of funny. Jana says he was meant to be. I don't know. Anyway, so I put the ad up.
And for me, you know, I don't want, I want the best possible quality to go out there. So I was not prepared to just do the translation and let it go like that. Cause I know that I makes mistakes. You know, when you do translations, you know, because I speak the languages and it's easier for me to pick it up. But German, of course I was going blind. So I...
Amra Pajalic (22:19)
Yeah.
Paola (22:29)
put the ad up and she answered it and she wasn't the cheapest, she wasn't the most expensive, it was just sort of in the middle and there was something about her bio that sort of appealed to me and so we started chatting, she agreed to take on the job and then she had done, I don't know if it was one book or two and she sent me a message and she said, would you like to meet ⁓ in Australia, backpacking.
⁓ So she was in Australia when she took on the job. I didn't know this. I went, of course. And so we met up and we chatted for like two hours. It was fantastic. She's back in Germany now, but we do talk on video from time to time. So that's how I found my translators and I've developed a relationship. No, no, no. So freelancer and network. I'm a major two source.
Amra Pajalic (23:07)
So where did you advertise? Facebook or Facebook Groups or our freelancer network?
Paola (23:15)
⁓ Upwork. It's called Upwork.
Amra Pajalic (23:15)
great. Upwork, Upwork.
Okay,
yeah, it's fabulous how you do those connections because I did my books as audio books and developed a friendship with my narrator. And I interviewed her for my podcast and we check in with each other. And so that's the thing, like we're in this world where we're dealing with, you know, creativity, creative people. We want to connect. And I'm actually wanting to, that's going to be my goal next year to translate this series. But because I'm Bosnian,
I'm like I am embarrassed to translate into other languages until I translate in Bosnian and so I have gone through and used Google Translate because scribe shadow doesn't do Bosnian and Translated the whole book and my husband who's Bosnian born is going through and Editing and correcting and then I'm gonna get someone else. ⁓ I know in the community to proofread it ⁓ And then I'm publish it in Bosnia
Paola (23:51)
Okay.
Okay, I'm fixing it.
Yes.
Mm.
Amra Pajalic (24:14)
because I just know if I try to do another language I'll have angry people going really really you're doing this other language but not Bosnian
Paola (24:18)
Mm.
Most of them, yeah, you know it's interesting because I started with French but I didn't tell the Spanish side of the family because I knew they would react as well and they would go, why aren't you doing this? Yeah. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (24:35)
Yes, yeah.
No, it's
it's but yeah, okay. Yeah, so I'm also asking for myself. But also, that's the wonderful thing about being a small business the way that we are being indie authors. The all of the opportunities we have to, you know, basically, you know, exploit our intellectual property, you know, so one book becomes numerous books. ⁓ Have you done any audio books?
Paola (24:55)
Yes. Yes.
Yes.
Yes, so one of my closest friends, she's got an amazing, beautiful voice. So she is narrating my books and she has done four in The Greenwich and she's working on finishing number five, which is the final book in the series. So I've got people writing to me and saying, where's the final book? But it takes an awful long time to do it and to do it properly.
So I'm not an audiobook person myself. So I actually wasn't thinking of doing it, but she offered. And so I went and he was our third friend. sort of have a trio of friends. We normally do things together. And he said, no, no, no, do it, do it. Give it a, give these a go. So we did. And it's out there. Just.
As you say, it gives us the freedom to explore all of these different opportunities that traditionally published doesn't necessarily give you.
Amra Pajalic (25:54)
No,
because if they don't earn a profit, they're not going to move forward with any of these things. And once they have your rights, you're stuck. You can't do anything unless and until...
Paola (25:57)
No.
Yes, no.
Amra Pajalic (26:06)
they you know feel like it or you try and get those some of those rights back but they do get a little they get touchy they get touchy because my my memoir was traditionally published and shortlisted for a prize and I wanted to do the audiobook and narrate it myself and he gave me those rights back and so was able to do that as an audiobook
Paola (26:12)
Which is a nightmare.
Amra Pajalic (26:30)
But he was like, only the audio. And I went, okay. And so I'm actually just counting down until the 10 year mark when I get the rights back to that book. And then I can, you know, do the different, different things. Because it's only Australian. That's the other thing. Like the audio book gives me the international market, but the paperback is Australian only.
Paola (26:49)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (26:52)
Yeah, yeah, like I've slowly gotten back the rights to my traditionally published. And now I just, I'm too wary. I would only do traditional, like where some of those successful authors are licensing certain rights where, you know, they can do the paperbacks only in Australia, because I've got the bookstores and stuff like that. So being careful about what you give them.
Paola (27:14)
Yeah, I've
heard some... You know, the interesting thing is in the press you get almost the opposite story. So every time I see an article like the Sidhman and Harold and he says, ⁓ wonderful in the author and you're halfway through and they said, and I've sold my rights to traditional publisher. It seems to be like the pinnacle, the aim. And I still have people coming to me and say, so you're waiting until a traditional publisher comes to you.
My answer is no. Not only am I not waiting, if they do come in, like you say, I'm not going to sell the whole set of rights. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (27:49)
No, like you would really be looking at that contract with a fine-toothed
comb. When I started indie publishing, I actually created myself as a small press. So I registered my business name and created a website, which is now my shop. And I published my husband, who's also an award-winning short story writer. So I'm like, I am a small press. And so that's how I'm positioning myself, even though I don't
have the capacity to publish anyone else because until and unless I am able to do what you're doing which is the the full-time writing and the income being generated from that and then being able to take on other things ⁓ I am at capacity trying to do everything for myself yeah
Paola (28:17)
No.
Yeah. ⁓
Yes.
Yeah, and it is it is very much a full time job. It's more than that. I had I went through a period when I first started doing translations where I was working 16 hour days, seven days a week. My daughter still says, mom, you're working harder than you did before. And it's like, yes, we had. But I love it. But I have pulled back because.
you do have limits, you do have...
you need to be rested, you need to be in a good position and in good health and you can't just work stupid hours all the time. It's just so I've learned to manage my time better.
Amra Pajalic (29:12)
But also now you've got that, where you've diversified your income, you diversified your income streams and you know the fact that you've learnt Facebook ads, your
presumably doing Facebook ads in all the different countries that you've got the books in. So, you know, it's that wonderful thing of being able to have that set up now, that ecosystem where it's, I don't know, you sort of figure out flows and that's what I'm figuring out now. Like at first, every new thing that you do is just terrifying and exhausting. Even this podcast, I only started enjoying it like, I don't know, five episodes.
Paola (29:23)
Yes, yes I am.
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Amra Pajalic (29:48)
to go because it was just so nerve-racking and so like my god whereas now I'm like I know how to do it and now I can just enjoy the conversation and just enjoy the moment and it's the same with the publishing world.
Paola (30:04)
Yes, yes it is. You get into a routine which sounds boring but it's not. It's more like a process. I write and I only exclusively write and critique as well as managing the rest of it. And then I get to a point where I start editing. I'm not writing whilst I'm editing. There might be a small overlap, a couple of weeks, because...
your brain then becomes this second part and you can dedicate yourself to that. You can't constantly be moving from one thing to the other. It's just it's too much. ⁓
Amra Pajalic (30:34)
That's right. Yeah.
Yeah, it's that juggling. It's that keeping up. I just wanted to pick up the thread where you were talking about how being a painter helped you with covers.
Paola (30:44)
I guess because you understand paintings, understand the basics, you understand what is pleasing to the eye but you also understand elements so when you look at covers people go it just has to be pretty which was my first thought by the way I'll admit it's pretty little work
Amra Pajalic (31:01)
We, that's right. It's a whole
different thing thinking about covers. It's a whole brain thing.
Paola (31:07)
Yes
it is.
So it's easier for me to then look at all, which is what I do, it's I look at all the similar genres to mine, remembering that I do cross genre, but I actually advertise myself as urban fantasy. I do put cozy in front of it, where I can, so people don't expect, you know, gore and violence and all the rest of it, because you get a little bit of that, but not, I'm not into gore or violence. So, um...
So I advertise like that. So I actually compare the top 100 covers that writers are like, and I look at their covers and I analyze their covers. And so you have to be able to dissect the elements on the cover. Probably my weakest point is the actual fonts. So my daughter who did marketing,
Amra Pajalic (31:49)
You do.
Yes.
Paola (31:59)
not as a career but as a you know when you know the clubs at university and stuff she did a lot of that she helped me with that you know i'm hopeless with fans it's just like that will do no mum no
Amra Pajalic (32:13)
Yeah.
No, because I'm doing my own covers for Crime. It's a landscape now and the colourful font. I did a lot of research and I have stock photo websites and stuff. And so she really helps me with placement and figuring out and I put it together and I start sort of, have concepts and I'm like, which one? And then she's like, no, do this and do that. And so my first
Paola (32:19)
Okay. Yeah.
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (32:42)
three covers, I'm so happy with them. And now then I had to do the next three because the first three books are scheduled for publication and I'm writing book five. So I'm like, need the next three and I need them to be consistent. And so I just spent, you know, a week playing around, finding different photos, you know, doing ⁓ things. And I finally just got them figured out. And I just felt this great relief where I'm like,
Paola (32:52)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (33:08)
But I am looking forward to ⁓ generating enough income to be able to outsource that at some point. Thankfully for this genre, it's easy because it is that just the landscape, whereas for urban fantasy.
Paola (33:19)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah,
no, no, you can't. And to be honest, that would be one of the things I would not want to give up. I really enjoy doing the covers myself. just, I spend hours, hours and hours in a cover. I take my hat off to any cover creator. They do a fantastic job ⁓ and it is hard work.
Amra Pajalic (33:42)
Yeah.
Paola (33:44)
But I love it. I guess that's the artist in me, you know, and I've got this image in my head and that's what I want to go for. So, yeah, that's one thing I would not give up. There are other things that I would love to. Editing is one of But you know, even with editing, you can't as a writer completely outsource it.
It needs to keep your style, your voice, your sense in it. So you can't just say, okay, you fix it. It just doesn't work like that. I mean, my husband and I have spent, because he does the final pass for me. So he's done writing studies. And so he does the final editing, aside from me. And we'll spend 20 minutes arguing over a sentence.
Amra Pajalic (34:26)
Yeah.
There's nothing like ⁓
doing those sort of collaborative things like my husband and I had when I was publishing his short story collection. Yes, yes. Entertaining moments. And then also when he, cause I was a writer my whole life and he sort of came to writing late to deal with some, some mental health issues and stuff. And so I was like his, ⁓ critiquer at first. Ooh, that was fun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Paola (34:30)
you
⁓ tough tough tough tough
Amra Pajalic (34:53)
and then it went on the other foot where he was my critique.
Paola (34:53)
my god
Amra Pajalic (34:56)
I think I took it better, okay? I would just like to say I took it better. Yeah, well, you might have a different version of events, but I stand by it. But yeah, it's really good when you've got that support system where, you know.
Paola (35:02)
Should I ask him?
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (35:14)
And also you do create that ecosystem where, know, I have a proofreader, ⁓ you know, who does that, you know, I have a narrator when I'm ready to narrate this series, hopefully. So like you do create and then now I'm going to be doing what you're doing. I'm going to be doing translating and I know to go to Upwork, was it?
Paola (35:17)
Yes. Yes.
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (35:35)
Yeah, I work to find ⁓ people to help me because it really makes a difference because I know that scribe shadow is supposed to be really good, but it does. It does so many, you know, like even my husband's going through the the Bosnian version and it's like, you know, in our culture, there's the name for the paternal uncle, for the maternal uncle, for the paternal aunt, the maternal aunt. AI doesn't differentiate. And then there's the different ways of saying grandparents depending on your region, you know, it might be
Paola (35:39)
Yes.
No. No. No, no, no, no.
Amra Pajalic (36:05)
Dido, might be dedo, it might be, you know, so it's like all these different things. So it just kind of randomly assigns things. So yeah, you really do need that human touch.
Paola (36:15)
no, no,
you do. some of the fundamentals with European languages, and this is where I'm lucky that I actually understand it because I do speak others. they have the formal and informal. So you have the vus and the tu in French, you have the du and the si in German.
the same with Italian and Spanish. They have the vosotros, if it's Spain or the ustedes, if it's Latin America. it's again, that's regional, right? And even in Spain itself, the way they say one thing versus another. I mean, I actually had a funny thing where my translator in Germany, she did something and then I give it to my one of my super fans first before I publish it. So he goes through it one more time and he corrected
something and I sent it back to to Yana and I said oh do you agree and she looked at it and she investigated she said oh is how we say it in this part of Germany it's like this just this region in Germany they say it like that but the rest of Germany or standard German they use what my
reader said so you know even stuff like that it's just it's just impossible but that first translation in German was devastating for me because it made you know apart from mixing the formal and informal within the chapter which is you know particularly for the French is you you know they they have this and German as well for that matter you know you have ways of talking to people you haven't met someone before unless you're young and casual you would use the formal but it's just
Amra Pajalic (37:22)
Yeah.
Mm.
Yeah, like
in Bosnian, if you're speaking to someone and you want him to show respect, you speak to them in third person.
⁓ do you want this? like not them but like you know and so you speak to them in a a formal way and then there's a female and the male so we change the the way that we say the name depending on the object and then the way that you know verbs feminine and male yeah like it just and if it doesn't recognize it doesn't know that the name is male or female it just
Paola (37:53)
Okay.
Yes.
No. And there are some
not so funny things, you know, for example in English. English is a funny language, right? ⁓
Amra Pajalic (38:24)
my gosh, isn't it? When you've got another
language and then you go to English and I teach EAL, so I teach students in high school who have been in Australia for less than seven years and I actually show them YouTube clips of how English does not make sense, of the fact that it's an amalgamation of all these different languages and when you look at some verbs, you know, the regular and irregular verbs and all this, it doesn't make sense. It does not make sense.
Paola (38:28)
Yeah. ⁓ okay.
No.
Yes.
No. No.
So for example take the word, some of my Greenwich mysteries, right? So she owns a landscape nursery business. So in my books I had nursery. Guess what? In German he translated that as children's nursery. Right? Yeah. And he translated bike, which was a motorbike, as bicycle.
Amra Pajalic (39:04)
Yes, yes, completely wrong, completely wrong, yeah.
Yes, yes. Yeah, there's so many things like you really, mean, it's wonderful that there's this technology now, because it is much easier, my husband going through and editing the where it's already there. I mean, he's working on it every day, like five pages. So it is still exhausting, but trying to do the whole thing. Yeah.
Paola (39:17)
Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. yeah, takes ages. No, you can't.
No.
Amra Pajalic (39:33)
No, it's
still a lot more. So it is wonderful that we've got this opportunity and these tools now, but you can't replace that human touch and you can't sort of, yeah, no.
Paola (39:38)
Yeah.
No,
not if some people do, but I think it's disrespectful, you know, for my craft, for me, for me. I could not bring myself to put a book that wasn't to the best of my ability in whatever language it is.
Amra Pajalic (40:02)
I think I'm going to be a bit mean and I'm going to say people who do are the people who don't have another language.
and don't really understand what it means and the nuances of what it means. Because I lived in Bosnia, I was born in Australia, but I lived in Bosnia, I went through the education system. So even though my language skills now are still kind of primary school level, and I can speak, read and write, but not fabulous, I am able to see the grammatical mistakes that it makes even at my basic understanding.
Paola (40:11)
the subtlety.
Yeah. Yes.
Amra Pajalic (40:36)
And so yeah, it just, and then there's just something within you where you're like, ⁓ I know it's not gonna be good. I just know, and you just want readers to have that experience. Yeah, you don't want them to be taken out of the story. And also what we're doing now with series, it's so important about read through where people keep going.
Paola (40:47)
experience yes yes
Yeah, I had
actually a German reader who wrote to me. This is how I found out that their first translation wasn't done properly. So the first proofreading that I did for German wasn't done. He wrote to me a fairly long email, very German. It was in English, he wrote it in English, but it was very German. The Germans are very direct, which is wonderful, right?
Amra Pajalic (41:16)
Yes.
Paola (41:18)
you see what you get. So he said to me that he read my books and he loved them but he got frustrated with some of the translation and he had to get the English book to be able to figure out what I was saying.
and could I please, you know, fix it? And so I wrote back to him and I said, I'm really, really sorry. This is what happened. I am fixing it, but it's taking time. You know, it's not a five minute job to fix it. And he wrote back to me and he said, thank you. I'm really happy that I wrote to you. I've never done it before.
Thank you for the gift, your book, your imagination, your will. For someone like me who's a retired engineer, being able to access these books means a lot. I was like,
Amra Pajalic (41:57)
amazing.
You can't like that's the thing when you get people that's why now at the moment it's so frustrating all those emails from AI generated things where they're trying to get our business and we get excited when they're like, you know, got the title of our book and we're like, it's a reader. And then they're like, it was so like all these generic stuff, your book about justice and all they're doing is taking picking up words from the blurb. And you're like, really, you know, but when you get that genuine reader who has actually
Paola (42:28)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (42:28)
connected.
it's everything, it's just everything.
Paola (42:32)
It is. had the most moving one was a French reader. He said it was a long, we exchanged a few emails, but it was a long one. And she said, your books helped me get through my morphine patches. She was recovering, not only recovering, but she was going through cancer treatment.
Amra Pajalic (42:48)
Yeah, and that's the thing, that's what books are for us. I, my memoir is about growing up with my mum who had bipolar and about what that meant because you know, mental illness is really terrible, but within an in a non-English speaking background context, there's a whole other layer of what goes on with it. And so, you know, writing that memoir was me figuring things out, but I had so many women
to me who had mothers who suffered from bipolar and then also men writing to me who connected with the male with my father and my stepfather story and that stuff that's just you don't know like that's the joy of putting things out there we don't know we don't know what will connect with people what they will read I even I wrote an article for the age about menopause and being repulsed by babies and I had two women writing to me thank you thank you
Thank you!
deliberately wrote it because I'm like, need to have menopause on the conversation, you know, on the table. And I was like, I know that there will be people who will be judging me and going, you're horrible. And it's like, no, I'm maternal. Thank you. I have a child. have a beautiful relationship with her, but I cannot look at babies anymore. was never fond of them. But now there's this whole physical response that occurs. And you know, you put these
things out there because that's what's going on in your head. That's that unique thing that you have that no one else has. Yeah, so I love that. Now just wanted to talk a little bit more about lessons learned because so you've you've kind of talked about
Paola (44:19)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (44:28)
you know, things. I sort of did want to talk about your typical day. I really think that anyone who does not understand the indie world, you know, I get strange questions sometimes we can't help get offended. They're like, do you edit your books? Like, of course I do.
You know, like it's I am treating this as a small business and with professionalism and that is what requires you've gone through in terms of like the translating like even with the audiobooks, we have to proofread, proof listen to everything and yeah, it is. I love it. I actually am starting to appreciate and love love audiobooks. I go between both.
Paola (44:58)
Yes, proof listen. ⁓ and that's so painful because I'm not an audio person. I'm not an audio person. Do you? ⁓ no.
find it so difficult, so much so that I've actually asked my husband. Yeah. Well, he's read every single one of my books because he's edited them. And he's an audio person and he picks up more things than I do because I just, I find it really, really difficult to concentrate on audio. Yeah. So that's just me. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (45:13)
Yeah, yeah, no, you can outsource that because at the end of the day, as long as they follow on with the book.
Yeah.
It is a different way. Like I remember the first time I
listened to an audiobook, the first 20 minutes I was just like, like really struggling. And then something where I did this switch and now it doesn't matter to me whether I read a physical book or I listen to an audiobook, the images are there. I still have pictures in my head. And the reason I like audiobooks is when
I'm doing boring things, like really boring things and it's like I just want to get out of this reality but I can't read because I'm doing things that's when so take me through your typical day or your typical week maybe like
Paola (45:59)
Okay.
Yeah, yeah.
okay so a typical day would be and I don't distinguish with weekends so I usually get up at around 5 530 maybe and I'll do writing things until about 7 730 so I'll my critique I'll
myself at speed with different writers forums because it's important in this business to keep up to date with changes with all sorts of things that are happening out there and the forums are fundamental for that and all the forums that I attend except for one in the royalty they're international writers forums so ⁓ and we all support and you know answer questions when people have questions
So my first bit of the morning is more about that than actual writing. Then I'll go for a walk and a swim. So we go for an hour, we're going to the national park, swim along the way. And that's when I do all my plotting. And my husband will talk to me and I'll go, what? And he'll go, there you go, you're plotting again. Yeah, I am, I am.
and then I'll come back and then I'll start. If it's a writing period, so I'll go to the writing again. So if it's a writing period, I'll sit there and write until about 12 31.
I'll then relax and do something else and then I'll come back and I'll do critiquing. I'll do marketing Depending on what's going on at the time Because I've got to maintain those relationships with my critiquers So it's not like I can choose to critique or not critiquing at a given point, right? So they have their their books manuscripts ready for editing at different points in time So it's not like I can't say you know
weeks time I'll go and critique you it just doesn't quite work like that so I'll make time for that in the afternoon and translations is an it's another
So for example right now I've just finished editing the final manuscript so that means I'm into translations now. So when you do translations people have got this image with crowd shadow for example that you just press a button ⁓
Amra Pajalic (48:15)
did, I did, that's why I'm so glad I talked
to you.
Paola (48:18)
No, no, no.
So we've got a system now and I actually use my husband for this as well. So we have to introduce things like, and this is where Scrap Shadow is better than say Google Translate. So what you can do is you create some things like never translate or always translate this way. So if I want, and this is critical for...
urban fantasy where you've got magical names for things or titles or whatever and so you want to translate it in a specific way so you put it you put a list of these things in there with French is is tricky because the French separate the dialogue so you know how we say in English we will say come on she said and then put her hat on well that she put her hat on
will have to go on another line even if she says something else after that and then that something else needs to go unless it has the she said or she asked that goes into another line so all of that has to be done pre-translation because doing it I've done it in French and it drives me crazy so it's easier to do in English so all of that work goes and happens before you actually put the manuscript in so you need to really know your stuff and it's also experience you
You learn what it translates well and what it doesn't translate well. For example, now I write motorbike. I no longer do moto, or bike, sorry, bike because then it can confuse it. So you do things like that to try and make sure that it does the right thing. There'll still be errors, but you're reducing them, right? And then you do a check because it doesn't always get it right. So you go, okay, I have...
Amra Pajalic (49:43)
Yes, you did, yeah.
Paola (49:56)
you know, say 40 take majors here, how many technique major do I have in here? Do I have 40 or do I have 39? Okay, what happened to the 40? So, you know, it's, there's a little bit of extra work in there before you can give it to a proofreader.
So yes, once you put it in the scribe shadow, it's five, 10 minutes, but the pre-work and the post-work, it's quite significant. Anyway, so I got subtract. So that's my typical day. That's multiplied by seven days a week. And then there's a period where I just write. So for two months, that's what I do, I just write. And then the next.
two months I'm editing and so that's sort of it and there's a little bit of what they like that's a cycle that's a cycle
Amra Pajalic (50:37)
That cycle. Yeah. Yeah. And I
think that's the other thing. Like there is that view that as indie authors, because, know, in the traditional publishing world, it's like, you know, you work on one book for 10 years and we've all done it. You know, like my first book of my series is my PhD book. And so that was seven years, but I wrote three books.
in those seven years, but supervisors were like, we're not reading the three, we're only reading the one that you're submitting. But you know, like there's that thing of you just keep.
Paola (50:58)
Yeah, okay.
Amra Pajalic (51:07)
writing on the working on the same thing over and over again but when you are an indie author it really is about releasing it really is about and if you need to you go back you know if you need to you go back you do editing work you change the cover you change the title you rebrand the series like you know if you've learned something new you apply it but you don't learn if you don't move forward
Paola (51:16)
Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes.
Yes, that's exactly right. And that's how it's been for me. That experience, for example, that first book that I put out, I went back and with everything I'd learned, I rewrote a lot of it over time. it's you learn and you keep, you keep, sometimes you go back, you know, I changed when I first did the first cover, it wasn't the right cover.
So I changed that and now I'm consistent and I've got a system but the first cover was wrong and I had to change it.
Amra Pajalic (51:58)
Yeah, and that usually does happen for us because
we are sort of learning, like it took me a while with the covers. And even my daughters now, like the first series I did, the Young Adult series where I got the rights back. She's like, mum, they're good covers. You you really did do a good job, but you're eating so much with these next covers for this series. And that's the thing, like you don't grow by staying still.
you only grow by learning. Well, I think that's a great place for us to end. I am so thankful that you put yourself forward as my guinea pig to try this new software that I'm trying for my podcast so that I can interview more people and just really open it up. But
Thank you so much. was just such a great, so generous thought. It's really helped me with my next steps and my professional learning. So I thank you so much for that.
Paola (52:46)
No.
It's been a pleasure talking to you. It felt like we were just chatting. So thank you. You made me very comfortable.
Amra Pajalic (52:55)
It,
thank you very much.