34-Start Messy, Start Anyway (How an Instagram Live Grew Into a Whole Community), interviewing Mirela Cufurovic
Podcast: Download (Duration: 40 minutes)
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You can listen above or on your favourite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
Subscribe: Spotify | Apple | RSS | More
You can listen above or on your favourite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
Show notes
The conversation with Mirela Cufurovic covers her projects, including Tea Time with Mirela and the Australian Muslim Review, as well as the challenges and opportunities in the publishing industry. Mirela's work focuses on amplifying diverse voices, fostering genuine connections, and addressing the limitations of traditional publishing. She also discusses the impact of her projects on professional development and the need for greater representation in literature and history. The conversation covers a wide range of topics including the challenges of applying for grants and funding, the manipulation in the publishing industry, the impact of self-publishing, the importance of intention and passion in creative projects, and the issue of burnout and sustaining creativity. The discussion also delves into the value of genuine connection, the joy of connecting with like-minded individuals, and the significance of trusting oneself.
Takeaways
Chapters
Takeaways
- Amplifying diverse voices
- Challenges in traditional publishing Challenges of applying for grants and funding
- Impact of self-publishing
- Importance of intention and passion in creative projects
- Issue of burnout and sustaining creativity
- Value of genuine connection and trust in oneself
Chapters
- 00:00 Limitations of Traditional Publishing
- 42:00 Value of Genuine Connection and Trust in Oneself
Connect with Mirela Cufurovic
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Mirela Cufurovic is a historian, writer, interviewer, and founder of Tea Time with Mirela, an Instagram interview series with female authors in Australia. Through long-form discussions with writers, academics, artists, and community voices, she has built a platform that values nuance, intellectual curiosity, and genuine dialogue in an online space often driven by speed and simplification.
She is also the founder of The Australian Muslim Review on Substack, an independent publication dedicated to amplifying Muslim voices, ideas, literature, history, and cultural commentary beyond the narrow frameworks often presented in mainstream media. Her work explores the importance of storytelling, historical memory, representation, and community-led media spaces. Personal - https://mirelacufurovic.substack.com TAMR - https://theaustralianmuslimreview.substack.com Tea Time with Mirela - https://mirelacufurovic.substack.com/podcast |
Transcript of episode
Amra Pajalic (00:00)
Welcome to Amra's Arm Chair's Anecdotes. Today I'm talking to Mirila Chufurovich, another Bosnian, who is a historian, writer, interviewer, and we met because she's founder of Tea Time with Mirala, an Instagram interview series with female authors in Australia. So she did long form discussions with writers, academics, artists, and community voices and built a platform that values nuance, intellectual curiosity, and genuine dialogue. And she is now
Mirela Cufurovic (00:06)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (00:30)
Founder of the Australian Muslim Review on Substack, an independent publication dedicated to amplifying Muslim voices, ideas, literature, history, and cultural commentary. Her work explores storytelling, historical memory, representation, and drawing. You're drawing on your background as a historian, your approach, interviews and writing with a deep interest about how stories are preserved, interpreted, and shared. Thank you so much for joining me.
Mirela Cufurovic (00:59)
it's lovely to be here. I can't wait to dive into a conversation with you.
Amra Pajalic (01:02)
Yeah, I mean we met because you started tea time with Myrala and you invited me to be on. What was what made you start that project?
Mirela Cufurovic (01:12)
Hm. I I've always had an interest of connecting with people and because of my interest in literature and I every time I read a book I fall in love with the author and I'm like, okay, this is like this is a real human being both this and I wanna get to know the human behind the stories and I started to time with Mirawa because I wanted to have those conversations with authors like yourself to better understand your writing process.
And also and yes it was kind of a learning experience for me, so to learn a more about writing and how how writers approach the writing process and how they do storytelling. But I also wanted to create a platform that was available to audiences and that is why I thought, Hey, let me let me try let me try this. It's not perfect. I'm not an expert at doing recording or podcasts, but it I just wanted some genuine connection and genuine interaction.
Amra Pajalic (02:11)
Yeah, and why why did you choose Instagram Instagram as a platform for that?
Mirela Cufurovic (02:16)
So Instagram as a platform I I I think one reason was because I wanted to create a live event and you know, interestingly, every single author I have interviewed had never been had never used Instagram live before for an interview. So I always found that very interesting. Like every time they say, like this is my first time, what do I do? How do I so I I would always have like a ten minutes before the interview, let's do a mic check, let's
see if everything works before the live you know, it goes to the audience. And that was also good because then it helps authors also experience something new, which I hope that they took an experience from it. but also to just draw in an audience that could be engaged in the conversation in real time. And I think as someone who lives in regional New South Wales
A lot of the opportunities for author events and author conversations are down in Sydney, w which is, you know, yeah. and they often occur at night, often on Tuesdays for some reason and it's just for me to travel to attend an hour or a two hour event and come back home, it it it's really it's stifling and it's very I the opportunities the opportunity isn't there.
So I thought, well, let me try and create a platform where I get to have this opportunity but also I get to extend the opportunity for anyone to access this at any time that is convenient for them. So although it is live, I do save the live onto my profile so that you can go back and listen and and add your comments or questions or reach out to the author directly after.
Amra Pajalic (03:55)
Yeah. Point actually. I did one live event where someone organized it and coordinated it, but I do think that's a a missed opportunity. I guess the thing about it though, it is pressure. Like I'm interviewing now, but I'm like I'm doing it online, I can edit afterwards, I can remove anything, and so there is that more of that safety to it. Whereas with the live, there is some pressure, it is quite but there is
Mirela Cufurovic (04:08)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (04:25)
There's also, as you said, that interaction. So what were some things that surprised you about it when you were doing those live events?
Mirela Cufurovic (04:31)
I I suppose for me it was getting the seeing people tune in, and seeing people ask questions and being genuinely really interested in the conversation. that would be one surprise. The other surprise is getting messages afterward and saying how much they love the interview or saying how much they love the questions. Because as you said, the pressure is on and preparing for those interviews was very stressful because I was fixating on the questions that I wanted to ask and the tea time sessions were organic. Like I tried to make them as organic as possible. So I didn't want to have like these predetermined questions and I wanted the author to just speak to their own experiences and drive off that. But also that was very pressure intensive as well because it's like, okay, well it depends on what they say. I have to like be quick and and think on my feed about the questions that I want to say 'cause I I don't have that opportunity to edit and
Whatever whatever is saved, it is saved. Like I can't I can't change that. but I will relate one funny incident that happened when I was interviewing Charlene and Ossop for what was her book called again, f The Great Undoing. And it was in it was daytime, it was in the morning. I usually have my sessions at night where my ki where I don't have to my kids are looked after.
And at this one particular day my daughter was home and I'm and I said to her, do not interrupt me. I have a very important interview. And she did interrupt me and she opened the door and she's like, Mama, I have to go do a poo in the toilet And I just went, Okay, okay, just go and do the poo in the toilet. It's fine, you can wipe yourself. She's like, But I have to really do big poo and I'm like, Okay And then I I did have to cut that interview short because I had to tend to her but
Amra Pajalic (06:02)
Ha ha ha.
Mirela Cufurovic (06:16)
That was yeah, that was one very funny incident and I I I'd I've never f like it's something that I think I'll never forget.
Amra Pajalic (06:22)
Yeah, but having said that, we all did so many online things during COVID and really got into it. And then we've got these beautiful memes and all of these things that were happening in real real time that really was fabulous. I mean we met because you did interview me and then we've sort of you know collaborated on an event where you launched my book in Sydney. and we were hoping, you know, I'm sure we will collaborate.
Mirela Cufurovic (06:26)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (06:49)
More there were some other things that were possibly in the works that I haven't worked out, but you know, we we will. and you've you've got your the new project that you're doing, which we'll talk about in a moment. what other connections have have happened? Like, because you know, sometimes we we have ideas or creative projects we want to do, but then you're like, what's the point of this and what's the point of that? And so what I loved about this is you just threw yourself into it, you tried it, things happen. So you have there been other happy
Mirela Cufurovic (07:13)
Mm.
Amra Pajalic (07:17)
things that have happened from it in terms of your professional development?
Mirela Cufurovic (07:21)
think for me one of the best things that have emerged is just connecting with the authors and developing somewhat I mean in some cases acquaintances but also then in others like friendships like yo yourself included. so I think that has been the biggest highlight for me and it's just so great to be able to be in a space where I get to speak with people that I admire and work like to talk about their work and and to and I think ultimately the biggest reason why I also wanted to do the Tea Time sessions is I wanted to, you know, provide a platform for authors to just talk about their books with w in a low pressure setting and just why not? Like to champion their work 'cause like I'm a fan, so why like why not in like introduce their work to other people that might potentially be interested in the same work?
so I think for me it's the connections with the authors themselves that have been the biggest highlight and you know, to this day there are some that I keep you know, continue to talk to and, you know, just connect and providing opportunities. And I think for like for example, there was one author I also so we we did your book launch together, which was fantastic. and then recently I was invited to try and find authors to attend an international women's day event in Oberon, in in a a rural town in New South Wales and I just went,
Well I've made these connections with these authors, let me see who might be interested and I reached and I interviewed Natalia who wrote the Hailstone's Soul Without Rain and from there we developed a a really cool friendship and I went to her book launch and things like that. And then I invited her to attend this International Women's Day event and she she came. So it was like if I hadn't put myself out there and and, you know, made these connections.
I also wouldn't have opportunities to further amplify their work and further provide platforms for them to, you know, t to have their work exposed to different audiences and to kind of challenge opinions about, you know, who gets to write stories and, you know, things like that. Because in this town it's majority white and, you know, I think the p the the authors that I had booked in for this International Women's Day event were all diverse and I remember one person telling me that this panel might be too diverse. I'm like, well there's no such thing as too much diversity. Like, you know, this is the panel that's going to happen and that's going to occur and I think it's very important to challenge, you know, assumptions or stereotypes or prec you know, whatever it is about what it means to be Australian, I I suppose. And I think that in the end it w it ended up being such a wonderful event. We got some great, great feedback and it challenged a lot of people's perspectives, which I think is also something that I am passionate about.
Amra Pajalic (10:15)
Yeah, and I mean, you know, 'cause we come from backgrounds and and we come from, you know, the Bosnian diaspora and our people were discriminated against because of their religion. and so that is something I like that is something that I also take pride in with my podcast. And so listening to you is actually quite inspirational 'cause it's like I am on the right path. I'm doing my little tiny corner of the internet and I'm having fun and who knows.
Mirela Cufurovic (10:22)
Mm.
Amra Pajalic (10:43)
Who knows where it will lead?
Mirela Cufurovic (10:44)
Mm. Exactly. I think that's the thing. It's who knows what's gonna happen and I think that's the fun part of it. I think that's the fun part of starting projects like this because you go in with an idea but then it can take you into surprising places.
Amra Pajalic (10:59)
Exactly, and and that's what I'm finding I'm really enjoying. And then you put all of your tea time on Substack, which was actually the first time I really interacted with that platform. because you put it all up and then you added me as a collaborator and I went on Substack and I'm like, my gosh, this looks so beautiful. Like you did a gorgeous layout, gorgeous presentation and you know, put it in a new format. did did
Mirela Cufurovic (11:10)
Okay.
Amra Pajalic (11:27)
That also leads to, you know, people are you still continuing that series? What's going on with it now?
Mirela Cufurovic (11:32)
So just to answer the first part of your question, I play put it on Substack because I have continu I have multiple times tried to move away from Instagram but I seem stuck there. But one day it will happen. So the my motivation to put it on Substack was to try and get off any meta platforms for a number of reasons.
I haven't I mean th this is the first feedback I've received from someone who has engaged with the interviews on Substack. I am getting some engagement but not nothing that, you know, someone has just given me feedback about. So I'm not sure how well it's going or how many views it's getting or anything like that. I am behind on updating the twenty twenty five interviews, I do need to put them up. and to answer your second question
I have put the two time sessions on pause mainly because I did start a new project which we will talk about. but also because I am in the final year of my PhD and I am very much behind on my writing so I am trying to focus more on doing things that are directly related to my PhD and also that is going to help strengthen my own writing process.
And also to stop myself from reading books that I shouldn't be reading because I've got a whole bunch of nonfiction books related to my PhD that I desperately need to catch up on. So that is the reason why it's on hold and I haven't had any interviews done for twenty twenty six.
Amra Pajalic (12:57)
Mm, yeah, I mean that's the thing, isn't it? We are very ambitious women with so many things we want to do, but only so much time. right now. So I wanted to move on to talk about you know, your new project on Substack, which is the Australian Muslim Review. so can you tell us about that first?
Mirela Cufurovic (13:01)
Yeah. So this project emerged from it actually was inspired by my re by my research, my PhD research. So my PhD research is looking at Australian Muslim identity and I want to understand how whether there is an i identity integration of Muslims in Australia where they see themselves as Australians and as Muslims at the same time. And to understand this I'm looking at it from an emotional perspective. So how does emotion shape this development?
And because it's because it's related to identity and the idea of what it means to be Australian but also the idea of what it means to be Muslim. I and then with my love for literature and I o I've always I've constantly been feeling like I'm stuck in the middle. Like I want to be a historian, I want to get into history but I also want to be a writer and I love writing and I I I thought, hey, I can bridge these two things together and I'm going to start this Australian Muslim Review. So that's where the inspiration of it came from. The reason why I wanted to do it was because I also realized that there was no platform where you could just go and be like, Hey, where are books written by Muslims in Australia? What are they? And are people talking about it and how are they talking about it?
And so I thought if I can start something like this, number one, it's going to put books written by Muslims in Australia in one place. Number two, it's going to encourage cross cultural dialogue, which is also my aim. So it's not just a space for Muslims to access, it's also a space for all Australians to access. Because I want all Australians to know, whether you're Muslim or non Muslim, that, you know, there is literature written by Muslims and this literature has a very important role in understanding Muslim identity in Australia and that we exist and we have a right to exist as Australians and as Muslims. It's still a learning process but it's sharpening my writing skills and it's also sharpening my critical thinking skills, which is something I definitely need as I move into fin finalising my PhD this year.
Amra Pajalic (15:24)
Yeah, well that's the thing. I really enjoyed the process. I was I wanted to do it and then I like piking where I was like, I don't know if I can do it, and then I did it. and it was really great, you know, seeing you in that editorial role. and and doing that that aspect of it too. And it was also quite inspirational because I just I get such a a buzz from seeing, especially, you know, women, just trying different creative areas and and kind of
Mirela Cufurovic (15:36)
Hm. Okay.
Amra Pajalic (15:51)
you know, coming up with ideas, putting them out there and and just building on it. and so that that was also really great. And, you know, we can never have enough conversations about books, reviews about books, you know, pushing pushing all of that, which is really, really great.
Mirela Cufurovic (16:01)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (16:07)
So, you know, in terms of that, like you're what do you I don't know if you've interacted enough with you know, mainstream publishing spaces, but you're kind of seeing what some of the limitations are and you're wanting to redress that. So can you speak to that a little bit?
Mirela Cufurovic (16:18)
Yeah. So I so aside from the role that I have, doing these two projects, I'm also the book reviews editor for History Australia. And this role is similar to what I'm doing with the Australian Muslim Review, is also i slightly inspired my my like the way that I've platformed the review itself. But I as part of this role I have I have to reach out to publishers for you know, review copies of books and I have to kinda figure out what's what's out there, what are historians writing about and, you know, is there are there other historians who would like to review, you know, their colleagues' work, et cetera, et cetera. And I started just noticing a pattern in the kind of historical topics that are out there and I also realised that there's not a lot being published or written about when it co concerns Muslims, and Muslim history. And
In my own experience so I I did write a non fiction, a creative nonfiction work on a Muslim pioneer from Melbourne whose his name is Shahmi Imam and the book's finalised, it's all ready to go and I've pitched it to so many publishers but to no like success. And the large be the the the feedback overall that I've gotten is that it's not marketable. So for me it's what do you mean it's not marketable?
What what does that mean? and yes, you know, maybe it may seem like it's such a niche topic for a niche audience, but when you really think about it, it's a topic about an Australian. You know, an Australian Muslim who's made Australia his home and who's contributed to the large debate or to the large trajectory of Australian history that is often overlooked. And there's so much that we as Muslims can give and to to to show and and to represent.
of what it means to be Australian that isn't discussed in the mainstream discourse. So I think there is a gap in that regard. I think the Australian publishing industry is doing better than it used to in regarding diversity and and p and publishing diverse voices. I don't know if that's because I am surrounded by diverse verse voices so I see it a lot or whether there is actually a jump in that. I I think there is.
But there is so much more that we can do and I think but I also understand that the publishing industry is fac facing a lot of pressures. We've got the the AI issues that are emerging where there's books that are just coming out and and w they're trying to navigate that space. There's also, you know, geopolitical events that are influencing interests in certain f projects. So I know non fiction in Australia is declining. interest in it is declining.
Because people want escapism, people want, you know, things that don't make them think about the real world, that don't make them think critically about, you know, what's happening. So, you know, i it i I understand that there's things around that, but I also under I also think that there is a gap and I think that the traditional publishing industry yeah, it need I think there needs to be a review of it and and they they're processed, they need to rethink how they do things, I suppose.
Amra Pajalic (19:40)
Yeah, well, I mean, there is a lot more pressure. I just read an article in The Guardian about how a lot more books are being published, a lot more editorial control, a lot a lot less marketing. And so even, you know, like we all dream of that traditional publishing deal and how it's going to transform our lives. And then a lot of authors are ending up very disappointed with what's actually happening. And then I don't know, earlier, I think last year
Mirela Cufurovic (19:50)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (20:09)
I read an article about debut authors who were using their advance to pay for a publicist. now I'm an indie author, so I did pay a publicist, but that's fine because that's my business. Everything that I am doing is to promote my business, promote my small press.
Mirela Cufurovic (20:15)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (20:30)
But the thought of my hard-earned and tiny advance then being used for that when in the traditional publishing world, you know, they control everything. They control the covers, the marketing. Like as authors, we have a tiny, tiny input, and even then we are the last on the list to be listened to.
Mirela Cufurovic (20:41)
Yes. Indeed. I think one of the things that always shocks me and it shocked me when I first heard it, so when I interviewed Doctor Sarah Ayub for my tea time session and so she's in she's in the board for the Australian Society of Authors and she basically said that Austr authors in Australia earn a dollar for every book that is sold in the publishing in the traditional publishing space. So can you so you imagine and you know
Prices of books are skyrocketing. They went from fifteen to twenty dollars to thirty five dollars. you're paying thirty-five dollars for a book and an author only gets a dollar from that and the rest goes is dispersed for to the to the publishing to the publishing house. authors in Australia will earn more if you borrow their books. So if you whoever's listening,
if you have not attended your library or haven't been to a library in a long time, please do consider you know, yes, I as you can see I've got a whole bunch of books behind me. I love buying books. I think I love the idea of having them as trophies and and reading them. But I also think on top of that we should be borrowing more and we should be requesting more and supporting public spaces like libraries because if we don't do that then our authors suffer. And I think
A large to add to all of this, I think the l biggest problem we're having is the downplay of the humanities and the social sciences and literature in Australia. We are seeing I mean I know from my experience in academia, we are seeing a whole like restructuring of the humanities disciplines where thousands of people are losing their jobs because, you know, priority is in place of the humanities. We've got skyrocketing what do you call it?
prices for humanities degrees like we're p students are paying up to fifty five thousand dollars just to do a humanities degree. I mean it it's just i it's incredibly sad. so we were dealing with those pressures as well and the I think the emphasis or the lack of emphasis on the value of the humanities is putting pressure also on authors and on the publishing industry. to reevaluate their priorities but also to reevaluate their place in in the Australian creative space. and on top of all that as well, like I mean for the Australian Muslim Review, I am doing this all by myself with absolutely no funding and absolutely no means to be able to pay the reviewers. I wish I could, but right now I can't.
So for me now I have to think about and I'm and I and I will be for the following year. applying for grants and applying for funding. But that whole pro that is going to be a whole process in and of itself and whether I will be successful I don't know. So there is also that competition because because so many literary spaces need funding, there's so many more applying for funding and so little chance of receiving it. So I think there's also that re that that whole structure also needs to be re re rethought. Is that a word? yeah. Yeah, to add to that.
Amra Pajalic (23:48)
Yeah, even the way the publishing industry, you know, they price ebooks in order to push people to buy the paper back. so it's kind of a manipulation in a sense. And the shame of it is,
Mirela Cufurovic (23:52)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (24:02)
We buy everything. Like, you know, when you want to read a book, you know, I I listen to audiobooks, I read ebooks, I read paperbacks, you know, and I there's no I will do this instead of that. I will engage with the author depending on what's going on in my life. there's certain authors now that I always listen to their audiobooks because I've started the audiobook and I'm like, this is how I want to keep consuming.
Mirela Cufurovic (24:28)
Yeah, same I'm the same,
Amra Pajalic (24:30)
Yeah, but you know, like we we love reading and we love connecting with with reading and we've got busy lives and so much going on and so it's it's you know, a shame that there's not enough innovation in how things are thought about. we're trying to sort of apply those really outdated models and and yeah, it's getting harder. And I don't think even the publishing industry is really acknowledging or, you know, seeing
Mirela Cufurovic (24:42)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (24:56)
the indie publishing world and how that is generating. Like I know four authors off the top of my head, Fiona Ta, Philippa Nefrey Clark, CJ Archer and Kerry Arthur, all Australian authors, all earning five to six figures from their writing, who you know the Australian publishing world has kind of never heard of.
Mirela Cufurovic (25:17)
Mm. Yeah, okay. See I I didn't hear I haven't heard of them, so
Amra Pajalic (25:25)
Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, like they are genre fiction writers, but you know, these are the people who are actually making a living from their writing and not doing anything else and who have the funds to, you know, publish their books and an audiobook immediately because they have that readership and they have that ecosystem that they have.
Mirela Cufurovic (25:29)
Yeah. I think the I think you you raise a very important point because I think self publishing for the longest time and not just in Australia, I think globally, as well, has been kind of seen as lesser than traditional publishing without without actually engaging in a conversation about what you can gain from being a self published author versus what you will get gain from being a traditional published author.
Now, yes, traditional publishing, you know, you will Most often you will get the marketing, you will get the the book tours and all of that stuff. But, you know, I actually listened to a podcast recently. It's called The Shit No One Tells You About Writing and I absolutely love it, so I h highly recommend everyone listen to it. It's not Australian based, but I do love it.
I learned so much from it. but I found out that not every author gets to have book tours or get to have the publicity and the marketing behind them. So even if you are traditionally published, you may still need to, you know, fish out money out of your own pockets or, you know, volunteer your time or organize, you know, your book launches and events and et cetera et cetera to publicise your own book. And this is why so many publishing spaces also require authors or writers to have social media.
And I feel like that's a very cheap way of getting their branding across but making the author do all of the work. And I think I know some writers came up to me recently. I I did a workshop on how to pitch to publishers and agents for the Sydney Muslim Writers Festival and a lot of them came up to me and asked how like whether they should have social media and I just said no you don't need social media. I don't think if you can stay away from social media, please do stay away from it. I mean I w I I I don't sound hypocritical, I am on social media but I am trying very hard to get off it or try to redirect elsewhere. because I think, you know, we already do so much.
We already spent four or five years on one project and we pour our love and our heart into it and then to have this expectation to do more to get it out there I think is a little bit unfair. whereas with self publishing, like you said, Amra, you have a little bit more of that control and you get to be out there. And I think if you can get yourself out there in the first place, it or you've already opened yourself doors that you would never have imagined or would never have realized from a traditional publishing perspective. There is a friend, a dear friend of mine,
Farah Elsequet, who has pu self published her middle gray fiction to her the Doha series and I when I first interviewed her, she was my very first per the very first person that I interviewed for my two time sessions. And she said, you know, I did self publishing because, you know, at least I got my foot in the door. I'm an author and I got to meet all these other incredible people, all these other incredible authors, self published and t traditionally published authors in the Muslim space. that I never would have done otherwise. And I thought, you know what, I've never considered that before until she said it. And I'm like, you what, you're right. I think, you know, it's definitely an opportunity to get yourself out there. And it doesn't mean that you're any you're less than someone who's traditionally published. I know so many books that have won awards because of, you know, being indie published. And I think that's just something to be celebrated. And I think it's something to be embarrassed about or shy.
Amra Pajalic (29:11)
No, and the other thing is there are so many more opportunities than we can think of. Like, you know, y you were telling authors not to go on social media and I'm like I had a moment where I'm like, no, no, you should be on social media. And then I thought, no, actually you don't, because there are so many different ways you can sell books. Like there are people, because I started doing direct sales this year and going to events and interacting with readers and selling directly to readers and I made it a mission to sort of go around and talk to different people and find out about that whole process. And I was like, there is a whole ecosystem.
Mirela Cufurovic (29:29)
Exactly. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (29:50)
Of people selling their books who are not relying on that, you know, so there is no one way. And this is a joy now, and even like what you've been doing in your creative endeavors, you are redefining how to build a profile, how to connect, how to create a community. and that's what we need to be thinking about, and not thinking about just sales for the sake of it.
Mirela Cufurovic (29:50)
Yeah. Exactly.
Amra Pajalic (30:16)
Because you know, you don't that doesn't hap like, you know, if you're in the in the right space and the right time, but a lot of it is is sort of building something and connecting.
Mirela Cufurovic (30:25)
Yes. And unfortunately I hate to say this, but a lot of it is luck. A lot of our creative process and our networking opportunities is relies on luck, but it also relies on initiative. So taking the initiative in the first place I think is where the opportunities come and trying something new is where the opportunities come. Like I didn't start
Amra Pajalic (30:30)
Yes.
Mirela Cufurovic (30:48)
the Australian Muslim Review or Tea Time with Mirawa because I wanted to gain something from it. I genuinely just wanted to like have conversations. Like because you know I I know how it feels to not feel not to to feel like you're not part of a space because you don't have the opportunities for them. Like like I said, I w I live in a room place. So all of these opportunities that I constantly see happening in Sydney and I'm like I wish I wish I could. Like if I probably did not have kids and I could just drive and just drive back and not worry about anything, perhaps, like maybe I will be more around those spaces. But unfortunately that is not where I'm at at the moment.
Amra Pajalic (31:29)
thinking about more than just sales or audience or what you're gonna get out of it. but then we also really need to talk about burnout and sustaining creativity because we've got all these creative projects, we've got so many things that we want to do. and so you know, you already spoke about the fact that you're having to put some things on pause while you're focusing on your PhD.
Mirela Cufurovic (31:39)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (31:51)
What are some other things that you can share with people who are wanting to do these sort of things? Start their own creative projects?
Mirela Cufurovic (31:59)
think the biggest thing I can the biggest advice I can give is be true to yourself and to your intentions. because if you come with the intention of let's say, I don't know, making more sales, let's say you're an author trying to sell your book and your intention is just to make more money, I feel like that's already limited because you can't really control that. if you create if you're creating spaces for genuine connection, to celebrate creativity, to grow personally as a writer, then I think you have the opportunity to sustain a project in the long term. Yes, like for example, like I like I said, I don't gain any monetary value or anything from doing what I do. But I love it. Like I see I I love it so much, I am willing to put in the time to do it.
And that is what is necessary and unfortunately it is what is required as a creative. You need to have that passion and that love because the the fruits of it the the fruit fruit of it might not be monetary you know, but there are so many other opportunities that you get. Like meing fantastic people, like you know, connecting with n new audiences. Like getting feedback and saying, my god, I really love that or I really like how you approach this or thank you so much for supporting my writing.
Like I love getting that feedback. When I was I I was yesterday I was editing copy editing reviews that came in for issue two of the Australian Muslim review and you know, I love like engaging in those conversations with writers and being like, Hey like I think we can improve here or l like why don't we work on this? What do you think? And then hearing their feedback and getting them and watching them grow as we're g going through this editing process.
That is more valuable to me than anything like more than anything else. so yeah, my biggest advice is just know what your intentions are and be true to those intentions and be true to yourself. I mean I don't shy away from being myself no matter what platform I'm at. Even when I when I do my teaching, when I teach my students, you get what you see. Like I am myself, I'm not going to mask myself just because I am a teacher teaching you.
you know, y I am it's still a human being, I'm still a person and I want you to feel that connection. I want you to feel comfortable in my space and I want you to feel like you can learn and that you would love learning because I am encouraging you to be yourself and to to learn in the process. So that is my
Amra Pajalic (34:32)
Yeah, I think 'cause sometimes like I I I was just kind of approaching burnout a few weeks ago and when when you're in that space you start sort of going, should I be doing this and should I be doing that? Maybe I should give this up and whenever I have those moments that intention is what is really important. It's like why am I doing this? What am I trying to achieve? what is it that, you know, I'm I'm thinking about and there's so
Mirela Cufurovic (34:50)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (34:59)
Many things that I did, like I did a publication where we got a grant with the council, I did a Muslim leadership group, and then we wrote a book what a Muslim woman looks like to like break the stereotypes. And then my friend Demet and I got a trad publishing deal for growing up Muslim in Australia.
Mirela Cufurovic (35:18)
I love that. That was so good. I loved reading that.
Amra Pajalic (35:21)
Well I know, it's such a great anthology and you know, it's been in schools and it's used in schools and I use it you know, when I'm teaching and I use a lot of the growing up series in units that we teach. They're they're just such a brilliant opportunity for young people to, you know, find their own voice and to see the diversity of Australia. And I remember when I was doing that leadership
Mirela Cufurovic (35:34)
Mm.
Amra Pajalic (35:46)
You know, I had a really my my daughter wasn't even one year old. I was doing it just because I wanted to get out of the house, have some intellectual stimulation. And my husband was like, What's the point of this? Why are you tiring yourself out like this? And I said, I don't know, but I just feel like this is something I need to do. and now I can I can look back and go, Well that led to this and led to this and led to this. But at the time you can't predict that.
Mirela Cufurovic (35:49)
Yeah. No, you can't. And you know, there's there have been lots and lots and lots of moments where I've wanted to give up and I always ask myself, What's the point? And I I do you know, I'll be honest, I do feel like b bit of an imposter because I I don't have a book to my name that I can say as aside from book chapters that I've done academically and I don't have you know, I haven't been awarded my PhD yet to say yes, like I can officially say I am a historian. but at the same time I remind myself the things that I've done to get to this point are still very valid experiences and I I should take ownership of the fact that I know what I'm talking about. for the most part I hope. But you know kind of that, you know, self like I feel like, you know, the self confidence and you know to acknowledge your process and where you've come and what you have had to do to get where you are. And that does not come without persistence and that does not come without passion and that does not come without love for what you want to do and what you want to achieve in your life.
Amra Pajalic (37:16)
Yeah, and you know, you can think things and and always be like I'm not ready. I need to have this thing to be able to do it and I did that a lot too. I used to talk myself out of things and I know this has to fall in place and and I feel like then I would watch other people and I'd be like, Why is that person who does not have, you know, even like tiny bit of all of the things that I have and I have achieved, but they're doing that thing and I'm like, because they tried.
Mirela Cufurovic (37:27)
Yeah. Yes. That's exactly it. Yes, exactly. And you know, sometimes the first time you get to somewhere and sometimes you just try and you just fly and that's amazing and I wish that for everyone. But sometimes you have to get through the hard work in order to finally get your wings and to to soar above everyone else. But for the you know, each process
Amra Pajalic (37:46)
That's it. They put themselves out there.
Mirela Cufurovic (38:11)
has its own merits and its own values and I think it's just about trusting it and trusting yourself.
Amra Pajalic (38:16)
Yeah, that is a beautiful way to end, I think. I'm so glad that we have now taken turns interviewing each other. We've you know, and you've done my book launch and and I I helped with the Muslim Review launch and this is this is the joy of connecting and finding people who are on the same path as you. So thank you so much, Mirala. now where can people engage with you and your work?
Mirela Cufurovic (38:20)
Yes, so you can find me on Instagram even though I'm trying to get away from it, but I don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon. So you can find me on Instagram with my full name Mirala Kofurovic. I'm so used to Anglicising my name. Mira Mirala Kufovic. and you can also find the Australian Muslim Review on Instagram as well as the Australian Muslim Review, so you can just type that in. the other platforms that you can find me on are Substack. So I have a Substack
Amra Pajalic (38:57)
I know, I know.
Mirela Cufurovic (39:11)
Same thing, same handles for everything because I like to just not complicate things for myself. but I manage two substacks, so one of them is the Australian Muslim Review, and the other is a more of a personal substack called Writing History, where I talk about literature and history, my two loves. and if you are a historian or an academic or you're in the academia space, you can also find me on LinkedIn with my full name. So those are the spaces that I'm
Amra Pajalic (39:35)
Wonderful. Well thank you so much, Middle Ar. And you've really given me a bit of a dose of inspiration that I needed as I'm sort of coming out of burnout a little bit. So thank you so much.
Mirela Cufurovic (39:38)
Thank you so much for having me. It was such a pleasure to speak with you, Amra, as always.
Welcome to Amra's Arm Chair's Anecdotes. Today I'm talking to Mirila Chufurovich, another Bosnian, who is a historian, writer, interviewer, and we met because she's founder of Tea Time with Mirala, an Instagram interview series with female authors in Australia. So she did long form discussions with writers, academics, artists, and community voices and built a platform that values nuance, intellectual curiosity, and genuine dialogue. And she is now
Mirela Cufurovic (00:06)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (00:30)
Founder of the Australian Muslim Review on Substack, an independent publication dedicated to amplifying Muslim voices, ideas, literature, history, and cultural commentary. Her work explores storytelling, historical memory, representation, and drawing. You're drawing on your background as a historian, your approach, interviews and writing with a deep interest about how stories are preserved, interpreted, and shared. Thank you so much for joining me.
Mirela Cufurovic (00:59)
it's lovely to be here. I can't wait to dive into a conversation with you.
Amra Pajalic (01:02)
Yeah, I mean we met because you started tea time with Myrala and you invited me to be on. What was what made you start that project?
Mirela Cufurovic (01:12)
Hm. I I've always had an interest of connecting with people and because of my interest in literature and I every time I read a book I fall in love with the author and I'm like, okay, this is like this is a real human being both this and I wanna get to know the human behind the stories and I started to time with Mirawa because I wanted to have those conversations with authors like yourself to better understand your writing process.
And also and yes it was kind of a learning experience for me, so to learn a more about writing and how how writers approach the writing process and how they do storytelling. But I also wanted to create a platform that was available to audiences and that is why I thought, Hey, let me let me try let me try this. It's not perfect. I'm not an expert at doing recording or podcasts, but it I just wanted some genuine connection and genuine interaction.
Amra Pajalic (02:11)
Yeah, and why why did you choose Instagram Instagram as a platform for that?
Mirela Cufurovic (02:16)
So Instagram as a platform I I I think one reason was because I wanted to create a live event and you know, interestingly, every single author I have interviewed had never been had never used Instagram live before for an interview. So I always found that very interesting. Like every time they say, like this is my first time, what do I do? How do I so I I would always have like a ten minutes before the interview, let's do a mic check, let's
see if everything works before the live you know, it goes to the audience. And that was also good because then it helps authors also experience something new, which I hope that they took an experience from it. but also to just draw in an audience that could be engaged in the conversation in real time. And I think as someone who lives in regional New South Wales
A lot of the opportunities for author events and author conversations are down in Sydney, w which is, you know, yeah. and they often occur at night, often on Tuesdays for some reason and it's just for me to travel to attend an hour or a two hour event and come back home, it it it's really it's stifling and it's very I the opportunities the opportunity isn't there.
So I thought, well, let me try and create a platform where I get to have this opportunity but also I get to extend the opportunity for anyone to access this at any time that is convenient for them. So although it is live, I do save the live onto my profile so that you can go back and listen and and add your comments or questions or reach out to the author directly after.
Amra Pajalic (03:55)
Yeah. Point actually. I did one live event where someone organized it and coordinated it, but I do think that's a a missed opportunity. I guess the thing about it though, it is pressure. Like I'm interviewing now, but I'm like I'm doing it online, I can edit afterwards, I can remove anything, and so there is that more of that safety to it. Whereas with the live, there is some pressure, it is quite but there is
Mirela Cufurovic (04:08)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (04:25)
There's also, as you said, that interaction. So what were some things that surprised you about it when you were doing those live events?
Mirela Cufurovic (04:31)
I I suppose for me it was getting the seeing people tune in, and seeing people ask questions and being genuinely really interested in the conversation. that would be one surprise. The other surprise is getting messages afterward and saying how much they love the interview or saying how much they love the questions. Because as you said, the pressure is on and preparing for those interviews was very stressful because I was fixating on the questions that I wanted to ask and the tea time sessions were organic. Like I tried to make them as organic as possible. So I didn't want to have like these predetermined questions and I wanted the author to just speak to their own experiences and drive off that. But also that was very pressure intensive as well because it's like, okay, well it depends on what they say. I have to like be quick and and think on my feed about the questions that I want to say 'cause I I don't have that opportunity to edit and
Whatever whatever is saved, it is saved. Like I can't I can't change that. but I will relate one funny incident that happened when I was interviewing Charlene and Ossop for what was her book called again, f The Great Undoing. And it was in it was daytime, it was in the morning. I usually have my sessions at night where my ki where I don't have to my kids are looked after.
And at this one particular day my daughter was home and I'm and I said to her, do not interrupt me. I have a very important interview. And she did interrupt me and she opened the door and she's like, Mama, I have to go do a poo in the toilet And I just went, Okay, okay, just go and do the poo in the toilet. It's fine, you can wipe yourself. She's like, But I have to really do big poo and I'm like, Okay And then I I did have to cut that interview short because I had to tend to her but
Amra Pajalic (06:02)
Ha ha ha.
Mirela Cufurovic (06:16)
That was yeah, that was one very funny incident and I I I'd I've never f like it's something that I think I'll never forget.
Amra Pajalic (06:22)
Yeah, but having said that, we all did so many online things during COVID and really got into it. And then we've got these beautiful memes and all of these things that were happening in real real time that really was fabulous. I mean we met because you did interview me and then we've sort of you know collaborated on an event where you launched my book in Sydney. and we were hoping, you know, I'm sure we will collaborate.
Mirela Cufurovic (06:26)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (06:49)
More there were some other things that were possibly in the works that I haven't worked out, but you know, we we will. and you've you've got your the new project that you're doing, which we'll talk about in a moment. what other connections have have happened? Like, because you know, sometimes we we have ideas or creative projects we want to do, but then you're like, what's the point of this and what's the point of that? And so what I loved about this is you just threw yourself into it, you tried it, things happen. So you have there been other happy
Mirela Cufurovic (07:13)
Mm.
Amra Pajalic (07:17)
things that have happened from it in terms of your professional development?
Mirela Cufurovic (07:21)
think for me one of the best things that have emerged is just connecting with the authors and developing somewhat I mean in some cases acquaintances but also then in others like friendships like yo yourself included. so I think that has been the biggest highlight for me and it's just so great to be able to be in a space where I get to speak with people that I admire and work like to talk about their work and and to and I think ultimately the biggest reason why I also wanted to do the Tea Time sessions is I wanted to, you know, provide a platform for authors to just talk about their books with w in a low pressure setting and just why not? Like to champion their work 'cause like I'm a fan, so why like why not in like introduce their work to other people that might potentially be interested in the same work?
so I think for me it's the connections with the authors themselves that have been the biggest highlight and you know, to this day there are some that I keep you know, continue to talk to and, you know, just connect and providing opportunities. And I think for like for example, there was one author I also so we we did your book launch together, which was fantastic. and then recently I was invited to try and find authors to attend an international women's day event in Oberon, in in a a rural town in New South Wales and I just went,
Well I've made these connections with these authors, let me see who might be interested and I reached and I interviewed Natalia who wrote the Hailstone's Soul Without Rain and from there we developed a a really cool friendship and I went to her book launch and things like that. And then I invited her to attend this International Women's Day event and she she came. So it was like if I hadn't put myself out there and and, you know, made these connections.
I also wouldn't have opportunities to further amplify their work and further provide platforms for them to, you know, t to have their work exposed to different audiences and to kind of challenge opinions about, you know, who gets to write stories and, you know, things like that. Because in this town it's majority white and, you know, I think the p the the authors that I had booked in for this International Women's Day event were all diverse and I remember one person telling me that this panel might be too diverse. I'm like, well there's no such thing as too much diversity. Like, you know, this is the panel that's going to happen and that's going to occur and I think it's very important to challenge, you know, assumptions or stereotypes or prec you know, whatever it is about what it means to be Australian, I I suppose. And I think that in the end it w it ended up being such a wonderful event. We got some great, great feedback and it challenged a lot of people's perspectives, which I think is also something that I am passionate about.
Amra Pajalic (10:15)
Yeah, and I mean, you know, 'cause we come from backgrounds and and we come from, you know, the Bosnian diaspora and our people were discriminated against because of their religion. and so that is something I like that is something that I also take pride in with my podcast. And so listening to you is actually quite inspirational 'cause it's like I am on the right path. I'm doing my little tiny corner of the internet and I'm having fun and who knows.
Mirela Cufurovic (10:22)
Mm.
Amra Pajalic (10:43)
Who knows where it will lead?
Mirela Cufurovic (10:44)
Mm. Exactly. I think that's the thing. It's who knows what's gonna happen and I think that's the fun part of it. I think that's the fun part of starting projects like this because you go in with an idea but then it can take you into surprising places.
Amra Pajalic (10:59)
Exactly, and and that's what I'm finding I'm really enjoying. And then you put all of your tea time on Substack, which was actually the first time I really interacted with that platform. because you put it all up and then you added me as a collaborator and I went on Substack and I'm like, my gosh, this looks so beautiful. Like you did a gorgeous layout, gorgeous presentation and you know, put it in a new format. did did
Mirela Cufurovic (11:10)
Okay.
Amra Pajalic (11:27)
That also leads to, you know, people are you still continuing that series? What's going on with it now?
Mirela Cufurovic (11:32)
So just to answer the first part of your question, I play put it on Substack because I have continu I have multiple times tried to move away from Instagram but I seem stuck there. But one day it will happen. So the my motivation to put it on Substack was to try and get off any meta platforms for a number of reasons.
I haven't I mean th this is the first feedback I've received from someone who has engaged with the interviews on Substack. I am getting some engagement but not nothing that, you know, someone has just given me feedback about. So I'm not sure how well it's going or how many views it's getting or anything like that. I am behind on updating the twenty twenty five interviews, I do need to put them up. and to answer your second question
I have put the two time sessions on pause mainly because I did start a new project which we will talk about. but also because I am in the final year of my PhD and I am very much behind on my writing so I am trying to focus more on doing things that are directly related to my PhD and also that is going to help strengthen my own writing process.
And also to stop myself from reading books that I shouldn't be reading because I've got a whole bunch of nonfiction books related to my PhD that I desperately need to catch up on. So that is the reason why it's on hold and I haven't had any interviews done for twenty twenty six.
Amra Pajalic (12:57)
Mm, yeah, I mean that's the thing, isn't it? We are very ambitious women with so many things we want to do, but only so much time. right now. So I wanted to move on to talk about you know, your new project on Substack, which is the Australian Muslim Review. so can you tell us about that first?
Mirela Cufurovic (13:01)
Yeah. So this project emerged from it actually was inspired by my re by my research, my PhD research. So my PhD research is looking at Australian Muslim identity and I want to understand how whether there is an i identity integration of Muslims in Australia where they see themselves as Australians and as Muslims at the same time. And to understand this I'm looking at it from an emotional perspective. So how does emotion shape this development?
And because it's because it's related to identity and the idea of what it means to be Australian but also the idea of what it means to be Muslim. I and then with my love for literature and I o I've always I've constantly been feeling like I'm stuck in the middle. Like I want to be a historian, I want to get into history but I also want to be a writer and I love writing and I I I thought, hey, I can bridge these two things together and I'm going to start this Australian Muslim Review. So that's where the inspiration of it came from. The reason why I wanted to do it was because I also realized that there was no platform where you could just go and be like, Hey, where are books written by Muslims in Australia? What are they? And are people talking about it and how are they talking about it?
And so I thought if I can start something like this, number one, it's going to put books written by Muslims in Australia in one place. Number two, it's going to encourage cross cultural dialogue, which is also my aim. So it's not just a space for Muslims to access, it's also a space for all Australians to access. Because I want all Australians to know, whether you're Muslim or non Muslim, that, you know, there is literature written by Muslims and this literature has a very important role in understanding Muslim identity in Australia and that we exist and we have a right to exist as Australians and as Muslims. It's still a learning process but it's sharpening my writing skills and it's also sharpening my critical thinking skills, which is something I definitely need as I move into fin finalising my PhD this year.
Amra Pajalic (15:24)
Yeah, well that's the thing. I really enjoyed the process. I was I wanted to do it and then I like piking where I was like, I don't know if I can do it, and then I did it. and it was really great, you know, seeing you in that editorial role. and and doing that that aspect of it too. And it was also quite inspirational because I just I get such a a buzz from seeing, especially, you know, women, just trying different creative areas and and kind of
Mirela Cufurovic (15:36)
Hm. Okay.
Amra Pajalic (15:51)
you know, coming up with ideas, putting them out there and and just building on it. and so that that was also really great. And, you know, we can never have enough conversations about books, reviews about books, you know, pushing pushing all of that, which is really, really great.
Mirela Cufurovic (16:01)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (16:07)
So, you know, in terms of that, like you're what do you I don't know if you've interacted enough with you know, mainstream publishing spaces, but you're kind of seeing what some of the limitations are and you're wanting to redress that. So can you speak to that a little bit?
Mirela Cufurovic (16:18)
Yeah. So I so aside from the role that I have, doing these two projects, I'm also the book reviews editor for History Australia. And this role is similar to what I'm doing with the Australian Muslim Review, is also i slightly inspired my my like the way that I've platformed the review itself. But I as part of this role I have I have to reach out to publishers for you know, review copies of books and I have to kinda figure out what's what's out there, what are historians writing about and, you know, is there are there other historians who would like to review, you know, their colleagues' work, et cetera, et cetera. And I started just noticing a pattern in the kind of historical topics that are out there and I also realised that there's not a lot being published or written about when it co concerns Muslims, and Muslim history. And
In my own experience so I I did write a non fiction, a creative nonfiction work on a Muslim pioneer from Melbourne whose his name is Shahmi Imam and the book's finalised, it's all ready to go and I've pitched it to so many publishers but to no like success. And the large be the the the feedback overall that I've gotten is that it's not marketable. So for me it's what do you mean it's not marketable?
What what does that mean? and yes, you know, maybe it may seem like it's such a niche topic for a niche audience, but when you really think about it, it's a topic about an Australian. You know, an Australian Muslim who's made Australia his home and who's contributed to the large debate or to the large trajectory of Australian history that is often overlooked. And there's so much that we as Muslims can give and to to to show and and to represent.
of what it means to be Australian that isn't discussed in the mainstream discourse. So I think there is a gap in that regard. I think the Australian publishing industry is doing better than it used to in regarding diversity and and p and publishing diverse voices. I don't know if that's because I am surrounded by diverse verse voices so I see it a lot or whether there is actually a jump in that. I I think there is.
But there is so much more that we can do and I think but I also understand that the publishing industry is fac facing a lot of pressures. We've got the the AI issues that are emerging where there's books that are just coming out and and w they're trying to navigate that space. There's also, you know, geopolitical events that are influencing interests in certain f projects. So I know non fiction in Australia is declining. interest in it is declining.
Because people want escapism, people want, you know, things that don't make them think about the real world, that don't make them think critically about, you know, what's happening. So, you know, i it i I understand that there's things around that, but I also under I also think that there is a gap and I think that the traditional publishing industry yeah, it need I think there needs to be a review of it and and they they're processed, they need to rethink how they do things, I suppose.
Amra Pajalic (19:40)
Yeah, well, I mean, there is a lot more pressure. I just read an article in The Guardian about how a lot more books are being published, a lot more editorial control, a lot a lot less marketing. And so even, you know, like we all dream of that traditional publishing deal and how it's going to transform our lives. And then a lot of authors are ending up very disappointed with what's actually happening. And then I don't know, earlier, I think last year
Mirela Cufurovic (19:50)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (20:09)
I read an article about debut authors who were using their advance to pay for a publicist. now I'm an indie author, so I did pay a publicist, but that's fine because that's my business. Everything that I am doing is to promote my business, promote my small press.
Mirela Cufurovic (20:15)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (20:30)
But the thought of my hard-earned and tiny advance then being used for that when in the traditional publishing world, you know, they control everything. They control the covers, the marketing. Like as authors, we have a tiny, tiny input, and even then we are the last on the list to be listened to.
Mirela Cufurovic (20:41)
Yes. Indeed. I think one of the things that always shocks me and it shocked me when I first heard it, so when I interviewed Doctor Sarah Ayub for my tea time session and so she's in she's in the board for the Australian Society of Authors and she basically said that Austr authors in Australia earn a dollar for every book that is sold in the publishing in the traditional publishing space. So can you so you imagine and you know
Prices of books are skyrocketing. They went from fifteen to twenty dollars to thirty five dollars. you're paying thirty-five dollars for a book and an author only gets a dollar from that and the rest goes is dispersed for to the to the publishing to the publishing house. authors in Australia will earn more if you borrow their books. So if you whoever's listening,
if you have not attended your library or haven't been to a library in a long time, please do consider you know, yes, I as you can see I've got a whole bunch of books behind me. I love buying books. I think I love the idea of having them as trophies and and reading them. But I also think on top of that we should be borrowing more and we should be requesting more and supporting public spaces like libraries because if we don't do that then our authors suffer. And I think
A large to add to all of this, I think the l biggest problem we're having is the downplay of the humanities and the social sciences and literature in Australia. We are seeing I mean I know from my experience in academia, we are seeing a whole like restructuring of the humanities disciplines where thousands of people are losing their jobs because, you know, priority is in place of the humanities. We've got skyrocketing what do you call it?
prices for humanities degrees like we're p students are paying up to fifty five thousand dollars just to do a humanities degree. I mean it it's just i it's incredibly sad. so we were dealing with those pressures as well and the I think the emphasis or the lack of emphasis on the value of the humanities is putting pressure also on authors and on the publishing industry. to reevaluate their priorities but also to reevaluate their place in in the Australian creative space. and on top of all that as well, like I mean for the Australian Muslim Review, I am doing this all by myself with absolutely no funding and absolutely no means to be able to pay the reviewers. I wish I could, but right now I can't.
So for me now I have to think about and I'm and I and I will be for the following year. applying for grants and applying for funding. But that whole pro that is going to be a whole process in and of itself and whether I will be successful I don't know. So there is also that competition because because so many literary spaces need funding, there's so many more applying for funding and so little chance of receiving it. So I think there's also that re that that whole structure also needs to be re re rethought. Is that a word? yeah. Yeah, to add to that.
Amra Pajalic (23:48)
Yeah, even the way the publishing industry, you know, they price ebooks in order to push people to buy the paper back. so it's kind of a manipulation in a sense. And the shame of it is,
Mirela Cufurovic (23:52)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (24:02)
We buy everything. Like, you know, when you want to read a book, you know, I I listen to audiobooks, I read ebooks, I read paperbacks, you know, and I there's no I will do this instead of that. I will engage with the author depending on what's going on in my life. there's certain authors now that I always listen to their audiobooks because I've started the audiobook and I'm like, this is how I want to keep consuming.
Mirela Cufurovic (24:28)
Yeah, same I'm the same,
Amra Pajalic (24:30)
Yeah, but you know, like we we love reading and we love connecting with with reading and we've got busy lives and so much going on and so it's it's you know, a shame that there's not enough innovation in how things are thought about. we're trying to sort of apply those really outdated models and and yeah, it's getting harder. And I don't think even the publishing industry is really acknowledging or, you know, seeing
Mirela Cufurovic (24:42)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (24:56)
the indie publishing world and how that is generating. Like I know four authors off the top of my head, Fiona Ta, Philippa Nefrey Clark, CJ Archer and Kerry Arthur, all Australian authors, all earning five to six figures from their writing, who you know the Australian publishing world has kind of never heard of.
Mirela Cufurovic (25:17)
Mm. Yeah, okay. See I I didn't hear I haven't heard of them, so
Amra Pajalic (25:25)
Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, like they are genre fiction writers, but you know, these are the people who are actually making a living from their writing and not doing anything else and who have the funds to, you know, publish their books and an audiobook immediately because they have that readership and they have that ecosystem that they have.
Mirela Cufurovic (25:29)
Yeah. I think the I think you you raise a very important point because I think self publishing for the longest time and not just in Australia, I think globally, as well, has been kind of seen as lesser than traditional publishing without without actually engaging in a conversation about what you can gain from being a self published author versus what you will get gain from being a traditional published author.
Now, yes, traditional publishing, you know, you will Most often you will get the marketing, you will get the the book tours and all of that stuff. But, you know, I actually listened to a podcast recently. It's called The Shit No One Tells You About Writing and I absolutely love it, so I h highly recommend everyone listen to it. It's not Australian based, but I do love it.
I learned so much from it. but I found out that not every author gets to have book tours or get to have the publicity and the marketing behind them. So even if you are traditionally published, you may still need to, you know, fish out money out of your own pockets or, you know, volunteer your time or organize, you know, your book launches and events and et cetera et cetera to publicise your own book. And this is why so many publishing spaces also require authors or writers to have social media.
And I feel like that's a very cheap way of getting their branding across but making the author do all of the work. And I think I know some writers came up to me recently. I I did a workshop on how to pitch to publishers and agents for the Sydney Muslim Writers Festival and a lot of them came up to me and asked how like whether they should have social media and I just said no you don't need social media. I don't think if you can stay away from social media, please do stay away from it. I mean I w I I I don't sound hypocritical, I am on social media but I am trying very hard to get off it or try to redirect elsewhere. because I think, you know, we already do so much.
We already spent four or five years on one project and we pour our love and our heart into it and then to have this expectation to do more to get it out there I think is a little bit unfair. whereas with self publishing, like you said, Amra, you have a little bit more of that control and you get to be out there. And I think if you can get yourself out there in the first place, it or you've already opened yourself doors that you would never have imagined or would never have realized from a traditional publishing perspective. There is a friend, a dear friend of mine,
Farah Elsequet, who has pu self published her middle gray fiction to her the Doha series and I when I first interviewed her, she was my very first per the very first person that I interviewed for my two time sessions. And she said, you know, I did self publishing because, you know, at least I got my foot in the door. I'm an author and I got to meet all these other incredible people, all these other incredible authors, self published and t traditionally published authors in the Muslim space. that I never would have done otherwise. And I thought, you know what, I've never considered that before until she said it. And I'm like, you what, you're right. I think, you know, it's definitely an opportunity to get yourself out there. And it doesn't mean that you're any you're less than someone who's traditionally published. I know so many books that have won awards because of, you know, being indie published. And I think that's just something to be celebrated. And I think it's something to be embarrassed about or shy.
Amra Pajalic (29:11)
No, and the other thing is there are so many more opportunities than we can think of. Like, you know, y you were telling authors not to go on social media and I'm like I had a moment where I'm like, no, no, you should be on social media. And then I thought, no, actually you don't, because there are so many different ways you can sell books. Like there are people, because I started doing direct sales this year and going to events and interacting with readers and selling directly to readers and I made it a mission to sort of go around and talk to different people and find out about that whole process. And I was like, there is a whole ecosystem.
Mirela Cufurovic (29:29)
Exactly. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (29:50)
Of people selling their books who are not relying on that, you know, so there is no one way. And this is a joy now, and even like what you've been doing in your creative endeavors, you are redefining how to build a profile, how to connect, how to create a community. and that's what we need to be thinking about, and not thinking about just sales for the sake of it.
Mirela Cufurovic (29:50)
Yeah. Exactly.
Amra Pajalic (30:16)
Because you know, you don't that doesn't hap like, you know, if you're in the in the right space and the right time, but a lot of it is is sort of building something and connecting.
Mirela Cufurovic (30:25)
Yes. And unfortunately I hate to say this, but a lot of it is luck. A lot of our creative process and our networking opportunities is relies on luck, but it also relies on initiative. So taking the initiative in the first place I think is where the opportunities come and trying something new is where the opportunities come. Like I didn't start
Amra Pajalic (30:30)
Yes.
Mirela Cufurovic (30:48)
the Australian Muslim Review or Tea Time with Mirawa because I wanted to gain something from it. I genuinely just wanted to like have conversations. Like because you know I I know how it feels to not feel not to to feel like you're not part of a space because you don't have the opportunities for them. Like like I said, I w I live in a room place. So all of these opportunities that I constantly see happening in Sydney and I'm like I wish I wish I could. Like if I probably did not have kids and I could just drive and just drive back and not worry about anything, perhaps, like maybe I will be more around those spaces. But unfortunately that is not where I'm at at the moment.
Amra Pajalic (31:29)
thinking about more than just sales or audience or what you're gonna get out of it. but then we also really need to talk about burnout and sustaining creativity because we've got all these creative projects, we've got so many things that we want to do. and so you know, you already spoke about the fact that you're having to put some things on pause while you're focusing on your PhD.
Mirela Cufurovic (31:39)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (31:51)
What are some other things that you can share with people who are wanting to do these sort of things? Start their own creative projects?
Mirela Cufurovic (31:59)
think the biggest thing I can the biggest advice I can give is be true to yourself and to your intentions. because if you come with the intention of let's say, I don't know, making more sales, let's say you're an author trying to sell your book and your intention is just to make more money, I feel like that's already limited because you can't really control that. if you create if you're creating spaces for genuine connection, to celebrate creativity, to grow personally as a writer, then I think you have the opportunity to sustain a project in the long term. Yes, like for example, like I like I said, I don't gain any monetary value or anything from doing what I do. But I love it. Like I see I I love it so much, I am willing to put in the time to do it.
And that is what is necessary and unfortunately it is what is required as a creative. You need to have that passion and that love because the the fruits of it the the fruit fruit of it might not be monetary you know, but there are so many other opportunities that you get. Like meing fantastic people, like you know, connecting with n new audiences. Like getting feedback and saying, my god, I really love that or I really like how you approach this or thank you so much for supporting my writing.
Like I love getting that feedback. When I was I I was yesterday I was editing copy editing reviews that came in for issue two of the Australian Muslim review and you know, I love like engaging in those conversations with writers and being like, Hey like I think we can improve here or l like why don't we work on this? What do you think? And then hearing their feedback and getting them and watching them grow as we're g going through this editing process.
That is more valuable to me than anything like more than anything else. so yeah, my biggest advice is just know what your intentions are and be true to those intentions and be true to yourself. I mean I don't shy away from being myself no matter what platform I'm at. Even when I when I do my teaching, when I teach my students, you get what you see. Like I am myself, I'm not going to mask myself just because I am a teacher teaching you.
you know, y I am it's still a human being, I'm still a person and I want you to feel that connection. I want you to feel comfortable in my space and I want you to feel like you can learn and that you would love learning because I am encouraging you to be yourself and to to learn in the process. So that is my
Amra Pajalic (34:32)
Yeah, I think 'cause sometimes like I I I was just kind of approaching burnout a few weeks ago and when when you're in that space you start sort of going, should I be doing this and should I be doing that? Maybe I should give this up and whenever I have those moments that intention is what is really important. It's like why am I doing this? What am I trying to achieve? what is it that, you know, I'm I'm thinking about and there's so
Mirela Cufurovic (34:50)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (34:59)
Many things that I did, like I did a publication where we got a grant with the council, I did a Muslim leadership group, and then we wrote a book what a Muslim woman looks like to like break the stereotypes. And then my friend Demet and I got a trad publishing deal for growing up Muslim in Australia.
Mirela Cufurovic (35:18)
I love that. That was so good. I loved reading that.
Amra Pajalic (35:21)
Well I know, it's such a great anthology and you know, it's been in schools and it's used in schools and I use it you know, when I'm teaching and I use a lot of the growing up series in units that we teach. They're they're just such a brilliant opportunity for young people to, you know, find their own voice and to see the diversity of Australia. And I remember when I was doing that leadership
Mirela Cufurovic (35:34)
Mm.
Amra Pajalic (35:46)
You know, I had a really my my daughter wasn't even one year old. I was doing it just because I wanted to get out of the house, have some intellectual stimulation. And my husband was like, What's the point of this? Why are you tiring yourself out like this? And I said, I don't know, but I just feel like this is something I need to do. and now I can I can look back and go, Well that led to this and led to this and led to this. But at the time you can't predict that.
Mirela Cufurovic (35:49)
Yeah. No, you can't. And you know, there's there have been lots and lots and lots of moments where I've wanted to give up and I always ask myself, What's the point? And I I do you know, I'll be honest, I do feel like b bit of an imposter because I I don't have a book to my name that I can say as aside from book chapters that I've done academically and I don't have you know, I haven't been awarded my PhD yet to say yes, like I can officially say I am a historian. but at the same time I remind myself the things that I've done to get to this point are still very valid experiences and I I should take ownership of the fact that I know what I'm talking about. for the most part I hope. But you know kind of that, you know, self like I feel like, you know, the self confidence and you know to acknowledge your process and where you've come and what you have had to do to get where you are. And that does not come without persistence and that does not come without passion and that does not come without love for what you want to do and what you want to achieve in your life.
Amra Pajalic (37:16)
Yeah, and you know, you can think things and and always be like I'm not ready. I need to have this thing to be able to do it and I did that a lot too. I used to talk myself out of things and I know this has to fall in place and and I feel like then I would watch other people and I'd be like, Why is that person who does not have, you know, even like tiny bit of all of the things that I have and I have achieved, but they're doing that thing and I'm like, because they tried.
Mirela Cufurovic (37:27)
Yeah. Yes. That's exactly it. Yes, exactly. And you know, sometimes the first time you get to somewhere and sometimes you just try and you just fly and that's amazing and I wish that for everyone. But sometimes you have to get through the hard work in order to finally get your wings and to to soar above everyone else. But for the you know, each process
Amra Pajalic (37:46)
That's it. They put themselves out there.
Mirela Cufurovic (38:11)
has its own merits and its own values and I think it's just about trusting it and trusting yourself.
Amra Pajalic (38:16)
Yeah, that is a beautiful way to end, I think. I'm so glad that we have now taken turns interviewing each other. We've you know, and you've done my book launch and and I I helped with the Muslim Review launch and this is this is the joy of connecting and finding people who are on the same path as you. So thank you so much, Mirala. now where can people engage with you and your work?
Mirela Cufurovic (38:20)
Yes, so you can find me on Instagram even though I'm trying to get away from it, but I don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon. So you can find me on Instagram with my full name Mirala Kofurovic. I'm so used to Anglicising my name. Mira Mirala Kufovic. and you can also find the Australian Muslim Review on Instagram as well as the Australian Muslim Review, so you can just type that in. the other platforms that you can find me on are Substack. So I have a Substack
Amra Pajalic (38:57)
I know, I know.
Mirela Cufurovic (39:11)
Same thing, same handles for everything because I like to just not complicate things for myself. but I manage two substacks, so one of them is the Australian Muslim Review, and the other is a more of a personal substack called Writing History, where I talk about literature and history, my two loves. and if you are a historian or an academic or you're in the academia space, you can also find me on LinkedIn with my full name. So those are the spaces that I'm
Amra Pajalic (39:35)
Wonderful. Well thank you so much, Middle Ar. And you've really given me a bit of a dose of inspiration that I needed as I'm sort of coming out of burnout a little bit. So thank you so much.
Mirela Cufurovic (39:38)
Thank you so much for having me. It was such a pleasure to speak with you, Amra, as always.