From Teaching to Author Coaching: A conversation with Kellie Nissen
Podcast: Download (Duration: 1 hour and 6 minutes)
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You can listen above or on your favourite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
Subscribe: Spotify | Apple | RSS | More
You can listen above or on your favourite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
Show notes
The conversation covers the transition from teaching to running a small creative business, the challenges of marketing and pricing as a small business owner, and the experience of starting a small business full-time. It also delves into the background of the guest and her journey to becoming an author coach. The conversation delves into the challenges faced by indie authors, the comparison between traditional and indie publishing, the human element in the publishing industry, and the importance of lifelong learning and authenticity in content creation.
Takeaways
Transition from teaching to running a small creative business
Challenges of marketing and pricing as a small business owner The challenges and misconceptions faced by indie authors
The importance of embracing the human element in content creation
Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Background
06:22 Challenges of Marketing and Pricing
24:36 Challenges of Being a Small Business Owner
34:57 Challenges of Indie Authors
40:28 Traditional vs. Indie Publishing
48:04 The Publishing Industry and Human Element
59:48 Lifelong Learning and Authenticity
Takeaways
Transition from teaching to running a small creative business
Challenges of marketing and pricing as a small business owner The challenges and misconceptions faced by indie authors
The importance of embracing the human element in content creation
Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Background
06:22 Challenges of Marketing and Pricing
24:36 Challenges of Being a Small Business Owner
34:57 Challenges of Indie Authors
40:28 Traditional vs. Indie Publishing
48:04 The Publishing Industry and Human Element
59:48 Lifelong Learning and Authenticity
Connect with Kellie Nielsen
Kellie Nielsen is an author coach, educator, and the founder of Just Right Words. Kellie spent over two decades as a teacher, working closely with language, learning, and the messy realities of how people actually develop confidence in their writing. These days, she brings that experience into her work as an author coach, supporting writers who want more than vague encouragement or cookie-cutter advice.
Through Just Right Words, Kellie works with emerging and indie authors at all stages — from idea and early drafts through to editing, refinement, and publication — with a strong focus on clarity, craft, and sustainable creative practice. She’s also deeply invested in the indie community, advocating for writers to understand their work not just as art, but as something worth backing, protecting, and building carefully over time.
In this conversation, we’re talking about the shift from teaching to running a small creative business, the skills educators bring into author coaching, the realities of working one-on-one with writers, and what genuine support for the indie community actually looks like — beyond buzzwords and gatekeeping.
Instagram: www.instagram.com/justrightwords/
Website: https://justrightwords.com.au/
Through Just Right Words, Kellie works with emerging and indie authors at all stages — from idea and early drafts through to editing, refinement, and publication — with a strong focus on clarity, craft, and sustainable creative practice. She’s also deeply invested in the indie community, advocating for writers to understand their work not just as art, but as something worth backing, protecting, and building carefully over time.
In this conversation, we’re talking about the shift from teaching to running a small creative business, the skills educators bring into author coaching, the realities of working one-on-one with writers, and what genuine support for the indie community actually looks like — beyond buzzwords and gatekeeping.
Instagram: www.instagram.com/justrightwords/
Website: https://justrightwords.com.au/
Transcript of episode
Amra (00:01)
Today I'm joined by Kelly Nielsen, who's an author, coach, educator, and the founder of Just Write Words. She spent over two decades as a teacher working closely with language learning and the messy realities of how people actually develop confidence in their writing. These days, she brings that experience into her work as an author coach, supporting writers who want more than vague encouragement. Through Just Write Words, Kelly works with emerging and indie authors at all stages from idea to refinement and publication. There's a strong focus on clarity, craft and sustainable creative practice. And she's deeply invested in the India community, advocating for writers. And that's actually how we met because I appeared on your podcast as an indie author. So thank you for that. So in this conversation, we're to talk about shifting from teaching to running a small creative business, the skills that we bring as educators, because we're both high school teachers. ⁓Primary School and working one-on-one with writers. So welcome Kelly, thank you so much for coming on.
Kellie Nissen (01:06)
Thank you, Amra. has been a journey in the making with trying to actually find a time that we were both available, right? So, yeah.
Amra (01:14)
I know. And then the best part is we actually are available and we've got it on the books. And then my perimenopausal brain couldn't remember how to log into my software, how to start my software, how to record. So that was also a fun journey for a few minutes there.
Kellie Nissen (01:33)
It was, but we made it. We made it.
Amra (01:36)
a lovely adrenaline rush just kind of getting me going, getting me moving this afternoon. So I think I wanted to start with, you know, what is an actual author coach and how did you sort of get into this side of your, this business that you started?
Kellie Nissen (01:53)
Wow, that's like a really long story, I'm gonna try to condense it. So to start with, an author coach is a coach, essentially, who works with authors or people who have a book idea inside them and need help bringing that book out into the world. whether they've just got like a little bit of an idea and they need help.
like or confidence or motivation sometimes just refining that idea or knowing how to structure the book or whatever or maybe like some of my clients they've already written their book and they're like I don't know if this is good enough I know there are gaps I'm sick of looking at it blah blah blah so I step in at any stage really and just provide that encouragement and the feedback and the motivation to keep going and to get it out there.
Second part of the question, how did I get into it? So as you mentioned, I was a teacher for what I now refer to as longer than a life sentence, because I was teaching for 26 years. Don't get me wrong, I loved the actual teaching side of things. It was the other stuff that was sort of ceased to be enjoyable after a while.
I spent a number of years towards the end of my career thinking, I don't want to do this anymore, but I don't know how to get out. you would know this teachers have this thing where we we've been doing it for so long. We think we've got no other skills. Whereas when you're a teacher, you have all of these skills that you can apply to almost every career, except perhaps brain surgery and rocket science. But so I spent a lot of time sort of thinking, you know, want to get out, but, ⁓ you know, it's a risk factor and I've got a permanent position and blah, blah, blah. And eventually, I just came to the realization after I'd had breast cancer and thought life is too short to be doing what I don't want to be doing anymore. I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. So I went in for a meeting. with my principal so I'd sort of started my business as an editor and was just sort of doing it in between, you know, in the cracks and I went in for a meeting with my principal, the yearly what do want to do now meeting and he said to me, he's like well for next year he said I either need you to come back full time because I was working part time or we'll have to look at a transfer and
I'm just like, you know, I knew it was coming. been at that school for like seven or eight years anyway. And I just went, I opened my mouth and I think I surprised both of us. just said, you know, I think I might just resign. And I think my, in my head, I was just like, my God, what are you saying? Shut up, shut up, shut up. But those words came out of my mouth and he looked at me and he's like, and this was in July. Okay. And he's like, when at the end of the year? I went, no, now.
And I walked out after then negotiating that I'd stay for an extra month. I walked out and went to a colleague and went, I've just quit. that. yeah, so that was, sort of fell into working the business full time that way and had started like editing. So I was just, I was copy editing and proofreading.
And the more I worked with people, the more I actually realised that I could use my teaching skills to coach because I really, I've essentially gone from teaching to teaching and, but being able to choose who I teach, if that makes sense. Yeah.
Amra (05:22)
I mean, your own story, was just listening to your story. going, you that's the thing. So many of us who are teachers, we love the classroom, we love the kids in it. But outside of it, we just feel like cogs in a machine that are just being ground. And, you know, like we don't get choice. They give us whatever they want in terms of classes. Like I'm working four days a week. They give me whatever day they want in terms of my day off. I don't even put a preference anymore because I'm like, that's actually worse to put a preference and have it ignored.
Kellie Nissen (05:34)
Yes.
Amra (05:50)
And that's what sort of wears you down. as you were talking, I was like, my gosh, I'm having a lot of those same thoughts and feelings where, and this is also, I like to talk to people in this podcast who have interesting stories, but also from my own professional learning. And so you are kind of my inspiration in terms of the way to transition out of the teaching profession and into something that's
Kellie Nissen (05:58)
Mmm.
Amra (06:18)
sort of matches our interests a little bit more. And there was just something else I was thinking about and I thought, did you want to talk about it in terms of. There are so many emerging writers who really want to tell a story and have a book they want to write and tell. And there are so many dodgy operators out there who take advantage of them, who rip them off, who, you know, these poor people think that they're getting a publishing contract and they're like, I'm getting a publishing contract and then they want me to pay $5,000. And we're like, sweetie, no. If they want you to pay, that means that they are providing you the service.
Kellie Nissen (06:33)
Amen.
Amra (06:54)
So is that something that also you're sort of seeing and you're, you know, seeing your clients go through?
Kellie Nissen (06:59)
Yeah,
I do. see a lot of it and it makes me so cranky. So I, if I've got a client, I always say, and if they are putting their work out there to submit to traditional publishers, I will always say to them, let me know who you're submitting to. You know, I can give you a hand to write you cover letter, blah.
So if they come back to me and they're like, ⁓ you know, I just noticed this group, they came up this publisher. I'm going to submit to them. I'm just upfront. I'm like, no, that's a vanity publisher. Don't do it. Just just don't do it. There are a couple of publishers out there who I won't name, even though I'd like to, who go under the banner of being traditional, but are not operating ethically.
Amra (07:32)
Mm.
Kellie Nissen (07:46)
I have said to a couple of clients if you go with them, I will not help you so I'm Like what you see is what you get basically. I'm not I don't beat around the bush If I don't like something I'll Say I'll say that and I'll say why? But yeah when it comes to paying for to get your book published there's good and there's evil
with that. we do have our hybrid publishers as well who and some of the hybrid publishers are fantastic. They are legitimate. It's sometimes it's called author supported publishing as well and they're absolutely some of them are absolutely legitimate. You just need to do your homework. So you know if something
Amra (08:23)
Yes.
Kellie Nissen (08:33)
seems a bit dodgy if you get headhunted by a publisher saying, you know I've seen your work online and da da da da and I love what you do and I'd really, it's, publishers don't do that. Okay, they have enough people submitting work to them. They don't need to, if they're legitimate, they don't need to go hunting for you. So some of it,
Amra (08:50)
No.
Kellie Nissen (08:59)
comes down to, dare I say, common sense. ⁓
Amra (09:03)
Yeah, I think people don't understand because if it is someone that you are paying to provide service to you, then it is your copyright and you get every bit of the royalty. Whatever is sold is your money. But if you are paying for a service and then they are saying, oh, and we get the royalty or we get a percentage of the royalty. No, no.
Kellie Nissen (09:12)
Yes.
Amra (09:29)
because when you are traditionally published, they buy the rights from you and you get a royalty because they have invested and they are producing the book. Therefore you get, you know, a percentage, a 10 % of whatever the cost is. But when we are publishing ourselves and we put a book for sale, whatever the difference is between the sale price and our production costs, That profit is all ours.
Kellie Nissen (09:56)
Yep, absolutely, absolutely. I think too, you, you know, if you've come across, like if you've had an offer from a publisher, whether they're traditional or hybrid or whatever, or it could be a self-publishing operation like the one that I run, you look at the contract and you go through it with a fine-tooth comb. And there are organizations out there, who can actually, for a fee, and it's 100 % worth it, actually look over your contract and offer suggestions for improvement or say whether it's legitimate. So the Australian Society of Authors, for example, offer that service. Alex Adset offers that service as well as part of her agency. So there are people out there who do it, but don't, I think,
I think a lot of these ⁓ so-called publishers, prey on people's emotion. You've put your heart and soul into writing something and to have somebody say, love this, I'd like to publish it, instantly you're like, my God, it's all been worth it. And I think any shred of common sense that you might otherwise possess flies straight out the window. So take a step back. breathe, look at it, get somebody else to look at it for you.
Amra (11:14)
Yeah, and that's the thing. Most of us, we've dreamed about this all of our lives. And so, you know, like I remember for me when I actually got the call, when we used to get the calls. And so for me, it was the call that I had been shortlisted for the Victorian Premier's Prize for an unpublished manuscript. And so it was like, and that was a very, and still is a very prestigious prize that gets a lot of publicity and a lot of mention.
Kellie Nissen (11:19)
Yes.
Amra (11:41)
amazing authors were being published as well as moi. So modest, don't I? I like also that I don't really have much hair, I'm like, I'm going to do it. I'm going to do the flick. I will make that effort. will make the flick work. That's right.
Kellie Nissen (11:45)
I love this.
Amra (11:59)
Yeah, so you know we all hunger for that and that's something also that I'm noticing in the indie world because I was traditionally published and I had a lot of those accolades but also I put in the work. I had a lot of short stories published, won a lot of prizes, so really built my CV over you know a decade, slow drip and then worked my way up to a publishing contract and then all the other bells and whistles that come with it.
So I still see it a lot with indie authors who are sort of searching for that validation. And the amazing thing is some of them are earning so much more money than I ever earned as a traditionally published author.
Kellie Nissen (12:33)
If you do the right thing and you do your promotion and you put in the legwork and that sort of thing, you can 100 % earn back what you've spent and then start making a profit. You don't need to take shortcuts to get there. But I think as you would well know that it's the legwork afterwards and the ability to sell yourself and sell your book that is really important to be able to do. do that really as an indie author. No!
Amra (13:12)
Yes.
And the promotion doesn't end. That's the thing. Like it is a constant process, but it's also a wonderful thing that you can do because when you are traditionally published, they give you six weeks of a publicist sort of giving you some attention and something happening, if you're lucky. And then you just kind of sink to the bottom with them. They've moved on to another book, another author. Whereas when you are running it as your own small business, every book that
Kellie Nissen (13:28)
if you're lucky.
Amra (13:41)
you do is you promoting and getting it out there. ⁓ What are some of the things that you're seeing that you think that emerging authors need a little bit more thinking about? I we talked about the research and understanding the publishing industry and understanding what they're getting into.
Kellie Nissen (13:42)
So I don't know if you're talking about like emerging as in still writing their book, yeah. So thinking about, there's so many things to think about. I think just knowing.
about. Knowing that it's not just your one draft and it's going to be perfect. Knowing that you need to redraft multiple times with your target audience in mind as well and your message. If you're writing fiction you have your story question. You know everything that you do needs to feed into that. You want at the end of the day you want what you've written to be the best it possibly can be.
But in saying that too, think you also need to, people need to remember, and a lot of new authors and some really established ones still struggle with this, is that you don't need to action every single bit of feedback that you get. And that was probably, you know, when I was, when I'd started to write, seriously,
Amra (14:57)
Yes.
Kellie Nissen (15:03)
I fell into that trap. like, no, I know nothing. I've got Symposter Syndrome, blah, blah. I've got these, you know, a couple of great mentors. And I'll just, you know, every time they say something, I'm going to make that change. And somebody says that I'm going to make that change. And what I ended up with was a manuscript that I didn't even recognize as my voice. It wasn't my story. And it was a piece of rubbish basically, because I tried to shove in.
all of the feedback and I lost it in the process. I think with feedback is, even if it's from a professional editor, and I say this to my clients all the time, just because I've made this suggestion or made this comment does not mean that it is right for you unless it's a grammatical thing. And even then, rules are made to be broken. So...
Amra (15:31)
Yeah. is. if you can justify it, if there's a reason for it.
Kellie Nissen (15:54)
If you can justify it, like particularly in poetry as well, but you know, if you look at a piece of feedback and you're like, you know, that doesn't really sit what I'm, know, serve what I'm trying to say, it doesn't really sound like me or whatever, don't put it in because at the end of the day, the name on the front of the book is yours and this is your story, you know, so.
Amra (15:57)
Yeah. That comes from confidence in terms of ⁓ when you're writing and you're starting out, you don't quite know. The other thing that I've seen is, especially when I run memoir writing workshops, a lot of women about our age are writing about traumatic experience that they've gone through, a lot of sexual abuse. And so where they go to a writing group and they're sharing something very personal, very traumatic that happened to them, and a lot of people don't
Kellie Nissen (16:19)
100. on you
Amra (16:45)
like trauma, they don't want to be confronted with it, they find it uncomfortable and so you know had to have conversations with them about really find the safe space, find that safe person ⁓ who can support you in that writing process and be there for you because you know especially with memoir if you're writing something so personal it really can
Kellie Nissen (16:57)
it.
Mmm.
Amra (17:07)
gonna break you a little bit. But also just when you talk about feedback, my memoir that I ⁓ ended up getting traditionally published, but it was a really long protracted journey with my agent submitting her giving up, me taking over. But I had Alice Pung as my mentor and I originally wrote it in two points of view, my point of view and my mum's point of view. And I really liked that structure and she was like, yeah, this is great. And then I submitted it to my
Kellie Nissen (17:09)
Yes.
Amra (17:37)
agent and my agent was like, no, no, no, we need to make it more first person to make it more commercial. And I remember having this conversation with Alice where she was like, there was nothing wrong with your book. Your book was great as it is. And that's the thing, you know, there are all these different aspects that come into it. So in that situation, it was about my agent wanting something that was more commercial, that had more saleability. But in the end, it wasn't for her. She wasn't the person who sold it.
Kellie Nissen (17:48)
Yes.
Amra (18:05)
that change. I'm still happy with the book that I did and the changes that I made, but yeah, it was a very different book in terms of your point of view that I had. So.
Kellie Nissen (18:15)
Yeah, yeah absolutely and you do you need to find I think and it is a confidence thing as well but I think you need to as an author you need to back yourself and if you're working with somebody who doesn't align with your vision, they're not the right person. And I've said this to past previous clients, it's like, have a very strong opinion about XYZ that you're writing about.
I'm not sure that I'm the best person to edit this for you. That being said, you're talking about trauma before I, a while ago, got a little bit of a reputation for being the editor who, I will edit and work with people who writing trauma based things. There's a lot of editors who can't for their own personal reasons and that is fine as well and they're open about that and honest as well, whereas
I don't know whether it's my teaching background and the number of mandatory reports that I had to put in, but I have this weird uncanny ability to be able to separate the job, but still be compassionate, but separate that from my own internal, you know, don't take that on board. can edit it, you know, objectively as well. So.
Amra (19:28)
Yes.
Kellie Nissen (19:31)
But it is important and it is hard when you're writing trauma-based stuff. It's hard on the author and it's hard on the people who are reading it as well, but it's so important to write about that sort of thing.
Amra (19:35)
Yeah, yeah. because there are stories we need out there, like because it's about, like I recently read a book, actually have I got it here, All Things in Nature Merely Grow, about an author, this is one of her books, Yi Yun Li, yeah, about losing two sons to suicide and...
Kellie Nissen (19:47)
Yeah.
Amra (20:04)
my stepfather committed suicide and this book just completely like I had an internal shift where something really opened up and things made sense for me and I had this great sense of
Kellie Nissen (20:14)
Yeah.
Amra (20:18)
just you know relief and and realization and that's why we need these books we need them to process our own emotions and our own difficult times and they are lighting that path for us as we go yeah
Kellie Nissen (20:18)
Yes.
I think too, there's a lot of authors who, and I've worked with a lot of people who've gone, oh, I've got this story, but nobody will be interested. So that was me initially with my breast cancer memoir. I'm just like, oh my God, do you know how many books there are out there about breast cancer, memoirs about breast cancer? There's literally thousands of them. I'm like, who am I to think I can write one that'll add to that?
story wouldn't leave me alone but what I'm saying is that you know they're not everybody, your book is not going to be for everybody, your story is not going to be for everybody but it will be for somebody and that somebody you may well change the course of their life just by them seeing themselves in what you've written and knowing that they're not alone.
Amra (21:18)
Yes.
Kellie Nissen (21:23)
So you know what, you're compelled to tell your story, tell it.
Amra (21:29)
Yes, because it's that, I don't know, you have to lead with that heart and that passion because that's what carries us through when we're reading. That's what we really, really feel. So in terms of the business and the book coaching, what have been some of the things about being a business, small business person and entering this new world? What have been some of the challenges or
Kellie Nissen (21:35)
Yes.
Amra (21:55)
some of the things that you wish you'd known.
Kellie Nissen (21:57)
How long have we got?
Amra (21:58)
⁓ let's
Kellie Nissen (21:59)
Challenges man so I Think about like Marketing your own business and putting yourself out there and you know promotion and there is that you know It's an issue for indie authors as well marketing promotion distribution But as as a small business owner, there are a lot of people who do what I do basically and
You know some people are great, some people are not so great but there are a lot of people out there on social media, know long linked in Instagram talking about you know I'm an author coach and this is why you should work for me, work with me. With me I still struggle with that whole marketing. I've got a coach at the moment saying put yourself out there, do this. I don't like.
don't cold calling, don't like connecting with people and instantly selling, even though I know it's something that you have to do. But I'm also in the very fortunate position that when I started the business, I already had a lot of contacts because I I sort of started circulating in the author world.
⁓ author and creative world before I started circulating in the small business world. And so I had a lot of contacts. had people who knew what I did. And then I also, my first business coach encouraged me to join a business networking group and that's where I got my first clients and sort of built from there. So I've always, always, and I'm gonna shoot myself in the foot here, I hope I don't jinx myself, but I've always gained new clients through
people I know and people I know who know other people who refer. Right. And I've I do a little bit of promotion on LinkedIn and Instagram and I have gained clients, a couple of clients through LinkedIn as well. But the bulk of my clients come from people I know and from referrals. So I've been lucky and I always think, God, you know, if my clients dry up.
Amra (23:43)
Yes. Yeah.
Kellie Nissen (24:02)
And every now and then you sort of think it's going to happen and then all of a sudden, you know, I get this sort of influx. But I'm just like, I wouldn't even know how to start marketing my business. It's like, what are you doing? I don't know. It's like, I've got to go out there and sell myself. I've got to start running Facebook ads. You know, so I think that is challenging in itself in that it's a constant concern when you're working freelancing in small business, being a sole trader.
Where is my next client coming from? What if I'm just about finished this job that I'm working on? What if I don't get anybody else? Who am I going to get to? It's always that, and that's a challenge. And sort of trusting the process and overcoming that challenge is, overcoming that self-doubt is probably the biggest challenge there is. The other challenge is pricing.
Amra (24:50)
Yes.
Kellie Nissen (24:50)
As like, my, know, how much is too much? I wanna get clients, I don't wanna scare them off. But I've also, I also don't wanna work for a dollar an hour, you know? Finding, yeah, finding clients that actually value your time and your expertise. And when you say, okay, this is how much that will cost, they go, that's great, thank you. Rather than,
Amra (24:59)
Yes, yeah, because these are time consuming things. ⁓
Kellie Nissen (25:16)
that's so expensive. Okay, well, what was your budget? And they give you like 10 % of what you said is like, yeah, you know, please go to Fiverr. But it is like I spent a lot of the first five years even and even now I struggle with it, but just self doubting my pricing and then allowing myself to be beaten down. in price because I'm just like, you know, I'll give you this price and because I'm worried you won't pay the full price and then resenting it. That's the worst thing, you know.
Amra (25:45)
Yes, because I've that too, where I've done gigs for less and they've just been angry and thinking because you know want to do these things where you're like okay this is the best me and this is the moment and you know we're all about wanting to just like get things out of life. Yeah.
Kellie Nissen (25:53)
Yes!
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I know and it's it is and it's not it's not anger at the client because you made this bitch self Right. It's just why did I do that? Yes, yeah mind you I do there are a couple of people who circulate in my world and who won't be after a while who I've given a little bit and they take advantage of it and it's like ⁓ you know
Amra (26:12)
Yes, yes, you're the one who went home. I'm going to accept that.
Kellie Nissen (26:31)
love the free stuff but don't want your paid stuff. know and that's this is about me looking at these people and going you are not my you are not my people that's it you know you've got to draw the line somewhere and it sounds awful and there's going to be people out there going my god she's such a terrible person and blah blah blah but too bad you're not my people either.
Amra (26:35)
Yeah, that's lesson I've learned too. But also I've learned the hard way, if someone gets something for nothing, they put no value on it. At all. at all. Whereas as soon as you attach a monetary price, so even if I'm giving a discount in terms of, you know, local rates, it's like, well, this is my usual race, but because I am doing it this because it's like, you need to know that I am lowering and that that is why. ⁓ But yeah, it's a different mindset as we go into a business mode, but then we've got that
Kellie Nissen (27:11)
yep.
Amra (27:29)
bleeding hard and we're battling all of those internal emotions.
Kellie Nissen (27:32)
Yes, and some of it is that teacher thing too, I think, is that you're like as a career teacher, we're here to nurture and we're here to help and that's why we're in this industry and sometimes I look at it like, why did I go from this helping nurturing industry into another one? You know, but you know, it's what we do but it also allows us, you know, to
Amra (27:37)
Yes.
Kellie Nissen (27:58)
allow ourselves to be taken advantage of in that way.
Amra (28:02)
Even I just saw, I don't know if you know who Holden Shepherd is.
Young adult author from Perth, his book Invisible Boys was made into a Stan TV show. So he's doing very well and he just posted about because he's gay and so he writes characters who are gay in own voice as stories. And as Pride Month is, you know, at some point coming up, people are reaching out and expecting him to work for free.
Kellie Nissen (28:18)
there is that issue, yes.
Amra (28:29)
there and he was very angry about that and I was like that's the thing you don't ask a plumber you don't know hey I know you've got a mortgage and you've got this skill and this knowledge but I'm gonna call you and ask you to work for free just because I don't value you.
Kellie Nissen (28:35)
Yes. I think there is something in the I don't value but I think there's also a misconception there in the general public that and I think the more we say this hopefully it will change but that misconception is you're an author your book retails for $32.99 you must be rich you know you must get all that money so particularly well
Amra (29:06)
No.
Kellie Nissen (29:10)
Actually, I'm not even going say particularly. All authors, just let it be known, authors, most authors have to work a full-time job in order to support their writing career. ⁓ Yes, we all do. It's like I don't even want to think about what money I have not made from my books. But there is that thing and you hear this is a very, very common complaint amongst ⁓ children's authors who do school visits.
Amra (29:20)
Yeah, I do.
Kellie Nissen (29:38)
is the schools say, hey, we'd love you to come along to book week, and then when the author goes, okay, it'll cost this much, they're like, ⁓ you charge. It's like, well, I don't do this for the love of it. ⁓ you know, we thought, you know, make money from, it's like, authors make money, their money comes, their breadwinning comes from doing public appearances and being paid for those.
Amra (29:58)
Yes, from all the other things. Yeah, because most of my income was coming from freelance writing and doing workshops. have not. Yeah, yeah. And it gets in. Like I've been invited to like, you know, festivals and I'm like, oh, I mean.
Kellie Nissen (30:05)
Yes, we work to support our writing habit.
Amra (30:17)
to a festival and then they're like it's for free I'm like darling that's a two-hour trip that you're wanting me to give up you know such a big chunk of my time where I could be doing 50 million other things including writing but you know anything else yeah it is it is a big problem
Kellie Nissen (30:21)
You know?
Yes. Yep.
And it's not only the travel time and the time spent there It's and possibly your accommodation that you might have to pay for yourself as well. It's not a holiday It's also the prep time because no Actually, it's one author I know who can do this but no other most authors can't go and give an hour-long presentation without at least 10 hours of prep behind that, you know and possibly more plus the angst and
Amra (30:44)
Yeah.
Kellie Nissen (31:04)
practice and that sort of thing. yeah I think I don't know whether it's a lack of value or a lack of actual comprehension as to how much authors do actually earn from their books. And I just I've been this has been gnawing away my head ever since we started talking about this but as an indie author and I hate this and I've actually lost a couple of friends over it. Kelly ⁓ I'd love to read your book.
Amra (31:16)
Yeah.
Kellie Nissen (31:30)
Can I have a copy? Have. Okay, so this book cost me X amount to publish. Yeah sure, I'm just gonna buy, because I published the Ring of Misfortune, I'm gonna buy a whole heap of copies and I'm just gonna give them away as gifts. No, okay, don't ask an indie author to gift you their book. That's it, you know. Have that as a respect. yeah.
Amra (31:50)
Yeah. Yeah. And it's also like we do review copies. you know, with my people, a review, but that's a digital copy, darling. ⁓ Not many of us, unless you've got a platform and you're actually going to be showing my physical copy in some way, ⁓ you know, like, yeah, there is a lot of, I had someone, I was a little bit cranky. I had someone,
Kellie Nissen (31:59)
huh.
Amra (32:15)
ask for a review copy and I was like great and then I saw them and I said you know can you post a review on Goodreads I don't have my Goodreads account.
Kellie Nissen (32:24)
Yep, okay that's you.
Amra (32:24)
But I gave you a review copy. That's what a review copy means. ⁓
Kellie Nissen (32:26)
Yes. Yeah, yeah. Where are you reviewing that, by the way? Yeah. Yes.
Amra (32:32)
But that's on me. That's on me. In future, if providing a review copy, you know, there has to be a Google form and a list of where will you be publicizing this review? So, you know, that's also a learning, a learning lesson for me.
Kellie Nissen (32:43)
Yeah. Yep, I know and it's important information like for new and also existing indie authors is there's so much like you don't know until you need to know and one of those things is okay well what do do after I finish the book? What do I do after I've got the book in my hand? What's involved next? It's not just going to get on know grow legs and sell itself.
if somebody and you will get on, they're rampant on Instagram at the moment is people who say, do promotion, I do this and I really love your book. get like a DM from somebody you don't know. you know, I want to promote it and I give them some followers and blah, blah, blah. Most of them are not legit. And there is a lot of stuff going around at the moment where they're finding your email and they're emailing you with.
Amra (33:25)
every day.
Kellie Nissen (33:37)
Under what looks like a legitimate email, it's all scams. I look at these things and I'm like, treat every email you receive as a scam until proven otherwise. And it's not innocent until proven guilty, it's actually where it is. Yes.
Amra (33:42)
Yes. My favorite one. No, unfortunately, because they're using AI to just write these emails that sound vaguely like they read the book. My favorite was there was a scam going around about spotlights and that they're doing it anyway, that it's like some US show hosts in America doing a talk show and they're calling me to do a talk show and.
Kellie Nissen (34:09)
I think.
Amra (34:14)
They called me on a hot day and I am not on my best on a hot day. All right? And they called me and I said...
And started, and I said, why are you asking me questions? If you are contacting me and you are a publicist for the show, then you should have all that information about me. You should know who I am and what my achievements are and why you are inviting me. And so I just chastised them and then hung up and blocked the number because I was like, just, but unfortunately people don't know, but I have actually lived in, you know, done the traditional publishing. have been on TV, you know, tiny little things and. done radio and all of this stuff. So I have some experience with some of these things that people don't. And you know, if someone is genuinely contacting you and they are doing that cold call where they're wanting to, you know, interview you or do something, they will know about you properly. It won't be just that vague stuff. You know, it'll be something very, very clear and very specific. And then you will question them and you will
You know? tease them out. Yeah. So one of the things that I also wanted to talk about is, you know, we've talked a lot about the issues for emerging writers in terms of understanding the publishing world and protecting themselves and doing the best that they can. But one of the things that we also discussed and I wanted to pick up a bit more is traditional publishing versus indie publishing and in Australia this really, you know, big sort of stigma.
And you started your podcast so that you would just interview indie authors to give them a platform and a voice and promote that. So I just wanted to hear your perspective about that a little bit.
Kellie Nissen (35:56)
Yeah, I, with actually from the suggestion of a writer friend of mine I went, you know what, my new personal hashtag is going to be Prod the Dragon. I, okay, so I'm self-published, but, and in the back of my mind I sort of thought, oh people are going to do this because they think it's sour grapes, right?
they're going to look at what I'm doing and go, know, she's just so great, blah, But I see it with a lot of people is there is this overarching archaic, pathetic perception that if you are self-published, it's because your work was not good enough to be traditionally published. And you see it across the board. So you see awards not accepting, no you can't submit your book for this award if you're self-published because you're not good enough for that. I got long listed and then short listed in the ACT Writers Awards a couple of years ago for my memoir and I came runner-up or second or whatever but my book was not compared against traditionally published authors they actually separated out those categories and I was like okay well why why do you have to have a separate I mean I should I'm really pleased that they did accept like indie indie books that's that's a huge leap compared to some awards but there was still that separation it was like you know your your your book is not good enough to be compared to somebody else so we'll give you your own little you know category and that sort of thing
And then, yeah, so you see it in awards, see it in distributors. They won't touch you if you're an independent publisher, independent author. You see it in competitions, awards, you see it in other podcasts. So what really got me going was seeing a couple of people in...various author platforms say, hey, I've got this podcast, really, you know, I'd love for people to submit your stuff, you know, send it to me, blah, blah, blah, blah. So one person was quite upfront and said, only traditionally published authors. And instantly I went, well, why? Why? Because I worked with a few people and know a few people that publish the most gorgeous.
picture books, they spend a lot of money, they hire top-notch illustrators and that sort of thing, but they're self-publishing and this is a choice, it's not because their work isn't good enough. But then the next podcast person came along and went, everybody's welcome. So I just put up, this is in a Facebook forum, I just put up a little comment saying, so what about self-published? no, no, not self-published. And so I pushed it.
I'm like well why? Why is that? I don't have enough time to do this. So what you're saying is that self-published is not good enough? Yeah well you know traditionally published you know they've done the work and the blah blah blah and the conversation went on like that and eventually I pushed it so far that this person blocked me. So I'm like well that's a win. I'm quite pleased with that but that was I just went you know I am really cranky about this and then
Amra (39:03)
Hahaha!
Kellie Nissen (39:09)
I think the final nail, if you like, and I'm not going to say in the coffin, but you know quite like that concept, is when the ASA came out and supported a program that did not support independent authors at all and was excluding them. So, and I actually called them on that publicly so I'm quite happy to say it here. ASA are fantastic in so many ways but
There's just been a couple of times they've supported organizations that exclude independent authors for no reason at all. And I'm like, well, that's it. So I'm going to do this podcast that, yeah, okay, so I exclude traditional published authors, but they have so many opportunities in so many other podcasts. They don't need me, my little podcast, but.
I love talking to authors who've published under their own steam and to other people in the industry who support independent authors. I've interviewed Jessie Kniffey, does book blurb magic. Sorry, Jessie. She works with independently published authors writing their blurbs.
It astounds me all the time. I just want to shine a little light on independent authors and just say, know, hashtag self-published is not second best by any extreme and we need to be treated equally. other thing is booksellers as well. Take your book, yeah. Take your book if you're an independent author.
Take your book to some of the bigger booksellers out there and I've done this with mine and with clients books with a couple and they're like, oh, you know, just wondering if you'd like to have a look at this book and maybe, you know, take a couple of copies on consignment and blah, blah. Oh, is it self-published? Yes. No, thank you. Don't look at the book. Don't, you know, judge the, you know, they've judged the book on the fact that it's been self-published. Do you want to look at this?
Amra (41:01)
Good.
Kellie Nissen (41:08)
this book was professionally edited, has this professional design blah blah blah blah. No, it's self-published, we don't do that. Shout out to the book shops who do, who support them.
Amra (41:16)
Yeah, Better Read then Dead who have got my copies of Time Kneels Between Mountains. Readings also do it. Some Dymockss stores will also support Indian. Yeah, but it depends on the store. It's not every single one. It depends on the specific store.
Kellie Nissen (41:20)
Mm-hmm. Yep. Mm-hmm. Yes, because they're franchises, right? So, yes. Yes, the book Howl in Canberra. So supportive of independent, ⁓ local independent authors. So there are booksellers out there that do that, but there are a lot that just go, yeah, no, aside without even looking at the book. So, you know, judge the book on the book, not on the pathway. Yeah.
Amra (41:52)
Because readers do, readers do, because at this point, I make this claim and I do not believe it is hyperbole.
I make the claim that at this junction in time, the most viable way for an author to make a living is by being an independently published author ⁓ because the traditional publishing model is collapsing and there's so many more pressures and less opportunities. But also what I find fascinating is if you are an artist, you paint, you put on an exhibition at a gallery and people buy your work and that's okay.
Kellie Nissen (42:09)
Yes.
Amra (42:28)
are a jeweler, you create jewelry, you sell it online, you sell it in markets, that's okay. So there are all these crafts, all these people who are creating things themselves, they are doing it themselves and they are selling you know beautiful amazing things. But there is something about
Kellie Nissen (42:47)
Yeah.
Amra (42:50)
the writing world and the publishing industry almost, I almost think that this is on purpose, that this is an effort to, because honestly, I'm gonna make another statement here that's controversial.
Kellie Nissen (42:57)
Bye.
Amra (43:03)
But the only way that the traditional publishing industry functions is because it's gaslighting us into thinking that we are the chosen ones. But when you actually look at what you get from the fact that they are taking all of your intellectual property, like they sign you to a contract where they take everything, all of your rights, and you have no right of negotiation or refusal. You just basically have to take it or leave it.
And, you know, so they take it, they take it all, but what you get back, you get 10%. And you don't even, if you're lucky, like...
Kellie Nissen (43:33)
Yes, if you're lucky. If you're a picture book author you get five.
Amra (43:38)
Yes, because of the high cost of illustrations, the high cost of production of color printing. So, you know, like you are getting, you are the one who has generated the content that is being used to sell that is powering this whole industry. And yet we are the ones who are completely at the bottom. And at least to the joy with being an indie author and your own small press is that yes, I have to pay the costs. have to pay for my software that I use for the production. have to pay for the editing. I have to pay for all of these things. And for promotion and advertising, like I'm going to some book fairs this year, I have to pay for the tables to be at those book fairs to be able to try and sell the books. But at least I also have the joy.
Kellie Nissen (44:24)
Yes.
Amra (44:28)
At least I also have the intellectual property that I can maximize and that I can do into various formats because you my last book that I sold traditionally I attempted negotiating. I did not get anywhere.
Kellie Nissen (44:28)
Yes.
No, and no you don't they're pretty well locked in like that's you know and the thing is to Like there is the word like you know if you if you do go down the traditional publishing route and you are Lucky and I'm gonna say it's luck right luck of the drawl. It's if you are lucky enough to be offered a contract You know word is all you know try to negotiate terms
Amra (44:46)
Yeah.
I agree.
Kellie Nissen (45:08)
they're not going to because the thing is, unless there is something completely unreasonable there, is that they have 4,000 other manuscripts that they can turn to instead of yours. I think it's your decision. It's like, do I want to go down this path or do I not? I mean, even though I am all about independent...like indie authors and self-publishing and author publishing and all that sort of thing. I also do believe that if you want to pursue a traditional contract you absolutely should as well. And there are plenty of authors out there that I know that do both. that some authors that have self-published a large number of books.
but they're still submitting to traditional publishers and maybe they get a contract and as somebody, I can't remember who it was now, otherwise I'd name drop, but somebody pointed out the other day that yes, you know, I love self-publishing, I love the control that it gives me and all that sort of thing and I love being able to make those decisions. It's a business, right? It's not just a hobby. But...
I'm still pursuing the traditional contract because that is at the moment with the way the perception is that is the only way that I'm going to be able to make a name for myself. Well not necessarily the only way but it is probably the quickest way so if I've got one book published by a traditional publisher under my name and it's promoted and it's out there
Sadly, it's almost like instant credibility as well. And I think we have to be realistic about that as well. And some publishers are fantastic. Some traditional publishers, brilliant to work for, they do the right thing and that sort of thing. there's a few of them that really, really look after their authors and their illustrators as well. you know, we're not here to say,
Amra (46:49)
Yeah, look, I am beneficial. Yeah.
Kellie Nissen (47:11)
down with traditional publishers. What I want to say is, you know what, stop judging people on how they've been published and judge the book because there's some rubbish out there that's been traditionally published and there is rubbish that's self-published and vice versa. yeah. Let the readers decide. Don't tell them what they should and shouldn't be reading.
Amra (47:20)
And readers decide at the end of the day.
And I mean, I...
What you're talking about, like I did have the benefit of the traditional publishing industry and it did give me a great apprenticeship. I had really supportive editors with my short stories and building up my writing and then with my first few books. so transitioning into this part of my life has been much more seamless because I had the benefit of those skills. even I noticed the last few blurbs I wrote, they were the blurbs that were being used almost verbatim by the
Kellie Nissen (47:40)
you
Amra (48:00)
publishers and so I'm like ⁓ I'm figuring this out I'm learning the lingo I'm learning how to lean in and this is the issue when when we are starting this you being a small business as you said it is being a small business.
Kellie Nissen (48:16)
Yes, and that's how you need to treat it. I was speaking to Maggie Walters not that long ago on the podcast. think hers is going to air just before yours, I think. Yeah, ⁓ she's fantastic. Or has it already gone to air? Might have already gone to air. I can't remember. I'm up to like number 22 or something now. But Maggie was saying that, you know, this is her business. This is, this is.
Amra (48:28)
⁓ I'll listen to it.
Kellie Nissen (48:42)
what she does and as an indie author she treats this as her business. you know she does the marketing, she has allocated time each day to writing, allocated time to promo, to dealing with the other stakeholders in her business. So I think it all boils down to whether or not you can devote that time.
to making this your business or whether it's just okay I've got this book I've self-published it I'm really proud of it I have time to go and sell it at markets once every two months I'll do a little bit of social media promotion I mean you you get back what you give in or what you put
Amra (49:21)
and out.
So the thing is you might not be able to do everything all at once. this is the first year that I'm really stepping into the direct sales and going to the markets and the book fairs. I did one market before and I was like, never again. But now I'm like, no, it's about meeting people. It's about making those connections. It's about, you know, just sort of being open to, as opposed to thinking, is this worth the time versus effort?
Kellie Nissen (49:36)
Ha
Amra (49:48)
And so you can't do everything all at the one time. You have to slowly ease into it and figure it out. And the great thing is, as each book comes out, that's a new opportunity to promote and you can still promote the backlist and that is promoting your backlist. it's a constant process of learning and the industry is constantly changing. There's always new things to learn and new things to try and to experience. And that's what I love about it. I think as teachers, that
Kellie Nissen (50:08)
Absolutely.
Amra (50:16)
the one thing about being a teacher we can never rest on our laurels it was always like learn learn learn ⁓
Kellie Nissen (50:20)
Yes, and you learn something and you implement it and then the next government comes in and go, now we're to change that.
Amra (50:30)
And then when you're long enough, you're there long enough, you're like, a deja vu. I remember this being called this. And now it's a new name. Someone read an old journal, did they?
Kellie Nissen (50:35)
25 years, I had plenty of
Yes, yeah and you know the people that come out, the new teachers, I work with pre-service teachers and some of them will say, you know we came up with this concept. I'm like, did you now? Yes, Yes, exactly.
Amra (50:54)
No you didn't my darling, no you didn't. Just like there's no story that hasn't been told, there's no
teaching model that hasn't been used. No.
Kellie Nissen (51:02)
Yeah, absolutely. you know, and I think just embracing that whole, you know, as humans, we are lifelong learners. Like you don't stop. And I think the minute you start going, yeah, I know everything about this industry. You're going to fail. You know, in the story, there's always, it's for us. Yeah, but it's also frustrating. It's just like, ⁓ you know, I've just I've just nailed how to do this. And now the system is.
Amra (51:10)
We are.
No, that's what I actually love about it the most.
Kellie Nissen (51:29)
changed it, why? But I think your mindset is fantastic. It's like, I'm excited about learning this new thing and I'm going to embrace it.
Amra (51:36)
I love it. I'm constantly, my problem is actually going for too many shiny things at once. And so, and then I've wasted so much time on shiny things that just was not for me. But I kind of had to go through that because now I'm like, is this the shiny thing for me? Let's do a little bit of a think beforehand. You know, let's not jump into that. Like I launched into the Shopify store.
Kellie Nissen (51:47)
Yes.
Amra (52:02)
That was not for me. So now I'm on payhip, which is better because it's just a fee deducted when a sale goes through. Whereas Shopify is constant, you have to...
Kellie Nissen (52:11)
Yes, okay. It's a subscription, isn't it?
Amra (52:17)
It's a subscription monthly and then you're supposed to get all these add-ons and all these things and set up this e-commerce stuff. And I don't like the pressure of that. I realized my approach is creation and release and building. I'm not into, yeah, so I like the change, I like the learning, but there is sometimes too much of it.
Kellie Nissen (52:42)
Yes, yes, I think it's a bit of self-control. You know what I want to say too, a couple of minutes ago you went straight into teacher mode. Yes, I can see like the just you leant forward to the camera and you just I'm like my god there's the teacher. If I didn't know you were a teacher it's like how do I know somebody's a teacher without them telling me they're a teacher. So yeah, love it.
Amra (52:46)
Yeah, I'm learning. I'm learning! Well, I just... Yeah. Did I?
Yeah, yeah, the face, the face does so much work, like 90 % of everything that you do in the classroom is the face. Because you know, you just the looks and the the and the body language and yes, it's wonderful though, because applying it in the rest of your life.
Kellie Nissen (53:11)
You can never lose it. There you go.
The tincture
Amra (53:28)
⁓ you know, like every once in a while my daughter is like, my God, your tone. And I'm like, well, they provoked it and they got it. You know, so it's like, don't. Yeah. Yeah. Don't push the boundary. As soon as you push, you will, you will get it back. Yeah. But I think that's
Kellie Nissen (53:40)
Yes, yep. Just like my daughter.
Yeah, yeah, Yes, no, I love it.
Amra (53:51)
Yeah, and that's the thing about teaching. One thing that I've learned through teaching is I am not afraid to ask questions. I'm not afraid to ask for clarification because we are constantly put in situations where we don't know what the hell is going on. And so I don't care anymore. In every first of my life, I was having a conversation with someone at an academic conference. So I felt very out of place. I was doing my first in-person presentation in my identity as an academic, know, having done my doing my PhD.
Kellie Nissen (54:18)
you
Amra (54:20)
and they were talking about Jamaican people immigrating to Australia, not to Australia sorry to England and there was this term that they used. I can't remember something Wilson or Walter and I was like ⁓ what is that and then they explained ⁓ my god I care I am not here to pretend and to just laugh along I want to be part of the conversation I want to know because that's something that I will now know you know for future yeah.
Kellie Nissen (54:38)
Thank you.
Mm-hmm. Mm. Yes.
There is that whole attitude too as a teacher that you are the all-knowing as well and that, you know, you never admit to students that you don't know something and I'm just like,
Amra (54:50)
Yeah. and I'm rubbish.
Kellie Nissen (54:58)
That's like teaching 101
Amra (54:59)
I never play that game.
Kellie Nissen (55:00)
for pre-service teachers is if you don't know something, you tell the students you don't know and that you're gonna find out together. And it's the same with me, with what I do now, is like I'll have a client who said to me, look, what about this? And I'll be like, actually I don't know, but I'm gonna find out for you, or let's go now and check this website and just see if we can unpack it together. Because you're gonna tie yourself up in knots if you,
Amra (55:06)
Yes. Yes.
Kellie Nissen (55:27)
don't admit to not knowing something when you know and maybe you should but you don't and that's fine.
Amra (55:33)
leave in it and I just also like at this time
with everything, you know, evolving so much in technology, like you are constantly learning and coming across things. And I think ⁓ it's quite ludicrous to try and present that I am everything. And just, you know, what you said in terms of where we're lifelong learners, I feel like I'm constantly adding new things to my, you know, identity. Like now we're both podcasters. That's our new identity.
Kellie Nissen (55:58)
Yes.
Amra (56:02)
But you know, I'm not here to be fancy as I admitted at the beginning. I could not remember how to get onto my platform.
Kellie Nissen (56:08)
⁓ yeah, absolutely. it's just, know,
in my podcast when I stuff up, I've started leaving it in there. was like, know what, the thing is, if you can't laugh at yourself for something, know, life's pretty dull as it is.
Amra (56:16)
Yeah, I don't care.
Well, there's that. And
then also, I don't know, do you listen to Joanna Penn, the Creative Penn podcast?
Kellie Nissen (56:31)
Yes, because you put me onto that.
Amra (56:33)
my God.
So her last podcast, it just opened my eyes where she was like, in this day and age of all this AI, people actually crave human where you're speaking like a human and you're making a mistake and you know that they could tell that it's an actual human being doing this and not something that's generated. And so that has also just really changed my view where I'm like, yes.
I am human and I need to lean into that and not put on that, you know, fake perfection persona and actually lean into that. Yeah, that was an interesting moment today when I couldn't remember things and that's just my life.
Kellie Nissen (57:12)
Absolutely, so for everybody out there who's listening, watching, whatever, we're real. We are not, because you can, I've played with software that can actually generate like ⁓ AI.
Amra (57:18)
Yes.
Kellie Nissen (57:27)
podcasts where it's you put in a little bit of content and it creates this entire podcast with and it's only American voices at the moment so that's the other reason why you know we're real is you know it's created this entire podcast conversation between two AI bots and it's just like my god that's so cool it's like yes but no because it's still not human and yes so
Amra (57:43)
Good. No. And anyone who's watching this might have noticed I did write questions that I sent to Kelly, but what I love, I have asked none of them because what I love is the conversation and where it goes and the energy.
Kellie Nissen (57:56)
You did and you've asked none of them.
So let me show you, there we go. I printed them off and I only put little notes because I'm like, God, know, what if, what if Amara asked me a question and my mind just goes like that. And I had them here and I know you said you weren't going to use them, but I put them here anyway, just in case. And then about halfway through, just put them over on the side and went, yes, it's not going the way she said it would, but that's fine.
Amra (58:11)
I think I'm gonna start actually just sending the bio through and just bullet points and saying this is the bio, just proofread that and these are the bullet points of what I want the conversation to be. But I don't share questions because I feel a bit bad if people are spending time preparing for the questions and I just love the flow. I love just letting it, know, wherever the moment takes us.
Kellie Nissen (58:32)
Yeah, so full disclosure, I did pre-prepare, right? But it was at 10 to 2 when I went, ⁓ my god, I've got to get on this. my god, where are the questions? Where are they?
Amra (59:06)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was like me last night going, I better send you a reminder and then sent the wrong time.
Kellie Nissen (59:12)
Yes, and then me self-doubting and going, I'm sure it was two o'clock that it was in my car. What? She said it's nine o'clock.
Amra (59:17)
And it was in my diaries two o'clock. It was just me not looking at the next day and going, yeah, I'm pretty sure it's that time.
Kellie Nissen (59:22)
Yeah, yeah, never trust yourself. If you've got a teacher's brain, don't trust it because we remember.
Amra (59:29)
No, but we don't pretend. That's important. No, exactly.
Kellie Nissen (59:32)
No, and we don't care either. That's it. That's us.
Amra (59:35)
Well, thank you so much for coming on, having this great conversation, for having me on your podcast too. I really appreciate it. And just also for being another person that I know in this new world that I'm entering, that I can sort of touch base with and yeah, have a yarn with because it can be a bit of a lonely space because we're out there a little bit, aren't we?
Kellie Nissen (59:53)
you 100%. It can be. I think, because I know when you came on my podcast and we talked before I started recording for longer than I think the podcast went for, because we both discovered we were both teachers. And then it was like, there's a free for all. So yeah, but no, thank you. has been fantastic. It's like, you know, and I can't even remember how we connected in the first place, but I'm so glad we did.
Amra (1:00:09)
Yeah. It's on. somebody actually told me that you were looking for guests and that I should contact you. So that's the other thing that's really lovely about social media. This is someone I don't actually know in real life, but we've been following each other and then, you know, people just reach out and they're like, maybe you should try this or maybe look at this. And that's also the joyous thing where, you know, these online connections are also quite meaningful.
Kellie Nissen (1:00:26)
That's right. ⁓
Yes, yeah, absolutely. So it's just, know, put yourself out there, be open and say yes to stuff that scares the bejesus out of you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. It was all sort of. Thank you, Amara.
Amra (1:00:54)
Yes.
Because eventually it won't. Eventually it won't.
Yeah. Okay.
Well, thank you so much.
Today I'm joined by Kelly Nielsen, who's an author, coach, educator, and the founder of Just Write Words. She spent over two decades as a teacher working closely with language learning and the messy realities of how people actually develop confidence in their writing. These days, she brings that experience into her work as an author coach, supporting writers who want more than vague encouragement. Through Just Write Words, Kelly works with emerging and indie authors at all stages from idea to refinement and publication. There's a strong focus on clarity, craft and sustainable creative practice. And she's deeply invested in the India community, advocating for writers. And that's actually how we met because I appeared on your podcast as an indie author. So thank you for that. So in this conversation, we're to talk about shifting from teaching to running a small creative business, the skills that we bring as educators, because we're both high school teachers. ⁓Primary School and working one-on-one with writers. So welcome Kelly, thank you so much for coming on.
Kellie Nissen (01:06)
Thank you, Amra. has been a journey in the making with trying to actually find a time that we were both available, right? So, yeah.
Amra (01:14)
I know. And then the best part is we actually are available and we've got it on the books. And then my perimenopausal brain couldn't remember how to log into my software, how to start my software, how to record. So that was also a fun journey for a few minutes there.
Kellie Nissen (01:33)
It was, but we made it. We made it.
Amra (01:36)
a lovely adrenaline rush just kind of getting me going, getting me moving this afternoon. So I think I wanted to start with, you know, what is an actual author coach and how did you sort of get into this side of your, this business that you started?
Kellie Nissen (01:53)
Wow, that's like a really long story, I'm gonna try to condense it. So to start with, an author coach is a coach, essentially, who works with authors or people who have a book idea inside them and need help bringing that book out into the world. whether they've just got like a little bit of an idea and they need help.
like or confidence or motivation sometimes just refining that idea or knowing how to structure the book or whatever or maybe like some of my clients they've already written their book and they're like I don't know if this is good enough I know there are gaps I'm sick of looking at it blah blah blah so I step in at any stage really and just provide that encouragement and the feedback and the motivation to keep going and to get it out there.
Second part of the question, how did I get into it? So as you mentioned, I was a teacher for what I now refer to as longer than a life sentence, because I was teaching for 26 years. Don't get me wrong, I loved the actual teaching side of things. It was the other stuff that was sort of ceased to be enjoyable after a while.
I spent a number of years towards the end of my career thinking, I don't want to do this anymore, but I don't know how to get out. you would know this teachers have this thing where we we've been doing it for so long. We think we've got no other skills. Whereas when you're a teacher, you have all of these skills that you can apply to almost every career, except perhaps brain surgery and rocket science. But so I spent a lot of time sort of thinking, you know, want to get out, but, ⁓ you know, it's a risk factor and I've got a permanent position and blah, blah, blah. And eventually, I just came to the realization after I'd had breast cancer and thought life is too short to be doing what I don't want to be doing anymore. I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. So I went in for a meeting. with my principal so I'd sort of started my business as an editor and was just sort of doing it in between, you know, in the cracks and I went in for a meeting with my principal, the yearly what do want to do now meeting and he said to me, he's like well for next year he said I either need you to come back full time because I was working part time or we'll have to look at a transfer and
I'm just like, you know, I knew it was coming. been at that school for like seven or eight years anyway. And I just went, I opened my mouth and I think I surprised both of us. just said, you know, I think I might just resign. And I think my, in my head, I was just like, my God, what are you saying? Shut up, shut up, shut up. But those words came out of my mouth and he looked at me and he's like, and this was in July. Okay. And he's like, when at the end of the year? I went, no, now.
And I walked out after then negotiating that I'd stay for an extra month. I walked out and went to a colleague and went, I've just quit. that. yeah, so that was, sort of fell into working the business full time that way and had started like editing. So I was just, I was copy editing and proofreading.
And the more I worked with people, the more I actually realised that I could use my teaching skills to coach because I really, I've essentially gone from teaching to teaching and, but being able to choose who I teach, if that makes sense. Yeah.
Amra (05:22)
I mean, your own story, was just listening to your story. going, you that's the thing. So many of us who are teachers, we love the classroom, we love the kids in it. But outside of it, we just feel like cogs in a machine that are just being ground. And, you know, like we don't get choice. They give us whatever they want in terms of classes. Like I'm working four days a week. They give me whatever day they want in terms of my day off. I don't even put a preference anymore because I'm like, that's actually worse to put a preference and have it ignored.
Kellie Nissen (05:34)
Yes.
Amra (05:50)
And that's what sort of wears you down. as you were talking, I was like, my gosh, I'm having a lot of those same thoughts and feelings where, and this is also, I like to talk to people in this podcast who have interesting stories, but also from my own professional learning. And so you are kind of my inspiration in terms of the way to transition out of the teaching profession and into something that's
Kellie Nissen (05:58)
Mmm.
Amra (06:18)
sort of matches our interests a little bit more. And there was just something else I was thinking about and I thought, did you want to talk about it in terms of. There are so many emerging writers who really want to tell a story and have a book they want to write and tell. And there are so many dodgy operators out there who take advantage of them, who rip them off, who, you know, these poor people think that they're getting a publishing contract and they're like, I'm getting a publishing contract and then they want me to pay $5,000. And we're like, sweetie, no. If they want you to pay, that means that they are providing you the service.
Kellie Nissen (06:33)
Amen.
Amra (06:54)
So is that something that also you're sort of seeing and you're, you know, seeing your clients go through?
Kellie Nissen (06:59)
Yeah,
I do. see a lot of it and it makes me so cranky. So I, if I've got a client, I always say, and if they are putting their work out there to submit to traditional publishers, I will always say to them, let me know who you're submitting to. You know, I can give you a hand to write you cover letter, blah.
So if they come back to me and they're like, ⁓ you know, I just noticed this group, they came up this publisher. I'm going to submit to them. I'm just upfront. I'm like, no, that's a vanity publisher. Don't do it. Just just don't do it. There are a couple of publishers out there who I won't name, even though I'd like to, who go under the banner of being traditional, but are not operating ethically.
Amra (07:32)
Mm.
Kellie Nissen (07:46)
I have said to a couple of clients if you go with them, I will not help you so I'm Like what you see is what you get basically. I'm not I don't beat around the bush If I don't like something I'll Say I'll say that and I'll say why? But yeah when it comes to paying for to get your book published there's good and there's evil
with that. we do have our hybrid publishers as well who and some of the hybrid publishers are fantastic. They are legitimate. It's sometimes it's called author supported publishing as well and they're absolutely some of them are absolutely legitimate. You just need to do your homework. So you know if something
Amra (08:23)
Yes.
Kellie Nissen (08:33)
seems a bit dodgy if you get headhunted by a publisher saying, you know I've seen your work online and da da da da and I love what you do and I'd really, it's, publishers don't do that. Okay, they have enough people submitting work to them. They don't need to, if they're legitimate, they don't need to go hunting for you. So some of it,
Amra (08:50)
No.
Kellie Nissen (08:59)
comes down to, dare I say, common sense. ⁓
Amra (09:03)
Yeah, I think people don't understand because if it is someone that you are paying to provide service to you, then it is your copyright and you get every bit of the royalty. Whatever is sold is your money. But if you are paying for a service and then they are saying, oh, and we get the royalty or we get a percentage of the royalty. No, no.
Kellie Nissen (09:12)
Yes.
Amra (09:29)
because when you are traditionally published, they buy the rights from you and you get a royalty because they have invested and they are producing the book. Therefore you get, you know, a percentage, a 10 % of whatever the cost is. But when we are publishing ourselves and we put a book for sale, whatever the difference is between the sale price and our production costs, That profit is all ours.
Kellie Nissen (09:56)
Yep, absolutely, absolutely. I think too, you, you know, if you've come across, like if you've had an offer from a publisher, whether they're traditional or hybrid or whatever, or it could be a self-publishing operation like the one that I run, you look at the contract and you go through it with a fine-tooth comb. And there are organizations out there, who can actually, for a fee, and it's 100 % worth it, actually look over your contract and offer suggestions for improvement or say whether it's legitimate. So the Australian Society of Authors, for example, offer that service. Alex Adset offers that service as well as part of her agency. So there are people out there who do it, but don't, I think,
I think a lot of these ⁓ so-called publishers, prey on people's emotion. You've put your heart and soul into writing something and to have somebody say, love this, I'd like to publish it, instantly you're like, my God, it's all been worth it. And I think any shred of common sense that you might otherwise possess flies straight out the window. So take a step back. breathe, look at it, get somebody else to look at it for you.
Amra (11:14)
Yeah, and that's the thing. Most of us, we've dreamed about this all of our lives. And so, you know, like I remember for me when I actually got the call, when we used to get the calls. And so for me, it was the call that I had been shortlisted for the Victorian Premier's Prize for an unpublished manuscript. And so it was like, and that was a very, and still is a very prestigious prize that gets a lot of publicity and a lot of mention.
Kellie Nissen (11:19)
Yes.
Amra (11:41)
amazing authors were being published as well as moi. So modest, don't I? I like also that I don't really have much hair, I'm like, I'm going to do it. I'm going to do the flick. I will make that effort. will make the flick work. That's right.
Kellie Nissen (11:45)
I love this.
Amra (11:59)
Yeah, so you know we all hunger for that and that's something also that I'm noticing in the indie world because I was traditionally published and I had a lot of those accolades but also I put in the work. I had a lot of short stories published, won a lot of prizes, so really built my CV over you know a decade, slow drip and then worked my way up to a publishing contract and then all the other bells and whistles that come with it.
So I still see it a lot with indie authors who are sort of searching for that validation. And the amazing thing is some of them are earning so much more money than I ever earned as a traditionally published author.
Kellie Nissen (12:33)
If you do the right thing and you do your promotion and you put in the legwork and that sort of thing, you can 100 % earn back what you've spent and then start making a profit. You don't need to take shortcuts to get there. But I think as you would well know that it's the legwork afterwards and the ability to sell yourself and sell your book that is really important to be able to do. do that really as an indie author. No!
Amra (13:12)
Yes.
And the promotion doesn't end. That's the thing. Like it is a constant process, but it's also a wonderful thing that you can do because when you are traditionally published, they give you six weeks of a publicist sort of giving you some attention and something happening, if you're lucky. And then you just kind of sink to the bottom with them. They've moved on to another book, another author. Whereas when you are running it as your own small business, every book that
Kellie Nissen (13:28)
if you're lucky.
Amra (13:41)
you do is you promoting and getting it out there. ⁓ What are some of the things that you're seeing that you think that emerging authors need a little bit more thinking about? I we talked about the research and understanding the publishing industry and understanding what they're getting into.
Kellie Nissen (13:42)
So I don't know if you're talking about like emerging as in still writing their book, yeah. So thinking about, there's so many things to think about. I think just knowing.
about. Knowing that it's not just your one draft and it's going to be perfect. Knowing that you need to redraft multiple times with your target audience in mind as well and your message. If you're writing fiction you have your story question. You know everything that you do needs to feed into that. You want at the end of the day you want what you've written to be the best it possibly can be.
But in saying that too, think you also need to, people need to remember, and a lot of new authors and some really established ones still struggle with this, is that you don't need to action every single bit of feedback that you get. And that was probably, you know, when I was, when I'd started to write, seriously,
Amra (14:57)
Yes.
Kellie Nissen (15:03)
I fell into that trap. like, no, I know nothing. I've got Symposter Syndrome, blah, blah. I've got these, you know, a couple of great mentors. And I'll just, you know, every time they say something, I'm going to make that change. And somebody says that I'm going to make that change. And what I ended up with was a manuscript that I didn't even recognize as my voice. It wasn't my story. And it was a piece of rubbish basically, because I tried to shove in.
all of the feedback and I lost it in the process. I think with feedback is, even if it's from a professional editor, and I say this to my clients all the time, just because I've made this suggestion or made this comment does not mean that it is right for you unless it's a grammatical thing. And even then, rules are made to be broken. So...
Amra (15:31)
Yeah. is. if you can justify it, if there's a reason for it.
Kellie Nissen (15:54)
If you can justify it, like particularly in poetry as well, but you know, if you look at a piece of feedback and you're like, you know, that doesn't really sit what I'm, know, serve what I'm trying to say, it doesn't really sound like me or whatever, don't put it in because at the end of the day, the name on the front of the book is yours and this is your story, you know, so.
Amra (15:57)
Yeah. That comes from confidence in terms of ⁓ when you're writing and you're starting out, you don't quite know. The other thing that I've seen is, especially when I run memoir writing workshops, a lot of women about our age are writing about traumatic experience that they've gone through, a lot of sexual abuse. And so where they go to a writing group and they're sharing something very personal, very traumatic that happened to them, and a lot of people don't
Kellie Nissen (16:19)
100. on you
Amra (16:45)
like trauma, they don't want to be confronted with it, they find it uncomfortable and so you know had to have conversations with them about really find the safe space, find that safe person ⁓ who can support you in that writing process and be there for you because you know especially with memoir if you're writing something so personal it really can
Kellie Nissen (16:57)
it.
Mmm.
Amra (17:07)
gonna break you a little bit. But also just when you talk about feedback, my memoir that I ⁓ ended up getting traditionally published, but it was a really long protracted journey with my agent submitting her giving up, me taking over. But I had Alice Pung as my mentor and I originally wrote it in two points of view, my point of view and my mum's point of view. And I really liked that structure and she was like, yeah, this is great. And then I submitted it to my
Kellie Nissen (17:09)
Yes.
Amra (17:37)
agent and my agent was like, no, no, no, we need to make it more first person to make it more commercial. And I remember having this conversation with Alice where she was like, there was nothing wrong with your book. Your book was great as it is. And that's the thing, you know, there are all these different aspects that come into it. So in that situation, it was about my agent wanting something that was more commercial, that had more saleability. But in the end, it wasn't for her. She wasn't the person who sold it.
Kellie Nissen (17:48)
Yes.
Amra (18:05)
that change. I'm still happy with the book that I did and the changes that I made, but yeah, it was a very different book in terms of your point of view that I had. So.
Kellie Nissen (18:15)
Yeah, yeah absolutely and you do you need to find I think and it is a confidence thing as well but I think you need to as an author you need to back yourself and if you're working with somebody who doesn't align with your vision, they're not the right person. And I've said this to past previous clients, it's like, have a very strong opinion about XYZ that you're writing about.
I'm not sure that I'm the best person to edit this for you. That being said, you're talking about trauma before I, a while ago, got a little bit of a reputation for being the editor who, I will edit and work with people who writing trauma based things. There's a lot of editors who can't for their own personal reasons and that is fine as well and they're open about that and honest as well, whereas
I don't know whether it's my teaching background and the number of mandatory reports that I had to put in, but I have this weird uncanny ability to be able to separate the job, but still be compassionate, but separate that from my own internal, you know, don't take that on board. can edit it, you know, objectively as well. So.
Amra (19:28)
Yes.
Kellie Nissen (19:31)
But it is important and it is hard when you're writing trauma-based stuff. It's hard on the author and it's hard on the people who are reading it as well, but it's so important to write about that sort of thing.
Amra (19:35)
Yeah, yeah. because there are stories we need out there, like because it's about, like I recently read a book, actually have I got it here, All Things in Nature Merely Grow, about an author, this is one of her books, Yi Yun Li, yeah, about losing two sons to suicide and...
Kellie Nissen (19:47)
Yeah.
Amra (20:04)
my stepfather committed suicide and this book just completely like I had an internal shift where something really opened up and things made sense for me and I had this great sense of
Kellie Nissen (20:14)
Yeah.
Amra (20:18)
just you know relief and and realization and that's why we need these books we need them to process our own emotions and our own difficult times and they are lighting that path for us as we go yeah
Kellie Nissen (20:18)
Yes.
I think too, there's a lot of authors who, and I've worked with a lot of people who've gone, oh, I've got this story, but nobody will be interested. So that was me initially with my breast cancer memoir. I'm just like, oh my God, do you know how many books there are out there about breast cancer, memoirs about breast cancer? There's literally thousands of them. I'm like, who am I to think I can write one that'll add to that?
story wouldn't leave me alone but what I'm saying is that you know they're not everybody, your book is not going to be for everybody, your story is not going to be for everybody but it will be for somebody and that somebody you may well change the course of their life just by them seeing themselves in what you've written and knowing that they're not alone.
Amra (21:18)
Yes.
Kellie Nissen (21:23)
So you know what, you're compelled to tell your story, tell it.
Amra (21:29)
Yes, because it's that, I don't know, you have to lead with that heart and that passion because that's what carries us through when we're reading. That's what we really, really feel. So in terms of the business and the book coaching, what have been some of the things about being a business, small business person and entering this new world? What have been some of the challenges or
Kellie Nissen (21:35)
Yes.
Amra (21:55)
some of the things that you wish you'd known.
Kellie Nissen (21:57)
How long have we got?
Amra (21:58)
⁓ let's
Kellie Nissen (21:59)
Challenges man so I Think about like Marketing your own business and putting yourself out there and you know promotion and there is that you know It's an issue for indie authors as well marketing promotion distribution But as as a small business owner, there are a lot of people who do what I do basically and
You know some people are great, some people are not so great but there are a lot of people out there on social media, know long linked in Instagram talking about you know I'm an author coach and this is why you should work for me, work with me. With me I still struggle with that whole marketing. I've got a coach at the moment saying put yourself out there, do this. I don't like.
don't cold calling, don't like connecting with people and instantly selling, even though I know it's something that you have to do. But I'm also in the very fortunate position that when I started the business, I already had a lot of contacts because I I sort of started circulating in the author world.
⁓ author and creative world before I started circulating in the small business world. And so I had a lot of contacts. had people who knew what I did. And then I also, my first business coach encouraged me to join a business networking group and that's where I got my first clients and sort of built from there. So I've always, always, and I'm gonna shoot myself in the foot here, I hope I don't jinx myself, but I've always gained new clients through
people I know and people I know who know other people who refer. Right. And I've I do a little bit of promotion on LinkedIn and Instagram and I have gained clients, a couple of clients through LinkedIn as well. But the bulk of my clients come from people I know and from referrals. So I've been lucky and I always think, God, you know, if my clients dry up.
Amra (23:43)
Yes. Yeah.
Kellie Nissen (24:02)
And every now and then you sort of think it's going to happen and then all of a sudden, you know, I get this sort of influx. But I'm just like, I wouldn't even know how to start marketing my business. It's like, what are you doing? I don't know. It's like, I've got to go out there and sell myself. I've got to start running Facebook ads. You know, so I think that is challenging in itself in that it's a constant concern when you're working freelancing in small business, being a sole trader.
Where is my next client coming from? What if I'm just about finished this job that I'm working on? What if I don't get anybody else? Who am I going to get to? It's always that, and that's a challenge. And sort of trusting the process and overcoming that challenge is, overcoming that self-doubt is probably the biggest challenge there is. The other challenge is pricing.
Amra (24:50)
Yes.
Kellie Nissen (24:50)
As like, my, know, how much is too much? I wanna get clients, I don't wanna scare them off. But I've also, I also don't wanna work for a dollar an hour, you know? Finding, yeah, finding clients that actually value your time and your expertise. And when you say, okay, this is how much that will cost, they go, that's great, thank you. Rather than,
Amra (24:59)
Yes, yeah, because these are time consuming things. ⁓
Kellie Nissen (25:16)
that's so expensive. Okay, well, what was your budget? And they give you like 10 % of what you said is like, yeah, you know, please go to Fiverr. But it is like I spent a lot of the first five years even and even now I struggle with it, but just self doubting my pricing and then allowing myself to be beaten down. in price because I'm just like, you know, I'll give you this price and because I'm worried you won't pay the full price and then resenting it. That's the worst thing, you know.
Amra (25:45)
Yes, because I've that too, where I've done gigs for less and they've just been angry and thinking because you know want to do these things where you're like okay this is the best me and this is the moment and you know we're all about wanting to just like get things out of life. Yeah.
Kellie Nissen (25:53)
Yes!
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I know and it's it is and it's not it's not anger at the client because you made this bitch self Right. It's just why did I do that? Yes, yeah mind you I do there are a couple of people who circulate in my world and who won't be after a while who I've given a little bit and they take advantage of it and it's like ⁓ you know
Amra (26:12)
Yes, yes, you're the one who went home. I'm going to accept that.
Kellie Nissen (26:31)
love the free stuff but don't want your paid stuff. know and that's this is about me looking at these people and going you are not my you are not my people that's it you know you've got to draw the line somewhere and it sounds awful and there's going to be people out there going my god she's such a terrible person and blah blah blah but too bad you're not my people either.
Amra (26:35)
Yeah, that's lesson I've learned too. But also I've learned the hard way, if someone gets something for nothing, they put no value on it. At all. at all. Whereas as soon as you attach a monetary price, so even if I'm giving a discount in terms of, you know, local rates, it's like, well, this is my usual race, but because I am doing it this because it's like, you need to know that I am lowering and that that is why. ⁓ But yeah, it's a different mindset as we go into a business mode, but then we've got that
Kellie Nissen (27:11)
yep.
Amra (27:29)
bleeding hard and we're battling all of those internal emotions.
Kellie Nissen (27:32)
Yes, and some of it is that teacher thing too, I think, is that you're like as a career teacher, we're here to nurture and we're here to help and that's why we're in this industry and sometimes I look at it like, why did I go from this helping nurturing industry into another one? You know, but you know, it's what we do but it also allows us, you know, to
Amra (27:37)
Yes.
Kellie Nissen (27:58)
allow ourselves to be taken advantage of in that way.
Amra (28:02)
Even I just saw, I don't know if you know who Holden Shepherd is.
Young adult author from Perth, his book Invisible Boys was made into a Stan TV show. So he's doing very well and he just posted about because he's gay and so he writes characters who are gay in own voice as stories. And as Pride Month is, you know, at some point coming up, people are reaching out and expecting him to work for free.
Kellie Nissen (28:18)
there is that issue, yes.
Amra (28:29)
there and he was very angry about that and I was like that's the thing you don't ask a plumber you don't know hey I know you've got a mortgage and you've got this skill and this knowledge but I'm gonna call you and ask you to work for free just because I don't value you.
Kellie Nissen (28:35)
Yes. I think there is something in the I don't value but I think there's also a misconception there in the general public that and I think the more we say this hopefully it will change but that misconception is you're an author your book retails for $32.99 you must be rich you know you must get all that money so particularly well
Amra (29:06)
No.
Kellie Nissen (29:10)
Actually, I'm not even going say particularly. All authors, just let it be known, authors, most authors have to work a full-time job in order to support their writing career. ⁓ Yes, we all do. It's like I don't even want to think about what money I have not made from my books. But there is that thing and you hear this is a very, very common complaint amongst ⁓ children's authors who do school visits.
Amra (29:20)
Yeah, I do.
Kellie Nissen (29:38)
is the schools say, hey, we'd love you to come along to book week, and then when the author goes, okay, it'll cost this much, they're like, ⁓ you charge. It's like, well, I don't do this for the love of it. ⁓ you know, we thought, you know, make money from, it's like, authors make money, their money comes, their breadwinning comes from doing public appearances and being paid for those.
Amra (29:58)
Yes, from all the other things. Yeah, because most of my income was coming from freelance writing and doing workshops. have not. Yeah, yeah. And it gets in. Like I've been invited to like, you know, festivals and I'm like, oh, I mean.
Kellie Nissen (30:05)
Yes, we work to support our writing habit.
Amra (30:17)
to a festival and then they're like it's for free I'm like darling that's a two-hour trip that you're wanting me to give up you know such a big chunk of my time where I could be doing 50 million other things including writing but you know anything else yeah it is it is a big problem
Kellie Nissen (30:21)
You know?
Yes. Yep.
And it's not only the travel time and the time spent there It's and possibly your accommodation that you might have to pay for yourself as well. It's not a holiday It's also the prep time because no Actually, it's one author I know who can do this but no other most authors can't go and give an hour-long presentation without at least 10 hours of prep behind that, you know and possibly more plus the angst and
Amra (30:44)
Yeah.
Kellie Nissen (31:04)
practice and that sort of thing. yeah I think I don't know whether it's a lack of value or a lack of actual comprehension as to how much authors do actually earn from their books. And I just I've been this has been gnawing away my head ever since we started talking about this but as an indie author and I hate this and I've actually lost a couple of friends over it. Kelly ⁓ I'd love to read your book.
Amra (31:16)
Yeah.
Kellie Nissen (31:30)
Can I have a copy? Have. Okay, so this book cost me X amount to publish. Yeah sure, I'm just gonna buy, because I published the Ring of Misfortune, I'm gonna buy a whole heap of copies and I'm just gonna give them away as gifts. No, okay, don't ask an indie author to gift you their book. That's it, you know. Have that as a respect. yeah.
Amra (31:50)
Yeah. Yeah. And it's also like we do review copies. you know, with my people, a review, but that's a digital copy, darling. ⁓ Not many of us, unless you've got a platform and you're actually going to be showing my physical copy in some way, ⁓ you know, like, yeah, there is a lot of, I had someone, I was a little bit cranky. I had someone,
Kellie Nissen (31:59)
huh.
Amra (32:15)
ask for a review copy and I was like great and then I saw them and I said you know can you post a review on Goodreads I don't have my Goodreads account.
Kellie Nissen (32:24)
Yep, okay that's you.
Amra (32:24)
But I gave you a review copy. That's what a review copy means. ⁓
Kellie Nissen (32:26)
Yes. Yeah, yeah. Where are you reviewing that, by the way? Yeah. Yes.
Amra (32:32)
But that's on me. That's on me. In future, if providing a review copy, you know, there has to be a Google form and a list of where will you be publicizing this review? So, you know, that's also a learning, a learning lesson for me.
Kellie Nissen (32:43)
Yeah. Yep, I know and it's important information like for new and also existing indie authors is there's so much like you don't know until you need to know and one of those things is okay well what do do after I finish the book? What do I do after I've got the book in my hand? What's involved next? It's not just going to get on know grow legs and sell itself.
if somebody and you will get on, they're rampant on Instagram at the moment is people who say, do promotion, I do this and I really love your book. get like a DM from somebody you don't know. you know, I want to promote it and I give them some followers and blah, blah, blah. Most of them are not legit. And there is a lot of stuff going around at the moment where they're finding your email and they're emailing you with.
Amra (33:25)
every day.
Kellie Nissen (33:37)
Under what looks like a legitimate email, it's all scams. I look at these things and I'm like, treat every email you receive as a scam until proven otherwise. And it's not innocent until proven guilty, it's actually where it is. Yes.
Amra (33:42)
Yes. My favorite one. No, unfortunately, because they're using AI to just write these emails that sound vaguely like they read the book. My favorite was there was a scam going around about spotlights and that they're doing it anyway, that it's like some US show hosts in America doing a talk show and they're calling me to do a talk show and.
Kellie Nissen (34:09)
I think.
Amra (34:14)
They called me on a hot day and I am not on my best on a hot day. All right? And they called me and I said...
And started, and I said, why are you asking me questions? If you are contacting me and you are a publicist for the show, then you should have all that information about me. You should know who I am and what my achievements are and why you are inviting me. And so I just chastised them and then hung up and blocked the number because I was like, just, but unfortunately people don't know, but I have actually lived in, you know, done the traditional publishing. have been on TV, you know, tiny little things and. done radio and all of this stuff. So I have some experience with some of these things that people don't. And you know, if someone is genuinely contacting you and they are doing that cold call where they're wanting to, you know, interview you or do something, they will know about you properly. It won't be just that vague stuff. You know, it'll be something very, very clear and very specific. And then you will question them and you will
You know? tease them out. Yeah. So one of the things that I also wanted to talk about is, you know, we've talked a lot about the issues for emerging writers in terms of understanding the publishing world and protecting themselves and doing the best that they can. But one of the things that we also discussed and I wanted to pick up a bit more is traditional publishing versus indie publishing and in Australia this really, you know, big sort of stigma.
And you started your podcast so that you would just interview indie authors to give them a platform and a voice and promote that. So I just wanted to hear your perspective about that a little bit.
Kellie Nissen (35:56)
Yeah, I, with actually from the suggestion of a writer friend of mine I went, you know what, my new personal hashtag is going to be Prod the Dragon. I, okay, so I'm self-published, but, and in the back of my mind I sort of thought, oh people are going to do this because they think it's sour grapes, right?
they're going to look at what I'm doing and go, know, she's just so great, blah, But I see it with a lot of people is there is this overarching archaic, pathetic perception that if you are self-published, it's because your work was not good enough to be traditionally published. And you see it across the board. So you see awards not accepting, no you can't submit your book for this award if you're self-published because you're not good enough for that. I got long listed and then short listed in the ACT Writers Awards a couple of years ago for my memoir and I came runner-up or second or whatever but my book was not compared against traditionally published authors they actually separated out those categories and I was like okay well why why do you have to have a separate I mean I should I'm really pleased that they did accept like indie indie books that's that's a huge leap compared to some awards but there was still that separation it was like you know your your your book is not good enough to be compared to somebody else so we'll give you your own little you know category and that sort of thing
And then, yeah, so you see it in awards, see it in distributors. They won't touch you if you're an independent publisher, independent author. You see it in competitions, awards, you see it in other podcasts. So what really got me going was seeing a couple of people in...various author platforms say, hey, I've got this podcast, really, you know, I'd love for people to submit your stuff, you know, send it to me, blah, blah, blah, blah. So one person was quite upfront and said, only traditionally published authors. And instantly I went, well, why? Why? Because I worked with a few people and know a few people that publish the most gorgeous.
picture books, they spend a lot of money, they hire top-notch illustrators and that sort of thing, but they're self-publishing and this is a choice, it's not because their work isn't good enough. But then the next podcast person came along and went, everybody's welcome. So I just put up, this is in a Facebook forum, I just put up a little comment saying, so what about self-published? no, no, not self-published. And so I pushed it.
I'm like well why? Why is that? I don't have enough time to do this. So what you're saying is that self-published is not good enough? Yeah well you know traditionally published you know they've done the work and the blah blah blah and the conversation went on like that and eventually I pushed it so far that this person blocked me. So I'm like well that's a win. I'm quite pleased with that but that was I just went you know I am really cranky about this and then
Amra (39:03)
Hahaha!
Kellie Nissen (39:09)
I think the final nail, if you like, and I'm not going to say in the coffin, but you know quite like that concept, is when the ASA came out and supported a program that did not support independent authors at all and was excluding them. So, and I actually called them on that publicly so I'm quite happy to say it here. ASA are fantastic in so many ways but
There's just been a couple of times they've supported organizations that exclude independent authors for no reason at all. And I'm like, well, that's it. So I'm going to do this podcast that, yeah, okay, so I exclude traditional published authors, but they have so many opportunities in so many other podcasts. They don't need me, my little podcast, but.
I love talking to authors who've published under their own steam and to other people in the industry who support independent authors. I've interviewed Jessie Kniffey, does book blurb magic. Sorry, Jessie. She works with independently published authors writing their blurbs.
It astounds me all the time. I just want to shine a little light on independent authors and just say, know, hashtag self-published is not second best by any extreme and we need to be treated equally. other thing is booksellers as well. Take your book, yeah. Take your book if you're an independent author.
Take your book to some of the bigger booksellers out there and I've done this with mine and with clients books with a couple and they're like, oh, you know, just wondering if you'd like to have a look at this book and maybe, you know, take a couple of copies on consignment and blah, blah. Oh, is it self-published? Yes. No, thank you. Don't look at the book. Don't, you know, judge the, you know, they've judged the book on the fact that it's been self-published. Do you want to look at this?
Amra (41:01)
Good.
Kellie Nissen (41:08)
this book was professionally edited, has this professional design blah blah blah blah. No, it's self-published, we don't do that. Shout out to the book shops who do, who support them.
Amra (41:16)
Yeah, Better Read then Dead who have got my copies of Time Kneels Between Mountains. Readings also do it. Some Dymockss stores will also support Indian. Yeah, but it depends on the store. It's not every single one. It depends on the specific store.
Kellie Nissen (41:20)
Mm-hmm. Yep. Mm-hmm. Yes, because they're franchises, right? So, yes. Yes, the book Howl in Canberra. So supportive of independent, ⁓ local independent authors. So there are booksellers out there that do that, but there are a lot that just go, yeah, no, aside without even looking at the book. So, you know, judge the book on the book, not on the pathway. Yeah.
Amra (41:52)
Because readers do, readers do, because at this point, I make this claim and I do not believe it is hyperbole.
I make the claim that at this junction in time, the most viable way for an author to make a living is by being an independently published author ⁓ because the traditional publishing model is collapsing and there's so many more pressures and less opportunities. But also what I find fascinating is if you are an artist, you paint, you put on an exhibition at a gallery and people buy your work and that's okay.
Kellie Nissen (42:09)
Yes.
Amra (42:28)
are a jeweler, you create jewelry, you sell it online, you sell it in markets, that's okay. So there are all these crafts, all these people who are creating things themselves, they are doing it themselves and they are selling you know beautiful amazing things. But there is something about
Kellie Nissen (42:47)
Yeah.
Amra (42:50)
the writing world and the publishing industry almost, I almost think that this is on purpose, that this is an effort to, because honestly, I'm gonna make another statement here that's controversial.
Kellie Nissen (42:57)
Bye.
Amra (43:03)
But the only way that the traditional publishing industry functions is because it's gaslighting us into thinking that we are the chosen ones. But when you actually look at what you get from the fact that they are taking all of your intellectual property, like they sign you to a contract where they take everything, all of your rights, and you have no right of negotiation or refusal. You just basically have to take it or leave it.
And, you know, so they take it, they take it all, but what you get back, you get 10%. And you don't even, if you're lucky, like...
Kellie Nissen (43:33)
Yes, if you're lucky. If you're a picture book author you get five.
Amra (43:38)
Yes, because of the high cost of illustrations, the high cost of production of color printing. So, you know, like you are getting, you are the one who has generated the content that is being used to sell that is powering this whole industry. And yet we are the ones who are completely at the bottom. And at least to the joy with being an indie author and your own small press is that yes, I have to pay the costs. have to pay for my software that I use for the production. have to pay for the editing. I have to pay for all of these things. And for promotion and advertising, like I'm going to some book fairs this year, I have to pay for the tables to be at those book fairs to be able to try and sell the books. But at least I also have the joy.
Kellie Nissen (44:24)
Yes.
Amra (44:28)
At least I also have the intellectual property that I can maximize and that I can do into various formats because you my last book that I sold traditionally I attempted negotiating. I did not get anywhere.
Kellie Nissen (44:28)
Yes.
No, and no you don't they're pretty well locked in like that's you know and the thing is to Like there is the word like you know if you if you do go down the traditional publishing route and you are Lucky and I'm gonna say it's luck right luck of the drawl. It's if you are lucky enough to be offered a contract You know word is all you know try to negotiate terms
Amra (44:46)
Yeah.
I agree.
Kellie Nissen (45:08)
they're not going to because the thing is, unless there is something completely unreasonable there, is that they have 4,000 other manuscripts that they can turn to instead of yours. I think it's your decision. It's like, do I want to go down this path or do I not? I mean, even though I am all about independent...like indie authors and self-publishing and author publishing and all that sort of thing. I also do believe that if you want to pursue a traditional contract you absolutely should as well. And there are plenty of authors out there that I know that do both. that some authors that have self-published a large number of books.
but they're still submitting to traditional publishers and maybe they get a contract and as somebody, I can't remember who it was now, otherwise I'd name drop, but somebody pointed out the other day that yes, you know, I love self-publishing, I love the control that it gives me and all that sort of thing and I love being able to make those decisions. It's a business, right? It's not just a hobby. But...
I'm still pursuing the traditional contract because that is at the moment with the way the perception is that is the only way that I'm going to be able to make a name for myself. Well not necessarily the only way but it is probably the quickest way so if I've got one book published by a traditional publisher under my name and it's promoted and it's out there
Sadly, it's almost like instant credibility as well. And I think we have to be realistic about that as well. And some publishers are fantastic. Some traditional publishers, brilliant to work for, they do the right thing and that sort of thing. there's a few of them that really, really look after their authors and their illustrators as well. you know, we're not here to say,
Amra (46:49)
Yeah, look, I am beneficial. Yeah.
Kellie Nissen (47:11)
down with traditional publishers. What I want to say is, you know what, stop judging people on how they've been published and judge the book because there's some rubbish out there that's been traditionally published and there is rubbish that's self-published and vice versa. yeah. Let the readers decide. Don't tell them what they should and shouldn't be reading.
Amra (47:20)
And readers decide at the end of the day.
And I mean, I...
What you're talking about, like I did have the benefit of the traditional publishing industry and it did give me a great apprenticeship. I had really supportive editors with my short stories and building up my writing and then with my first few books. so transitioning into this part of my life has been much more seamless because I had the benefit of those skills. even I noticed the last few blurbs I wrote, they were the blurbs that were being used almost verbatim by the
Kellie Nissen (47:40)
you
Amra (48:00)
publishers and so I'm like ⁓ I'm figuring this out I'm learning the lingo I'm learning how to lean in and this is the issue when when we are starting this you being a small business as you said it is being a small business.
Kellie Nissen (48:16)
Yes, and that's how you need to treat it. I was speaking to Maggie Walters not that long ago on the podcast. think hers is going to air just before yours, I think. Yeah, ⁓ she's fantastic. Or has it already gone to air? Might have already gone to air. I can't remember. I'm up to like number 22 or something now. But Maggie was saying that, you know, this is her business. This is, this is.
Amra (48:28)
⁓ I'll listen to it.
Kellie Nissen (48:42)
what she does and as an indie author she treats this as her business. you know she does the marketing, she has allocated time each day to writing, allocated time to promo, to dealing with the other stakeholders in her business. So I think it all boils down to whether or not you can devote that time.
to making this your business or whether it's just okay I've got this book I've self-published it I'm really proud of it I have time to go and sell it at markets once every two months I'll do a little bit of social media promotion I mean you you get back what you give in or what you put
Amra (49:21)
and out.
So the thing is you might not be able to do everything all at once. this is the first year that I'm really stepping into the direct sales and going to the markets and the book fairs. I did one market before and I was like, never again. But now I'm like, no, it's about meeting people. It's about making those connections. It's about, you know, just sort of being open to, as opposed to thinking, is this worth the time versus effort?
Kellie Nissen (49:36)
Ha
Amra (49:48)
And so you can't do everything all at the one time. You have to slowly ease into it and figure it out. And the great thing is, as each book comes out, that's a new opportunity to promote and you can still promote the backlist and that is promoting your backlist. it's a constant process of learning and the industry is constantly changing. There's always new things to learn and new things to try and to experience. And that's what I love about it. I think as teachers, that
Kellie Nissen (50:08)
Absolutely.
Amra (50:16)
the one thing about being a teacher we can never rest on our laurels it was always like learn learn learn ⁓
Kellie Nissen (50:20)
Yes, and you learn something and you implement it and then the next government comes in and go, now we're to change that.
Amra (50:30)
And then when you're long enough, you're there long enough, you're like, a deja vu. I remember this being called this. And now it's a new name. Someone read an old journal, did they?
Kellie Nissen (50:35)
25 years, I had plenty of
Yes, yeah and you know the people that come out, the new teachers, I work with pre-service teachers and some of them will say, you know we came up with this concept. I'm like, did you now? Yes, Yes, exactly.
Amra (50:54)
No you didn't my darling, no you didn't. Just like there's no story that hasn't been told, there's no
teaching model that hasn't been used. No.
Kellie Nissen (51:02)
Yeah, absolutely. you know, and I think just embracing that whole, you know, as humans, we are lifelong learners. Like you don't stop. And I think the minute you start going, yeah, I know everything about this industry. You're going to fail. You know, in the story, there's always, it's for us. Yeah, but it's also frustrating. It's just like, ⁓ you know, I've just I've just nailed how to do this. And now the system is.
Amra (51:10)
We are.
No, that's what I actually love about it the most.
Kellie Nissen (51:29)
changed it, why? But I think your mindset is fantastic. It's like, I'm excited about learning this new thing and I'm going to embrace it.
Amra (51:36)
I love it. I'm constantly, my problem is actually going for too many shiny things at once. And so, and then I've wasted so much time on shiny things that just was not for me. But I kind of had to go through that because now I'm like, is this the shiny thing for me? Let's do a little bit of a think beforehand. You know, let's not jump into that. Like I launched into the Shopify store.
Kellie Nissen (51:47)
Yes.
Amra (52:02)
That was not for me. So now I'm on payhip, which is better because it's just a fee deducted when a sale goes through. Whereas Shopify is constant, you have to...
Kellie Nissen (52:11)
Yes, okay. It's a subscription, isn't it?
Amra (52:17)
It's a subscription monthly and then you're supposed to get all these add-ons and all these things and set up this e-commerce stuff. And I don't like the pressure of that. I realized my approach is creation and release and building. I'm not into, yeah, so I like the change, I like the learning, but there is sometimes too much of it.
Kellie Nissen (52:42)
Yes, yes, I think it's a bit of self-control. You know what I want to say too, a couple of minutes ago you went straight into teacher mode. Yes, I can see like the just you leant forward to the camera and you just I'm like my god there's the teacher. If I didn't know you were a teacher it's like how do I know somebody's a teacher without them telling me they're a teacher. So yeah, love it.
Amra (52:46)
Yeah, I'm learning. I'm learning! Well, I just... Yeah. Did I?
Yeah, yeah, the face, the face does so much work, like 90 % of everything that you do in the classroom is the face. Because you know, you just the looks and the the and the body language and yes, it's wonderful though, because applying it in the rest of your life.
Kellie Nissen (53:11)
You can never lose it. There you go.
The tincture
Amra (53:28)
⁓ you know, like every once in a while my daughter is like, my God, your tone. And I'm like, well, they provoked it and they got it. You know, so it's like, don't. Yeah. Yeah. Don't push the boundary. As soon as you push, you will, you will get it back. Yeah. But I think that's
Kellie Nissen (53:40)
Yes, yep. Just like my daughter.
Yeah, yeah, Yes, no, I love it.
Amra (53:51)
Yeah, and that's the thing about teaching. One thing that I've learned through teaching is I am not afraid to ask questions. I'm not afraid to ask for clarification because we are constantly put in situations where we don't know what the hell is going on. And so I don't care anymore. In every first of my life, I was having a conversation with someone at an academic conference. So I felt very out of place. I was doing my first in-person presentation in my identity as an academic, know, having done my doing my PhD.
Kellie Nissen (54:18)
you
Amra (54:20)
and they were talking about Jamaican people immigrating to Australia, not to Australia sorry to England and there was this term that they used. I can't remember something Wilson or Walter and I was like ⁓ what is that and then they explained ⁓ my god I care I am not here to pretend and to just laugh along I want to be part of the conversation I want to know because that's something that I will now know you know for future yeah.
Kellie Nissen (54:38)
Thank you.
Mm-hmm. Mm. Yes.
There is that whole attitude too as a teacher that you are the all-knowing as well and that, you know, you never admit to students that you don't know something and I'm just like,
Amra (54:50)
Yeah. and I'm rubbish.
Kellie Nissen (54:58)
That's like teaching 101
Amra (54:59)
I never play that game.
Kellie Nissen (55:00)
for pre-service teachers is if you don't know something, you tell the students you don't know and that you're gonna find out together. And it's the same with me, with what I do now, is like I'll have a client who said to me, look, what about this? And I'll be like, actually I don't know, but I'm gonna find out for you, or let's go now and check this website and just see if we can unpack it together. Because you're gonna tie yourself up in knots if you,
Amra (55:06)
Yes. Yes.
Kellie Nissen (55:27)
don't admit to not knowing something when you know and maybe you should but you don't and that's fine.
Amra (55:33)
leave in it and I just also like at this time
with everything, you know, evolving so much in technology, like you are constantly learning and coming across things. And I think ⁓ it's quite ludicrous to try and present that I am everything. And just, you know, what you said in terms of where we're lifelong learners, I feel like I'm constantly adding new things to my, you know, identity. Like now we're both podcasters. That's our new identity.
Kellie Nissen (55:58)
Yes.
Amra (56:02)
But you know, I'm not here to be fancy as I admitted at the beginning. I could not remember how to get onto my platform.
Kellie Nissen (56:08)
⁓ yeah, absolutely. it's just, know,
in my podcast when I stuff up, I've started leaving it in there. was like, know what, the thing is, if you can't laugh at yourself for something, know, life's pretty dull as it is.
Amra (56:16)
Yeah, I don't care.
Well, there's that. And
then also, I don't know, do you listen to Joanna Penn, the Creative Penn podcast?
Kellie Nissen (56:31)
Yes, because you put me onto that.
Amra (56:33)
my God.
So her last podcast, it just opened my eyes where she was like, in this day and age of all this AI, people actually crave human where you're speaking like a human and you're making a mistake and you know that they could tell that it's an actual human being doing this and not something that's generated. And so that has also just really changed my view where I'm like, yes.
I am human and I need to lean into that and not put on that, you know, fake perfection persona and actually lean into that. Yeah, that was an interesting moment today when I couldn't remember things and that's just my life.
Kellie Nissen (57:12)
Absolutely, so for everybody out there who's listening, watching, whatever, we're real. We are not, because you can, I've played with software that can actually generate like ⁓ AI.
Amra (57:18)
Yes.
Kellie Nissen (57:27)
podcasts where it's you put in a little bit of content and it creates this entire podcast with and it's only American voices at the moment so that's the other reason why you know we're real is you know it's created this entire podcast conversation between two AI bots and it's just like my god that's so cool it's like yes but no because it's still not human and yes so
Amra (57:43)
Good. No. And anyone who's watching this might have noticed I did write questions that I sent to Kelly, but what I love, I have asked none of them because what I love is the conversation and where it goes and the energy.
Kellie Nissen (57:56)
You did and you've asked none of them.
So let me show you, there we go. I printed them off and I only put little notes because I'm like, God, know, what if, what if Amara asked me a question and my mind just goes like that. And I had them here and I know you said you weren't going to use them, but I put them here anyway, just in case. And then about halfway through, just put them over on the side and went, yes, it's not going the way she said it would, but that's fine.
Amra (58:11)
I think I'm gonna start actually just sending the bio through and just bullet points and saying this is the bio, just proofread that and these are the bullet points of what I want the conversation to be. But I don't share questions because I feel a bit bad if people are spending time preparing for the questions and I just love the flow. I love just letting it, know, wherever the moment takes us.
Kellie Nissen (58:32)
Yeah, so full disclosure, I did pre-prepare, right? But it was at 10 to 2 when I went, ⁓ my god, I've got to get on this. my god, where are the questions? Where are they?
Amra (59:06)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was like me last night going, I better send you a reminder and then sent the wrong time.
Kellie Nissen (59:12)
Yes, and then me self-doubting and going, I'm sure it was two o'clock that it was in my car. What? She said it's nine o'clock.
Amra (59:17)
And it was in my diaries two o'clock. It was just me not looking at the next day and going, yeah, I'm pretty sure it's that time.
Kellie Nissen (59:22)
Yeah, yeah, never trust yourself. If you've got a teacher's brain, don't trust it because we remember.
Amra (59:29)
No, but we don't pretend. That's important. No, exactly.
Kellie Nissen (59:32)
No, and we don't care either. That's it. That's us.
Amra (59:35)
Well, thank you so much for coming on, having this great conversation, for having me on your podcast too. I really appreciate it. And just also for being another person that I know in this new world that I'm entering, that I can sort of touch base with and yeah, have a yarn with because it can be a bit of a lonely space because we're out there a little bit, aren't we?
Kellie Nissen (59:53)
you 100%. It can be. I think, because I know when you came on my podcast and we talked before I started recording for longer than I think the podcast went for, because we both discovered we were both teachers. And then it was like, there's a free for all. So yeah, but no, thank you. has been fantastic. It's like, you know, and I can't even remember how we connected in the first place, but I'm so glad we did.
Amra (1:00:09)
Yeah. It's on. somebody actually told me that you were looking for guests and that I should contact you. So that's the other thing that's really lovely about social media. This is someone I don't actually know in real life, but we've been following each other and then, you know, people just reach out and they're like, maybe you should try this or maybe look at this. And that's also the joyous thing where, you know, these online connections are also quite meaningful.
Kellie Nissen (1:00:26)
That's right. ⁓
Yes, yeah, absolutely. So it's just, know, put yourself out there, be open and say yes to stuff that scares the bejesus out of you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. It was all sort of. Thank you, Amara.
Amra (1:00:54)
Yes.
Because eventually it won't. Eventually it won't.
Yeah. Okay.
Well, thank you so much.