27-Why most writers aren’t ready to publish (according to a publisher), interviewing Les Zig

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Show notes

The conversation with Les Zig covers the journey of a writer, editor, and publisher, highlighting the misconceptions about publishing readiness, the realities of the publishing world, and the habits that help writers finish books. It also delves into the importance of characterization in storytelling and the ethical approach to publishing. The conversation covers the challenges and pitfalls of the publishing industry, the rise of self-publishing, the impact of AI on publishing, and the empowerment of indie authors. It also delves into the importance of understanding the industry and the potential for global reach in the digital age.

Takeaways

Publishing readiness requires objectivity and a commitment to quality.
Consistency and discipline are essential habits for writers to finish books.
Characterization is a key element in storytelling, providing readers with relatable and compelling experiences.
Ethical publishing involves writers retaining 100% of their rights and royalties, with a focus on supporting authors in the publishing process. Self-publishing empowers authors to control their journey and reach a global audience.
The impact of AI on publishing is significant, offering new opportunities and challenges for authors and the industry.

Chapters

00:00 Structural Editing and Ethical Publishing
37:02 Challenges in the Publishing Industry
46:25 The Rise of Self-Publishing
59:09 Understanding the Industry and Global Reach
01:09:06 Empowerment of Indie Authors

Connect with Kellie Nielsen

Les Zig is an Australian novelist, editor, and publishing mentor who has over a decade helping writers turn manuscripts into books.
Les is the author of several novels including Just Another Week in Suburbia, August Falling, and the young adult novel Pride. His work explores the complexities of everyday life, relationships, and the quiet dramas that unfold in ordinary communities.
Alongside his own writing career, Les is a key member of the team at Busybird Publishing, an independent Melbourne publishing house dedicated to supporting emerging writers. Through Busybird he has worked as a structural editor, mentor, and publishing guide, helping hundreds of authors develop their stories and navigate the path to publication.
What makes Les particularly interesting is that he’s seen writing from both sides of the desk: as a novelist wrestling with drafts and rejection, and as a publisher evaluating manuscripts and helping writers shape their work into publishable books.

Instagram: www.instagram.com/leszig/
Website: https://www.leszig.com/www.leszig.com/

Transcript of episode

Amra (00:38)
today I'm joined by Les Zig. He's an Australian novelist, editor and publishing mentor who has over a decade helping writers turn manuscripts into books. He's the author of several novels including Just Another Week in Suburbia, August Falling and the young adult novel Pride. His work explores the complexities of everyday life, relationships and the quiet dramas that unfold in ordinary communities. Alongside his own writing career,

Les is a key member of the team at Busy Bird Publishing, an independent Melbourne publishing house dedicated to supporting emerging writers. Through Busy Bird, he has worked as a structural editor, a mentor, a publishing guide. He's helped hundreds of authors develop their stories and navigate their publication path. But what I love most about Les, he's been on both sides of the desk as a novelist, wrestling with drafts and rejection, and as a publisher.

evaluating manuscripts and helping writers. So today we're sort of going to talk about all of these lessons as a writer, editor, publisher, and what separates manuscripts to succeed, the realities of the publishing world, and what writers need to know to build a sustainable writing life. Thank you so much, Les, for coming on my podcast.

Les Zig (01:56)
Thanks

for having me.

Amra (01:57)
So I just thought I would start as we all want to start about our long road to ⁓ publication and becoming a writer. So you wrote for years, you revised your manuscripts repeatedly and you faced plenty of rejection. You published novels but I wanted to talk about what do you think is the biggest misconception?

about being ready to publish based on your experience first as a writer and then maybe talking about it from the other side as a publisher.

Les Zig (02:28)
As a writer, one of the things and I...

I think there's a rite of passage that most writers go through. know, as get older and more experienced, you start to see the naivety and the arrogance of youth. ⁓ You know, like when I was young, it was like, ⁓ how good am I? ⁓ Which I think most writers go through when they're young and know nothing. So there's this feeling, I think a lot of people understand that the eagerness to try and get their work out there. But I think sometimes that comes at the cost of putting the amount of work and revision they need to into their manuscript and they're sending

stuff out that it's just it's too early it's too early a stage and most for the most part you'll only get one shot at this so like you mean you can't go to a publisher and say hey I've revised it can I resend it to you they're generally not going to be interested it's a case of

You've to get it as good as you could possibly get it. And the way with traditional publishing is now with the turnaround in times from acceptance to publication, they're not really set up anymore to really invest time and energy of years in helping you develop your manuscript. They really want to find stuff that's almost there and they can take it the rest of the way.

Amra (03:33)
Yeah, that's the thing. You really need to put in a lot more, you know, work yourself. I remember for my debut novel, I had my editor at Text really working closely with me and putting in the time to edit and to revise and to support me. And I don't see that happening so much anymore. There has been a lot of pressure on the publishing industry in terms of, you know, load and...

Les Zig (03:43)
Yeah.

Amra (03:56)
really needing to put all that work in beforehand.

Les Zig (03:58)
Yeah,

have a friend who was published, I don't know the publisher. I mean, it's not a bad thing, but from the acceptance to publication, it was just nine months. So that was just an insanely quick turnaround. You know, you go back decades and I might spend years with an author and just obviously it's a byproduct of where we are as a people, but things tend to get faster and quicker. You know, you look at sports like cricket where they've created short form versions of it because people can't be bothered watching the five day version.

Amra (04:08)
No.

Les Zig (04:28)
You know you look at television shows and I grew up television shows went for 22 26 episodes a year now They're like six to ten episodes everything tends to be faster. So Just sort of in terms of writing like always I suggest the writers just be entirely sure. This is the version you know put out into the world I appreciate the enthusiasm the excitement you have to order and that's great attitudes to have but don't let it cost you Don't let it cost you quality don't think that and

Amra (04:35)
Yeah.

Les Zig (04:58)
I think again, it's an inexperience of naivety where you think my stuff's so great, but I'll look past a few errors and just be captivated by my magnificence. it's like, they probably won't. And the thing you have to understand is these people are reading lots of manuscripts. So, you know, I recall when I used to work for an anthologies for Busy Bird, you you spend eight hours reading and by, you know, the sixth, seventh hour, you're just exhausted. And there might be like great ideas in there, but it's,

It's a case of if you think that's all you need, don't worry about the spelling, the grammar and that sort of stuff. Trust me, five, six, seven, eight hours in, you're just looking at the stuff and going, no. And the reality is like a lot of publishers do look at stuff like that. It's like one of the reasons I can dismiss something really quickly. So, you know, put your best foot forward.

Amra (05:45)
And for you as a writer, because you were writing for a long time, facing that yourself in terms of rejection and fighting for your publication journey, I mean, there's that element of being a writer, we have to be deluded and think that what we're writing is the best thing that's ever been written. That's the only way we'll get through it. But then you need to have that reality. So is that something that you also went through?

Les Zig (05:59)
Yeah.

I get totally. And it's all part of like sort of an emotional spiritual journey that I think a lot of writers have. It's like, why are you writing? And

Initially you attach those material things like the publication, the success, the, you know, hopefully the praise and all that sort of stuff. And when you do that, you just set yourself up for a lot of frustration because those things might never come. You might be published in your book just disappears quietly and a lot of books do, you know, that's the reality of the publishing industry. So many books out there. The preconception a lot of people have that once you published, you have the journey of Stephen King or J.K. Rowling, one of these like bestselling authors, they're the exception.

Most people sell moderately or undersell. So when you attach significance to those things, you have no control over like acceptance and praise and all that sort of stuff.

I'm telling these stories because I have a love of telling stories and if I'm getting the gratification out of doing that then I can never really disappoint myself because I'm doing what I love. So the other stuff, we don't love best sellers and all that sort of stuff and for anyone listening to this I hope you do have a best seller but...

If that's where your happiness lies, there's a very good chance you may never feel happy. So you have to find happiness within yourself and attach that to the things you can control.

Amra (07:23)
Yeah, that's something that I've also really learnt through my journey where I was writing for publication and writing what I thought would sell and being left bitter when things didn't turn out the way I expected. And now I'm at the other end of it where I'm like writing what I really love, what I enjoy, what I think is important. And the publication is fun and joyous and hopefully things will happen, but I'm trying not to attach.

Les Zig (07:32)
Yeah.

Amra (07:50)
My energy to that.

Les Zig (07:51)
Yeah, I mean, the really beautiful thing about books is they are forever. You know, we still read Tolkien. What are the rings that written what? 67 years ago. Dickens, Jane Austen, Bronte's sisters, Shakespeare. You know, we're still reading these books that are hundreds of years old. So books do live forever unless you attach it to something very specific and topical books to live forever. And in a way like you can pick up Jules Verne's gender descent of the earth and read that. And it's this fantastical adventure about them trying to get to the center of the earth.

Amra (07:57)
Yes.

Les Zig (08:19)
Nowadays the sciences of what we understand they're like, oh, that's totally not possible. Um, but in a book we accept it's a snapshot into time and we're reading something that was written in a different area and about a different period. And we can just totally immerse ourselves in that if, it's done well. I totally get it. feel it myself.

and when you put something out there, you want it to rocket up the charts and all that sort of stuff. But if it doesn't, doesn't mean that that book's a failure. It still has a life beyond immediacy. And the book I always point to is John Williams Stoner. And it sold a couple of thousand copies and then just disappeared. And in the early 2000s, a publisher picked it up to release as part of their classic novels line. And then in the 2000s,

and

started to get some traction and people like Amy Kuhl and re endorsing it and by 2010, 2011, they become a bestseller. So that's like 50, 60 years after it was initially released. Now, obviously we don't want wait 50, 60 years. I John Williams had actually passed away about 16 years earlier, but it just does show that books, you know, they can, they can have a longevity that probably not a lot of other mediums can or artistic mediums. So, and you can really just appreciate a story for whatever it's doing. I read it.

Amra (09:10)
Yeah.

Les Zig (09:30)
now or 40 years ago. I read Catcher in the Rye when I was in year 9 and that's like about 40 years ago and I loved it and I can still read it now and appreciate it at different levels too. So books have so multifaceted in what they can do.

Amra (09:43)
And the other thing is also the longevity of a career like you and I have been at this for a while and we've had a lot of detours and you know turns and turnabouts but it really is just about showing up and continuing and you know I think we both feel the same way where we have to write despite ourselves it's an actual need for us just like breathing is and so it does fulfill us in a different way.

Les Zig (09:52)
Yeah.

Amra (10:09)
⁓

Les Zig (10:09)
I know I just I mean that's totally it you know it's something that it is a need you write because you cannot not write and I think a lot of people sort of go into it with different attitudes but when you strip away or when you strip it all back that's what it really comes down to you have a story you want to tell

Amra (10:25)
Yeah, and it's that need for self-expression and for connection. But honestly, like, I just, just love the process of writing. I love the process of publication, but honestly, the writing is really where my joy is. The publication is still like, oh, that's nice.

Les Zig (10:39)
Yeah, I mean, it's beautiful when you're writing something in the end. I mean, I'm not sure sort of about your process when you plan it all out in advance and not, but like with myself, I plan certain things out, but.

When you're writing and you start seeing linkages and it's like, that connects to that. didn't even see that coming, but it's working out really well. And it's really awesome feeling of discovery. you know, it's almost like you're a conduit for some other being telling you a story, which you've been filtering onto the page. But, I really love that. As you said, take shape. And as you say, it started to work. It's just this, it's such a fulfilling feeling.

Amra (11:04)
Yes.

Yeah, and I still am a discovery writer, but I'm finding that I need to plot more because I'm like, I'm getting on in the years. I can't spend years working on one book anymore and writing 120,000 find a 70,000 word story. So I'm getting a little bit more honed in with that side of it. ⁓

Les Zig (11:30)
Yeah.

But that's also writing. mean, you constantly

I saying, but that's part of your process. You

Amra (11:36)
Yes, exactly.

And each book is different, isn't it? You can't really say, I've figured it out. The next book goes, nah, you haven't.

Les Zig (11:39)
Yeah.

No, I mean, there's one I've been revising, which I wrote initially 11 years ago. And it's only probably in the last year I started addressing what I thought were the big plot issues 10 years ago. But in between, when I originally wrote it and I've revised it multiple times to now, it took me like eight, nine years to really work it out. Why it wasn't functioning for the while I wanted it to function initially. And sometimes it just comes in maturity and experiences. Sometimes it just comes from distance.

You know, you take some time away from something, you look at it, you get fresh perspective. And it's like, OK, I see the problems now and I can attack them from a different perspective.

Amra (12:09)
Yes.

I find distance really helps. find now that I have to draft and write and then leave it for a few months and then come back to it fresh for that editing part of it because I really need that distance, kind of be able to see it bit more clearly.

Les Zig (12:30)
What?

Amra (12:30)
So just wanted to talk about how you emphasize that writing the book is only part of the journey. And you talk about the 1 % rules. So about making small, consistent progress.

Les Zig (12:43)
Yeah.

Amra (12:43)
So what do you think are some habits that actually help writers finish books?

Les Zig (12:49)
You have to find consistency in your writing so that you're productive.

And the way you can tell your productive is if you sit down and can pick up from where you left off as opposed to, you know, you sit down. It's like, don't really know what I wrote last. I've got to reread the last chapter. I don't recall where I was going. Writing really is about momentum. The more you do it, the easier you find to get back into it. And you'll find that between your writing sessions, you actually think into the story. So you could be washing dishes, taking a walk, whatever the case is. And it's still ticking over in your mind.

And it works equally the other way when you're not writing you're not really thinking about the story and then you it's really hard to get back into And one of the things I say if a lot of inexperienced writers is they feel they need big chunks of time to write otherwise It's not worthwhile. So like I've always said, you know, if you just write 15 minutes a day, that's probably about 200 words in a week That's 1,400 words in the year. That's gonna be about 70,000 words It does add up. So don't look down on any block of time. No matter how small it is just sort of keep your

Amra (13:31)
Mmm.

Les Zig (13:51)
hand in there a little bit at the very least and then just also you have to learn to sacrifice things you know it's writing this really weird this is really weird space because it's a hobby until it's not but

It's we all write as a hobby initially and hoping we can make a living out of it. But until we're making a living, it's still a hobby, even though we're spending almost living like hours into it. So, but that just means that sometimes, you know, because you're doing it in between work or whatever the case is that you just need to sacrifice things. You know, it's like, well, maybe I don't go for a coffee with friends on this day because I want to spend some time writing or maybe I don't sit back and watch the voice or whatever I'm going to watch because I just need to spend that time writing.

one of the questions I ask is like

If you had a cold or if you had argument with your partner or, know, you just woke up and you were tired, would you not go to work that day? And the reality is, no, of course you'd go to work. You'd it. And writing is the same thing. So why don't you retreat writing the same time, the same way? And I mean, one of the biggest things I've seen a lot of writers, including myself, is procrastination. Sometimes when you sit there and it's just like hard finding your way into the story and through the story. So it's like, you'll go read Wikipedia.

your article or go watch a video on YouTube. And that leads to four videos I watch on YouTube or whatever the case. So it's just compelling yourself to take your work seriously as a practice. putting aside time to do it, to do it consistently, it doesn't have to be every day if that's not your thing. My friend Blaze should write every weekday, but on the weekends should give herself the weekends off. But it's just gotta be something that when you sit down, you feel ready to just get straight back into it and then just, you

just keep pushing forward. The other thing too with riding is I've known and experienced riders who

They ditch what they're writing because it starts to feel like hard work or they get bored of their story or it's frustrating. And it's like, you know what? That's what's going to happen. You're writing an 80,000 word novel. You are not going to love it every word. There are going to be days you sit there and just loathe it. are going to be days you're thinking, why am I wasting my time? There are going to be days you think, I should just delete this. I should just be done with it. And you just have to teach yourself to just work your way through that. like I compared a

lot of relationships. know, if you have a long-term relationship, there's times your partner frustrates you and annoys you and does all that sort of stuff. But if the relationship's right, you always come back to the love of it. And it's same thing as writing. You are gonna get those moments that aren't as positive, but just keep pushing through, because you'll find your way back to it if your relationship to your story is right.

Amra (16:20)
I agree with so many things that you're saying, because this is a conversation that always comes up with emerging writers, oh, I have this commitment, I have that commitment, I have all these things going on. And it's like, we all do. And you have to really sacrifice and dedicate time. When I was doing my PhD and had a five year old. And I was working full time as a teacher, I had to wake up at 530 in the

in order to write. There was no ifs or buts about it. That was the time that I could do it. And so that's when I did it. And now I'm in the position where I'm working part-time. I've got one day that is like my writing day. But having said that, when I'm working on that first draft, that momentum really needs to be there. I am working on it every day, even if it's a five minute snatch of time, just moving it along until I get that draft down.

And then I move into that revision phase, which isn't as frantic. So yeah, it really is just persistence. And you don't need a whole day. You can do so much in 15, 20 minutes, do a sprint.

Les Zig (17:16)
No, I mean, I hate you.

Yeah, I mean, I used to do that when I was younger, you know, right? Whole day. I mean, the thing I also do now is I generally leave it at a high point where I know what's happening next. It's not a case of like you say, right? Sometimes they'll just ride and ride and ride until they're exhausted and spent. And next day they go back to it's like, don't know what happens next. And so like from this myself, I leave it sometimes a lot of times it just at a high point because then I look forward to going back to it and continuing from that point. And that stimulates me to think about it a lot more. So it just sort of little habits like that to just keep you kicking

over, you know, anything that you do, know, like exercise is another really good example. If you're not a chronic exercise, there'll be times you'll, you'll be really enthusiastic for the first couple of weeks and then you'll start dropping off and all that. So a of times you have to find a way to self motivate and just coach yourself through it because you will have a lot of where you just go, I don't think I can write today. I'm tired. I'm sick. I'm distracted. whatever the case, ⁓ and just sort of being able to talk to yourself and coach yourself through that.

Amra (18:16)
I woke up this morning, went downstairs, my husband and daughter you okay? You look sick, you sound sick, you look terrible. I'm like, yep, I feel terrible, but I'm going to yoga. And they're are you sure maybe you should rest? no, I made a commitment to myself. I know that the person walking out of yoga will be happier than the one walking in. to get to be her. Yeah, that's the know that you're not going to enjoy it.

Les Zig (18:36)
it's hard to get that,

And then, after you do it, I'm glad I did that.

Amra (18:40)
My supervisor for my PhD when I was whinging about my PhD I was struggling. And she's like, well, if it was easy, everyone would be doing it, but you're in the 1 % of the population. And I'm like, okay, perspective. That's it. I need

Les Zig (18:53)
it's a funny thing too, because like when I talk to interns at work and interns are often in just in their 20s. When I grew up wanting to write in the 80s, the only avenue to do that was to go out and buy a typewriter because computers weren't the thing like you had home computers, which are gaming computers. You didn't really have work computers. So like my first book I wrote on the really old typewriter and then my brother bought a PC in about 1990 around there and they were just starting to come into

Like the home is you know, like everyone was having once in the 90s everyone started getting a computer of some sort and those computers had word processing software and Then in the early 2000s and you had like a lot of blogging and stuff starting to come in So I just want to say sort of originally when you want to write there weren't a lot of avenues to do it unless you made a commitment to Find a way to do it now there's everyone does have a computer and it's like a case of a lot of people who probably never would have considered that previously Think I've got a computer I can write something

And I can publish directly to Amazon through that. And now you're getting AI coming in, which is going to escalate that to another level because you'll get a lot of people who just say, I'll just get AI to do it for me or I'll get AI to connect the dots or whatever the case. So, I mean, totally agree with your lecturer that I think also that there is no, that now we're going to see a lot more material because of things like AI and that just as we saw a lot more people writing when computers came in and stuff like that, it becomes a much more accessible media.

Now the thing is you know how good is you first start writing I know I've looked at some of my old stuff and just what it's really really bad but that's also part of the journey it's part of the

Amra (20:31)
it is so important to have that perspective and be like anything that you do, any single skill that you do.

When you're first doing it and you're not good at it, you don't feel great frustrated and you feel angry, but you have to keep showing up and persisting. And the thing about, you know, arts is that there is so much joy when you do it you know, those endorphins and those feel good. And you've just got to focus on that and focus on that journey, I think, and the joy.

Les Zig (20:58)
Well, I mean, I always give the perspective interns an analogy that.

You if I, when they got a tennis lesson from Roger Federer, I'm not going to become Roger Federer because that's years of practice and training and all that sort of stuff. So if writing to it's when you're starting out, even to this day, you know, I've been writing for like so four years, you're constantly learning. And sometimes the best way of learning doing the wrong thing, by messing up and by seeing why it doesn't work. You know, you look at your stuff like, I mean, there's certain phrases we all overuse. We've all got those pet words that we

love. You know, when you're writing 80, 90, a hundred thousand words, you're not mindful of every single word until you start seeing in revision. You're going to, I'm repeating that a lot, but there's a lot of things that you are really learning because you have the missteps that you take rather than doing it the right way. So it's, it's a really beautiful, but frustrating journey. And you have to accept there's going to be a lot of missteps along the way for most of us.

Amra (21:51)
Mmm.

Yeah. And be kind to yourself in the beginning, just to focus on actually doing it as opposed to judging yourself as you're doing it.

Les Zig (22:00)
Yeah.

Amra (22:00)
you're known for specializing in structural editing and helping writers strengthen their manuscripts. What are some common structural problems you see and do you see writers resisting cutting scenes or like how do you approach that?

Les Zig (22:15)
Yeah, I find the more inexperienced writers the ones who really love their work to the point that if you highlight something, they their natural response is you don't get it or, you know,

You get these, I tell a story of a writer friend who's, know, when he was 40, was very, very, very accomplished mentor, won awards and stuff like that. And he's talking about going to a library workshop one day and he handed his work and he was petrified. And he said, this 20 year old kid walked in and he was just really cocky. If we done his workshop, workshop didn't care. And he goes, don't get it. Why is he so cocky and I'm so much more experienced and I'm really petrified. And like, I really thought about it for some days and then it to me that when you do have a

of experience, you then understand all the stuff that could possibly be wrong with what you've written. And you also understand that there's probably stuff you haven't even considered that could be wrong. It's like that saying, you know what you know. when you initially write, when you start writing, you have this almost infallible belief in what you've written as being brilliant, which I went through. know, like I said, a lot of writers would go through this stuff and they don't really have that objectivity they need. Yeah. And I, I,

Amra (23:23)
Yes, we've all gone through it.

Les Zig (23:26)
say like, you know, it might not be fair to everyone, but it's like I say, go over your work until you take the romanticism out of it. Because there is actually a science to how you've put line sentences together, ideas on the page and all that sort of stuff. And you really need to kill that romanticism so you can look at it and go, I really love that it I've written, but it's not serving the story. So it's, I've to cut it out. You know, I always sort of say the writing serves one of the three masters, which is the world building, the plotting,

or the characterizations and if it's not doing any of those that doesn't belong there. So with a lot of writers the things you see are like there's overriding a lot of the times where they want to make sure that you get an idea or get some premise that you're trying to put across so they really overly explain it they don't withhold any of the information so there's not as much intrigue. A lot of inexperienced writers also love the big

money scenes in their story, but not necessarily the journey to get there. So one example I always use is let's say you're gonna write a scene where someone comes home to tell their partner they've been cheating on them and they're gonna leave them for the other person. And people go, that's a really juicy scene I could write. But I think, okay, show me the scene when they just arrive home and they're sitting in the car and that moment before they go into the house to make this announcement. And that's really interesting psychology to me is what's going through this person's head. So a lot of people love that big juicy scene, but not necessarily

So they don't do it. justice that it deserves. Sometimes it's like, know, you get the chronology is really not quite there where they jump around a bit. mean, writing takes a lot of discipline to stay in that moment. And obviously we're to have brief digressions into backstory, exposition and stuff. But we have to do it in the way that we're keeping readers engaged. Now, sometimes I've seen people write pages of exposition because they feel the reader can't go on unless they have all this information.

But I need to arm them with so, you you read this exposition by the time you finish this, like, don't recall where we left the scene because I've just read pages of backstory about whatever the case is. So it's sort of like a real balancing act of keeping the pacing going, keeping the readers engaged, maintaining some intrigue as the narrative unfolds. And then sometimes it's just the case of particularly with a lot of.

inexperienced stuff where they're not quite starting the story in the right place. Like I read it and I think, and I think we did this first chapter. We could have probably started in the second chapter. It would have worked a lot better. But again, they were doing so much world building in terms of making sure the reader got where, you know, they're coming from, that they felt they needed to waffle along with all this exposition. And it's like some, like I said, it sometimes just maintains some intrigue and see that stuffing organically, you know, don't just put it in there because you need the reader to notice the fine ways to see it in organic.

rather than artificially because you can always tell when the story starts talking at you rather than engaging you in like a dialogue and when it talks at you really begin to disengage

Amra (26:15)
I just wanted to go back to how you were talking about the money shot and how people want to write the money shot. was reading an article on Substack about interiority of missing, about how sort of Netflix and the action movies that we're watching and the second screen thing is removing a lot of that story building of that characterization and

as a result, it's kind of impacting on fiction a little bit too. And it made me a little bit sad because what we love the most as readers is the characterization and like really living the carelessly through the character and knowing what they're feeling and seeing what they're feeling and having the different experience to what we would have. So yeah, it sort of made me.

reflect on myself as a writer and I'm like well that's something that I really do and I'm really interested in and something that every book because I'm working on a series now I'm kind of like focusing on and so it's interesting that you're kind of confirming that through your experiences on the other

Les Zig (27:16)
Netflix recently does an article how they did instruct the content makers to simplify plots because they had to accommodate audiences who were constantly on their phones. So you really they're just saying they're dumbing it down. And I've also said movies for the most part tend to speak to the dumbest person in the audience while we explain things. They'll make sure you get the point and all that because they don't want the audience members going, I don't get what that was about. But whereas books have always said speak to the smartest person in the audience and they elevate you.

If you are not quite getting it, will go have a discussion about whatever plot point or you will go look up a word that you didn't understand the word of the case is.

I think, I mean, I just think contemporary filmmaking, particularly Hollywood filmmaking, as opposed to stuff that's coming from like Europe or Asia, because a lot of stuff they do is great. Still, they're not really adhering to formulas in the same way. A lot of Hollywood filmmaking, particularly because we're now dominated by franchises and superhero characters and all that sort of stuff. They really sort of it becomes very one dimensional for the most part. You don't get those really great journeys of the characters. So you a simplifying story.

and keeping them grounded on the really physical level rather than really getting behind the psychology of the character. You look at some things like mean Christopher Nolan probably did it when he did the Batman's he did his Batman trilogy but particularly the first two movies he really explored the character's psyche which was really you know it was interesting and I think when you explore the way a character's mind works with their motivation or why they are who they are it really opens up questions about not just them but yourself because you start to measure yourself up by

that standard you start to explore your own life by that standard and as you said we live vicariously through characters we always

try to find some sort of relatability in any character who we read and that's whether it's a good character or a bad character because we all have our dark thoughts at times and stuff like that so you might see a character that's an anti-hero that you see parts of yourself in there and that's like a big part of what I think makes reading so compelling is that you're getting inside the head of characters you're getting inside their thought process and seeing them and understanding why they're making the decisions they're making and as people we always you know

We're sort of questioning who are we? Why do we do what we do? So it's a constant search. And I think books do that regardless of what sort of genre it is, whether it's a literary fiction or whether it's a more action oriented story. We've constantly sort of talking or exploring characters to see why they are who they are.

I didn't mean something like, and I'm not dismissing this because I really enjoy it, Harry Potter is very much, even though it's a good versus evil story, you do really sort of get inside the heads of Harry and the other characters and understand the burdens that they're dealing with and how they're facing the pressure of combating great evil and becoming still who they are. And that's sort of stuff that we do every day, not combating great evil, but just facing who we are and trying to get to somewhere better and dealing with adversity.

Amra (30:03)
Yes, I am battling my good and evil nature every day.

I wanted to talk about, some lessons from running a publishing house. Busy Bird Publishing is one of the ethical publishing companies. know, one of the two that I know in Australia, the other one is in Sydney. And because you

Les Zig (30:14)
Yep.

Amra (30:21)
⁓ support writers to publish. They pay you for their service but they own the is their book but they are getting the benefit of a publishing house and all of the things that you need to publish a book in terms of the cover, the formatting, the editing, know, etc. I just, so I just really wanted to, you know, highlight that because it is a very admirable

model.

Les Zig (30:46)
Yeah, mean Blaze, Van Hecke who founded Busy Bird.

You know, she used to explain if you're paying just a dollar for publishing, then you're self publishing and you should retain 100 % of your rights and royalties, which is what we do. Now, there might be some legitimate reasons that they take a commission. So for example, if a self publisher had a shop front and they were selling your book for it, then understandably they would take a commission from the sale because it's going through their shop front. But generally the writer should retain 100 % of both rights and royalties. And there's too many examples of self published

or partnership publishers who take a cut of royalties, they might have been claimed they're investing in the book's production with the offer, but I doubt that actually happens at all. So they're actually getting a cut of something just in case it takes off and they have the rights to it in case, you know, it gets picked up for a movie or whatever the case. So one of the things that really surprised me when I came into the industry, totally oblivious many years ago was how unscrupulous some of the industry is in the self-publishing space.

You're dealing with a lot of inexperienced writers. So get writers who are going to tertiary education. So they're actually learning more about writing and stuff like that. I've been surprised that because we get a lot of prospective interns, how little they're taught about publishing in these schools. So they aren't really made a difference in self publishing and traditional publishing. And a lot of these unscrupulous people will pose as traditional publishers or they'll say they've got an innovative new model, which is like you chip in and we pay.

Amra (32:04)
Yes.

Les Zig (32:14)
And that way you get more royalties than the typical seven to 10 % you'd get from a traditional publisher And actually North is gonna think of 50 % instead of 10 % Yeah, that sounds really cool and I'll be told things that they can't be guaranteed like well, this is a great book It's gonna be the best soul you need to get on the market the market needs a book like this You've got to get it out there and again inexperienced author All us offers have ego. We love our egos to be stroke that we've written something and it's worthwhile So all this is happening in the background and then you think okay

I'll

pay my seven eight thousand dollars to get published. Oh and they're told you'll make the money back on sales and all and these are things that cannot be guaranteed. You know I always sort of say with publishing that the really one of the hardest things in any of the arts and especially with books is you can write beautifully and you can write a beautiful story that doesn't guarantee it's going to sell. There's plenty of great books that haven't sold a lot and there's plenty of average books that have and the reason for that is you have no control over what happens when it goes out into the world. You know you can do all the marketing in that

which you should, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to sell, you know, and your book is also subject to external influences. So for example, you might write a book about werewolves and release it about two weeks earlier, another werewolf came out and that captured the market. Or you might write a book about a pandemic and then suddenly something hits and you know, and then you're living it and it's like, I don't want to read this stuff. So there's so many trends and tastes and all that and they can just change very suddenly. So that's one of the hardest things.

Amra (33:37)
No.

Les Zig (33:41)
to sort of understand that the publishing industry one of the unfairest things that like you have no control over what happens over the book once it goes out into the world. can't force people to go buy it. And you know, have these misconceptions that like, if I get it in bookstores, it will sell. That's like, you been in the bookstore? Have you seen how many books are in the bookstore? Why is yours going to sell in big numbers? So that sort of goes back to what we're saying earlier. These are things you can't control. You can do everything right. It doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work in any other.

If you're doing well, if you're a great surgeon, you're a great landscaper, you're a great garbage collector, whatever the case, you'll probably move up the ranks with writing. You're at the whim of so many things you can't control. And this is what frustrates me with sole publishers is they're making promises that they cannot fulfill. You know, they're telling the authors, you have a best seller, you'll make the money, you'll back a site. They might not. But these people are being convinced to wager their savings on something, but they're being told there's a surge.

which is actually not a third of me. And that's just really, I mean, I hate that. We get a lot of people coming through who have had, they tell us horror stories of other places they've dealt with. And one of the differences of us, know, obviously, like I said, I've been writing for over 40 years, Kev Hallett, who's the boss there. He's been an illustrator photographer for as long. His wife, Blaise, when she ran the business before she passed away unexpectedly, she was also a writer. So like I always say to authors, we're coming at it from where you're, you know, we're sitting in the chair that you're sitting, you know,

I would say we're a creative business run by creative people for creative people. So we treat you the way we'd expect to be treated. The position's reversed. So that's one of the things that like really infuriates me when I see that there are writers who have been taken advantage of. And then you hear so many horror stories. had that recent one in Ballarat, which is Shoreline last year, which went belly up and just left. Yeah.

Amra (35:24)
my gosh, they

made me so angry. I saw them promoting on Facebook, award nominee, and they were submitting the know how if you're a member of Ally or of Small Network Press, there are certain awards that we can enter for free as part of our membership.

Les Zig (35:44)
Yep.

Amra (35:45)
And so they're putting these posts on Facebook like these people have been, they've nominated them for these awards as if that means anything. It means nothing.

Les Zig (35:54)
Yeah. And that's

I know of people there who paid $13,000 and got nothing.

We had clients who came to us who'd originally gone there and just lost And they were being told I had to wait like 18 months for their book to turn around, which again, self-publishing, if you're doing it, it should be a relatively quick turnaround. So there was so many things going

Yeah, but this is the thing that Yeah, because you're dealing with really good people who...

love what they're doing. You know, they're so excited. They've written the story and I want to see it out in the world and all that sort of stuff. And then the whole journey is just being tarnished because you're getting you're finding out that hang on. I was part of something that wasn't above board. Like I'm trying to choose my words carefully. So this is one thing like we get people at busy, but like I have these long conversations just explain this is the industry, you know, I, and I try and just sort of say, Hey,

I hope you have a bestseller, but there's no guarantee that's going to happen. And I just don't want you walking out of here and come back six months later going, ⁓ you took it and told me you told my book was going to sell thousands and I sold seven copies. And it's like, well, why is that? ⁓ it's cause publishing and writing is just a really, really, really hard journey. You know, as you said, you're working part-time. I'm still working pretty much full time.

I know writers who've won major awards who are still working, you know, pretty much full time in that particular in Australia, which is such a small market. And that's not to it can't happen because it obviously has for people. But it's just a case of when you get these establishments who were just lying directly to authors, you know, I know of another author, sure why this is a different place, who was just constantly ups.

They offered her like a deal. can get you in this book fair. can do this. And she ended up paying like $28,000 and didn't get a book at the end of it. Then she had to go to litigation. And I know that this place, it doesn't even do edits of books. It just sort of goes, here's a sample of 1500 words. Go edit your book. And I'll give you an example too of how unethical some of these places are. One of the early books we did, or we edited, we weren't actually going to publish it, is I had done this sort of talk about the subject matter, but like when I was reading,

it I was like this first chapter sounds so different than the second chapter and then when I read on it's like this third chapter sounds like a different writer again entirely and then what I did was I just grabbed a sentence and I stuck it in Google and I did a search and it found for like one of the chapters it was just a Wikipedia entry that the author had taken and rejigged a little bit like it was a year nine English assignment and they just juggled a few words around like okay and then that's what that offer done they just actually drawn stuff from different places on the net

and then just rejig the word here or there. And we explained that you can't do this. And she said she didn't know because she came from an academic background and you could repurpose stuff. And like we just explained, this is not what you can do. And she went elsewhere to publish and they told her, this is a great book. You need to get out there on the market. So there was no quality control at all. There was no checks, wherever she had copied stuff, plagiarized stuff.

So you get these places who really their bottom line is we just want your money and we don't really care about the book we're going to help you put out. It's really just about us getting paid. ⁓ And you look at some of these places in terms of what they're charging. It's like having worked in the business now. It's like I don't understand why they're charging you so much.

because outside of them paying their staff for like editing or design or whatever, they're making like, you know, a hundred percent markup on what to charge you. So it's really, really annoying and you know, really infuriating.

Amra (39:18)
⁓ when I was at the book fair a few weeks ago and I did a panel where we were talking about you know indie publishing and trad publishing. and someone came up to me afterwards and she's like I've been offered this contract and this publishing contract and she started telling me things and I said sweetie if you are paying someone that's not an actual publisher.

know a publisher pays you take your rights and then they pay the cost of publishing. If you are paying them then they are working for you and they are service provider for you and they should not be having any of your royalties and she's like she's been getting quite pushy and quite pushy and I said yeah check out Predator beware but that sounds like a very predatory individual.

Les Zig (39:50)
Yeah.

Amra (40:03)
And thankfully this author had attended this fair and was actually going around and talking to people and listening to panels and listening to people talking about industry. But so many people are just so desperate to have a book published and we can relate, we've been there. And they just don't do their due diligence and they don't really understand the landscape at all.

Les Zig (40:24)
I mean, in some fairness to the people who doing it, it's getting published. Some of the not so a lot of the people that deal with just really good talkers and we'll just really lead them down. Yeah, because you imagine with a lot of them, a lot of the offers that is they go into this trusting.

Amra (40:35)
Yes.

Les Zig (40:40)
They don't naturally go in as a skeptical and like, Hey, what was this? Why are you taking money? They think that's the model. Like I said, a lot of self publishers, I know a modeling themselves to traditional publishers and the office just don't know better. So when they're being told, it's going to cost you four or five grand. And then the office going, I have to pay. So that's part of the model. They don't know any better. And a lot of them just won't go do the due diligence. They won't go to, you know, look at a panel or go to a strange society for offers or as right as Victoria or whoever to ask these questions.

Amra (40:55)
Mmm.

Les Zig (41:10)
questions. So they're just sort of living in a vacuum and that's why they're so easily misled because they just don't know any better and they don't know who to speak to. And one of the bigger difficulties too is, know, we see a lot of older writers, you know, in talking about like retirees and people like that who might be writing memoirs and stuff like that, but they are also not of an age where you get people like our generation and previously internet's just part of our everyday lives.

lives. So you get people who jump on the internet and Google and stuff like that. You also dealing sometimes with older generations who don't naturally, you know, go on Google and research how publishing models work and stuff like that. So they're really gullible in that way and they just don't know any better. And again, they just sold, you know, lies or guarantees that can't be made. And ultimately they just lose thousands, unfortunately.

Amra (42:04)
Yeah, it really is very, very sad. But I'm really glad that we delved into that because I'm really hoping that this can reach people and they can sort of understand a lot more. And know where the ethical people are like Busy Bird Publishing and Hembury Books who are providing services, they don't keep any royalties, are building partnerships, building community, building support ecosystems.

to make sure that that journey is done the right way and you know the best chance of success.

Les Zig (42:37)
I think the technology will be there for people just to self publish themselves. So if you know enough about the business, you can totally do it yourself. But most people don't. But I think the technology will come in where people will be able to just, it'll be a one stop shop, know, where it'll be, here's the edits, here's the layout, here's the publish button. So it'll all be handled internally on the computer. know, there's a software called Atticus, which is online word processor, but that saves and publishes as an ebook directly to Amazon.

Amra (43:02)
⁓

Les Zig (43:03)
That's just bypassing all the self publishers or office service providers and as the technology advances because AI, you know, I know a lot of people want to dismiss it and this is not me advocating for it over using humans, but inevitably I think it will be replacing humans because as a people that's what we do. We always replace people with technology, you know, it's happened for hundreds of years. So I think inevitably AI will start giving you those options.

Amra (43:05)
Mm-mm.

Les Zig (43:31)
to do that and a lot of people just be able to publish directly from their computer. don't know how long that'll take but I always try and do I think these things are going to go and that's where I think that will start heading inevitably.

Amra (43:44)
I've just today purchased AI translation course through self-publishing formula. So, you know, that is one area that is really supporting writers to exploit their intellectual property. So before it would take thousands and thousands of dollars and time for someone to translate a book into another language.

Now you can use AI to do the grant work. You still need a human proofreader to actually check it and check the context and all of that. But it is making it more accessible. I'm actually working on my first book, my first translation ⁓ into Bosnian because I'm like, I can't really do another language until I translate into Bosnian.

Les Zig (44:22)
Okay.

Amra (44:28)
And so for that book, I'm using my husband as a proofreader to go through and to correct and to ensure that it is to standard. And I will be, looking at other languages that I've already got a German proofreader lined up. So that will be my first language. So, you know, those things are wonderful because

Les Zig (44:45)
I hope everyone just-

I just, I really just said how it does the translation to it because, um, uh, you know, I, background's Greek Macedonian. We spoke Macedonian at home translating the Macedonian directly into English. It doesn't always make sense because obviously there's different ways of thinking things are phrased in a sense, different signs and the like. So I'd be curious how it actually does a translation, how much it understands the ins and outs of how language works. Um, so I'd be really curious if that happens. Uh,

Amra (45:15)
Well,

⁓

You're actually supposed to create, I didn't do this, so my husband has had a lot more work, but what you're supposed to do is create files of like words that you don't want changed, rules in terms of the language and the words that you want used, and so give AI some parameters. And so I didn't do that. I was using Google Translate, which is not a great option, and it wasn't even doing like the pronouns correctly.

Les Zig (45:37)
Yeah.

Amra (45:41)
So I did then a short story where I saw how to do it. And I did then a short story with AI, setting up these files and setting up these rules. And he read it and he was like, this is great. This is much better. ⁓ So yeah, there is a process that you need to do. And then also this AI course that I've been looking at. So they're just showing you how to do the translation. You you still need to

Les Zig (45:54)
Okay. Yep.

Amra (46:07)
use the models and whatever. It's also about how to translate the blurbs. It's about how to find keywords in different languages, how to do marketing in the different languages. Even today I saw in a Facebook group about in Germany they have specific rules where you can't have a title that is the same as any other title, that your imprint page needs to have your publisher details.

Les Zig (46:27)
Okay.

Amra (46:32)
⁓ address details, a website, or you get like emails that you're breaking copyright. So, you know, there's all these things that you need to know about when you're publishing internationally so that you don't inadvertently break the rules that exist in that country of origin. So it's fascinating. ⁓ That's why I'm doing the course because self-publishing formula are really wonderful in terms of supporting authors and

developing courses to take you through it and then anytime anything changes they update those courses. So once you have them you have lifetime and the best thing is monthly fee monthly repayment plan. So you can afford it. You take 12 months to pay it off.

Les Zig (47:10)
Yeah, that's

cool.

I always point at like audio books too. Like right now, if you want to do an audio book, have to hire a studio, get in the radar, get a sound engineer, know, cut it all together. And AI will ultimately just do that. So it's like, do I pay $6,000 to do it in the studio or do I just get AI to do it for me in three minutes for a fraction of the cost? mean, AI already does it. Google Play Books already does audio book conversions. All it needs is the ebook and it just basically translate that to record.

Amra (47:39)
Mmm.

Les Zig (47:40)
to audio and it lets you choose from the voices. The voices are modeled on real people so they sound okay. I haven't done this for a few years so it might have changed completely but when I tried originally it just didn't have the ⁓ range to read a novel where you need it to go a bit more emotional or bit more intense.

Amra (47:56)
Mm.

Les Zig (47:56)
I have heard from someone else in the film industry. He was using another one. He's saying it is getting to the point you can direct it and just tell it do this. Be angrier, be whatever the case is. And yeah, I will learn to I will just actually go, hey, I can now get the context and tone of what I'm reading. I know this is meant to be a dramatic moment. I need to read it dramatically. So again, this is not to advocate for AI. Like this is what I say is totally would endorse humans over AI, but it's coming anyway. So it's like, well, how do you get in front of it?

and how do you make it work for you? would never endorse it to write you a book from scratch that, but as a tool that you can to compliment. Yeah. Yeah. So it's going to be invaluable in those eyes, but unfortunately it is probably going to cause a lot of redundancies in, you know, things like designers and editors. I mean, if you look at the AIs that are doing animation, it's really, really scary. You know, for animators, I don't know what's going to happen to the industry because AI is just doing that so well already. they get busy. think you always say,

Amra (48:33)
absolutely agree.

Les Zig (48:53)
So

we're not seeing the end of the technology here. We only see the beginning of it. So where it goes in the next five years, mean, you know, before potentially enslaves humanity or does something like that. It's really going to be a powerful tool to use in so many different ways as long as they do control it now, whether they can or can't. don't know. I mean, there's a lot of warnings coming out about what it's doing. And, you know, I heard Elon Musk talking about it once saying there's a 20 % chance it could

Amra (49:00)
Yes.

Les Zig (49:22)
to go wrong. And I was like, that's not a small figure. That's like one in five that things could go wrong. So, you know, it's, but in terms of like, you know, this is where I go back to, know, just to say for someone who wants to self publish, if they know a little bit, they could use AI to do the editing, to do the layout, to do the cover design and to do the administration. And ultimately you'll be, you your, your, your laptop, your computer is going to be your publisher too.

Amra (49:27)
Yeah.

Les Zig (49:50)
So people are to get more more opportunity to publish their work. And I think that's probably going to impact small press publishing too. And you'll get a lot more people doing it for themselves.

Amra (49:53)
Yeah, yeah.

think it

will.

Les Zig (50:01)
And what it means.

Amra (50:02)
Having said that, I honestly have come to the point of view that the only way to make a viable living as an author these days is as an indie author. That the traditional publishing industry is really not supportive of writers, especially in Australia, and it does not give you the opportunity to sort of make a wage. And so my point of view, and that's what I'm seeing play out in terms of the income that I'm getting and the income that I'm building.

as an indie author, that is the possibility of having a more viable source of income and achieving a little bit more financial freedom.

Les Zig (50:37)
Yeah, I should just go find a small press publisher. I mentioned additional small press publishing will struggle a lot more trying to get offers when the authors can just do it themselves. And I always say to authors, look, if you're going to if you plan to be a career or for and write multiple books and you're going to self publish, then treat the self publishing arm like a micro press that's separate from you. So you're the author and that's the micro press. They come up with a name, come up with a brand, go get the ice beans under that name. You know, if you can get a website and you have

Amra (50:43)
Yes.

Les Zig (51:07)
then have a publishing signature online that's to you as an author and I mean there's still some stigmatization around self-publishing so it also gives you separation in that regard and I think a lot of people like I know more and more people who aspire to become traditional authors you know myself I've been traditionally published four times but now I'm starting to do my own books too because I know enough to do them all and I know the reality of traditional publishing is it's very risk-averse

know, because they obviously want to make money. So there's a lot of good stories that just don't get published. And there's plenty of examples of stories that have been passed over repeatedly and then picked up somewhere down the line and then become a big hit. And that's Harry Potter is always the best example of that. And on the flip side, there's a lot of books that they've backed and haven't gone anywhere. So

I think a lot more authors are going to just say, I'm going to do it for myself. I'm going to have full control over it, know, and I'm sure.

going to be careful how so in terms of my marketing previously it wasn't exactly the sort of marketing I would have done and in retrospect I because I was working in the industry and I was getting published I was like I'm going to be hands off because I don't want to be the nosy or for his constant saying could do this do that but now in retrospect I think I should have actually done that because I sort of had strong ideas about the way they should have taken and what they did wasn't

incompetence or anything, was just decisions they made that they thought were going to work. And that's what every publisher is always doing. They're making decisions based on what they know, but that doesn't actually guarantee that they're going to succeed. know, mean, traditional publishers publish a swath of authors and not all of them, you know, selling tons of books. A lot of them aren't. It's just that the few that are selling books are selling lots. So they're always making decisions based on, you know, their knowledge of the market. I always say like they're making educated guests

but there's still guesses.

I think we've self publishing in the publishing. think a lot more people are going to go, you know, I know exactly how I want to do this. It's that doesn't mean it's going to work. That's necessarily means going to work. But it does mean at least I can feel satisfied that I tried things the way I wanted to do them. If they didn't work, well, I have no complaints to say, well, I should have it this way. So I think in the publish is really empowering authors to just go out and do it there on their own. And you're seeing more and more. Whereas I'd say, I know, 15, 16, 20 years ago,

Amra (53:23)
Yep.

Les Zig (53:24)
You probably had only people self publishing who really didn't understand the market as well. And now you're getting more and more people who aspire to become professional office. You potentially have been traditionally published like yourself, myself, who would just say, you know, I want to control the journey I'm just going to do it myself. And I know enough to do it or I know enough people who can help me do the aspects I can't do like cover design or whatever it is. And I'm just going to live and die by my own sword. So you have people who want that control.

Amra (53:52)
And you build your ecosystem. I've got a proofreader. Now I'm having proofreaders in the different languages. I've done audiobooks. I've worked with narrators. have my regular narrators that I was using. And if I do any further books, I'll be using. And so...

And what you're talking about, that's exactly what I did. I established myself as a micro press. I gave myself a name, registered as a small business, tied it to my ABN and really built the foundation in terms of what is it that I'm wanting to do as a press. So that I am taking it seriously. I am approaching it in a very, very professional way and setting the standard. And what I'm loving is just

the opportunities to exploit my intellectual property, to take advantage of all the energy that is happening in the indie world and the new innovations to try.

Les Zig (54:44)
And with your translations, you're thinking globally, which is also great. Like I always tell our offers, I think nationally we live in a digital world. can think internationally now. You don't have to be in the U S to do an interview. You can just do it through, you know, um, some sort of online medium like zoom or whatever the case is or riverside. So think internationally because your reach can go anywhere nowadays. You don't have to geographically be in that location. Um, you can seek reviewers anywhere across the world. You can seek.

Amra (55:12)
Exactly.

Les Zig (55:13)
interviews

and that sort of thing so don't think microscopically and particularly for Australia and not bag in Australia because our publishing industry is small but it is small and it's impoverished unfortunately because governments always tend to cut arts funding I mean look at what's the Victorian state governments doing to write as Victoria which is horrible so

Amra (55:34)
Yes, yes.

Les Zig (55:34)
Make it's

been a success in Australia doesn't even been a success in Victoria doesn't necessarily going to be a success in a different state because we are so spread and all that sort of stuff. So things that are a success here in Australia don't always go overseas. Whereas things that are big in the US and UK tend to splash back here. like, you know, think internationally. I know I sort of say, you know, obviously you got to keep perspective and don't go quit your day job just yet. Don't buy that Porsche.

It is part of the journey. the people who do have the overnight success. I said they're rare. then you get the people. I should look this up, but there's some actor who I'm thinking of Samuel Jackson, but it might not have been. But he said, took me 20 years to become an overnight success. And it's that sort of thing. Like when you break free,

everyone's like oh where'd this person come from and then you look and you go oh geez they've been around for ages doing work that i just never noticed but it just built and built and built until they broke through that's the same thing with writing totally

Amra (56:30)
Yes.

Well, that's the thing. I was traditionally published in Australia only. They bought all of my rights and didn't exploit them. I got the rights back to all of my backlist and started publishing. I get royalties from sales in Germany, in the UK, in the US.

Les Zig (56:51)
Yep.

The thing too is I mentioned... Yeah, I'm a traditional publisher too. If you're not...

Amra (56:58)
Go.

Les Zig (57:00)
having that skyrocket success, then they're just moving to the next offer in their queue. have your time in the sun. And if you're not having continued success, then they have to move on to the next offer and give them their focus. And that just goes on.

you know, I published a book five years ago. I can still push this. can still do posts on social media or still trying to get reviews for it whatever the case. So that's one of the beauties of being in control of your own journey. It really just means you work through your own timetable, but you also give yourself the love that you might not get long term from a traditional publisher. And that's not to be smudge traditional publishing. It's just to sort of say that you have to understand the So it's

Amra (57:22)
Yes.

Les Zig (57:38)
really difficult industry. It's saturated.

Amra (57:38)
Yeah.

Les Zig (57:40)
So it's like you can get lost in the crowd when you are a traditional publisher. If you're not that one, if you're not the, and I'm not saying this with any malice like if you're not the Trent Dalton, who's just taking off and getting a lot of exposure and stuff like that. A lot of times you just get lost in the crowd. I know really, really good offers who just don't get published or whose books have just disappeared. So being in charge of

Amra (58:02)
It's just that now every time I publish a new book, that's another opportunity for authors to find me and to find my books. And I don't stop promoting. I am constantly promoting my books.

Whereas as you said, a publisher does move on. They have other books that they need to promote and you know, everyone takes their turn. really enjoyed

Les Zig (58:25)
I'll just say really quickly too, mean as an indie author a bit more with your writing. With traditional publishers they tend to be

my optic in terms of like, is this book? it a horror? Is it a cipher? Whatever it is. Like I always say to interns, if you cannot see where your book would sit on the shelf in the bookstore, there's a very good chance of publishing. I'll take it on traditional publisher because they won't know how to market it. You know, it's a little bit of horror. It's a little bit of a romance. It's a little bit of a science fiction novel. They want to be able to, it's a horror novel. This will be pushing it, but as an indie author, you can do what you want. And you have a lot more license with your writing at times.

Amra (58:57)
For us, know, as indie authors, we never stop fighting for that book. And you have that more perspective. Well, I want to really thank you, Les, for coming on and for having this really great conversation about the industry that I'm hoping will support.

writers, especially emerging writers in understanding the industry. And I just also wanted to ask, is there anything that you're working on at the moment that you wanted to talk about?

Les Zig (59:25)
welcome don't you wish in the summer all books on the lead but i'm

Cause I just, I, we talked about sort of putting stuff away for a little bit and coming back to it. And that, so there's stuff I've just had sitting there for ages, which I'm just gradually revising. I'm actually going to do a re-release of my novel August Fallen, which has originally been published in 2018 with Pantera. And I've sort of given it like a direct discount. Like I've gone back and done things that should be more different to the commercial release. I do, I'm trying to start this blog and just try and the time at the moment, like a creative blog about,

I want to tell this story, but it's all told through journal entries about a guy who can't sleep. So in my life, I've had like a lot of sleep issues. And so every entry begins with him in bed and just sort of exploring why I can't sleep and stuff like that. Because when you can't sleep, you start to think some pretty murky things in the darkness. And I was thinking it'd be curious if I could tell a story just directly from never leaving that bed. And it's just what's happening around him as he tries to get us sleep.

Amra (1:00:02)
Mmm.

Les Zig (1:00:22)
I'm just not sure whether I'll do it on my website or on Substack or whether I'll just do both.

Amra (1:00:26)
Okay, great. Well, thank you so much. And I'm really looking forward to seeing what you're doing. also, anyone interested in writing, please follow Les on social media. You are very generous in sharing lessons, sharing things that you are coming across, things that you're learning, things that writers need to know about. So follow him in social media to get ⁓ access to all that amazing knowledge.

Les Zig (1:00:50)
Cool, thanks for having me on.