Three Minutes To Matter: A conversation with Dr Katherine Firth
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You can listen above or on your favourite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
Subscribe: Spotify | Apple | RSS | More
You can listen above or on your favourite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
Show notes
Amra sits down with Dr Katherine Firth to unpack how the Three Minute Thesis turns complex research into a clear, human story and why that skill changes academic careers. Amra shares the path from department heat to university win to Asia–Pacific submission, including the full 3MT performance.
• what 3MT is and why it matters
• how to build a strong opening, middle and closing
• cutting jargon and choosing clean language
• using one slide as a memory anchor
• rehearsing in the real venue and managing nerves
• when to memorise versus use cue cards
• applying feedback between heats to improve
• career value for academia, industry and media
• building community, confidence and momentum
• ethical storytelling for sensitive research topics
Thank you for listening to my interview with Dr. Katherine Firth about the three-minute thesis competition. I will now be including my three-minute thesis application, and so you'll be able to listen to it. This is the one that went to the Asia Pacific heat, and I will also include a link to the initial La Trobe heat, which is the one that I won.
Subscribe and follow for more insights, stories, and inspiration
You can find the episode show notes, your free episode handouts, and my how‑to guides at amrapajalic.com/podcast
• what 3MT is and why it matters
• how to build a strong opening, middle and closing
• cutting jargon and choosing clean language
• using one slide as a memory anchor
• rehearsing in the real venue and managing nerves
• when to memorise versus use cue cards
• applying feedback between heats to improve
• career value for academia, industry and media
• building community, confidence and momentum
• ethical storytelling for sensitive research topics
Thank you for listening to my interview with Dr. Katherine Firth about the three-minute thesis competition. I will now be including my three-minute thesis application, and so you'll be able to listen to it. This is the one that went to the Asia Pacific heat, and I will also include a link to the initial La Trobe heat, which is the one that I won.
Subscribe and follow for more insights, stories, and inspiration
You can find the episode show notes, your free episode handouts, and my how‑to guides at amrapajalic.com/podcast
Connect with Dr Katherine Firth
Dr Katherine Firth has been developing research writers for over 15 years. Currently, she is Senior Lecturer in the Research Education and Development team at La Trobe University and Head of Lisa Bellear House, at the University of Melbourne. A co-founder of the award-winning Thesis Bootcamp program, she maintains a writing blog Research Degree Insiders. She is co-author of the books How to Fix your Academic Writing Trouble (Open University Press 2018), Your PhD Survival Guide (Routledge 2020) and Level Up your Essays (New South 2021). Her most recent book is Writing Well and Being Well for Your PhD and Beyond (Routledge 2023).
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/katherinefirth/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/katherinefirth/
Amra Pajalic Academic Bio
Amra Pajalić is an award-winning author, educator, and PhD researcher of Bosnian heritage exploring representations of the Bosnian genocide in fiction. Her work blends storytelling with historical analysis to confront dehumanisation and preserve cultural memory. Her novel Time Kneels Between Mountains and her accompanying essay collection explores the legacy of the Srebrenica genocide. Amra Pajalic awarded first prize in the La Trobe University 3 Minute Thesis Competition, standing out among 10 talented competitors. This incredible recognition comes with a $4,000 prize.
Transcript of episode
Amra Pajalic: 00:04
I'm Amra Pajalic, writer, teacher, and storyteller. Pull up a chair and let's dive into stories about writing, life, and lessons learned. Sharing wisdom from my armchair to yours. You can find the episode show notes, your free episode handouts, and my how to guide at amrait.com slash podcast. And now it's time to dive in.
Amra Pajalic: 00:33
So welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. In today's episode, I'm talking to Dr. Katherine Firth. She's been developing research writers for over 15 years. Currently, she's a senior lecturer in the research education and development team at La Trome University and head of the Lisa Belair House. Is that how I say that? Belair House at the University of Melbourne, co-founder of the award-winning thesis boot camp program. She maintains a writing blog, Research Degree Insiders. And she's co-author of the books How to Fix Your Academic Writing Trouble, Your PhD Survival Guide, and Level Up Your Essays. And her most recent book is Writing Well and Being Well for Your PhD and Beyond. Welcome, Katherine.
Katherine Firth: 01:20
Thank you so much for having me today, Amra.
Amra Pajalic: 01:22
Thank you. Now I'm uh talking to you in my academic life and in my academic journey. So I'm just going to read a little bit of my academic uh introduction and bio. So I'm an award-winning author, educator, but I'm also a PhD researcher of Bosnian heritage, exploring representations of the Bosnian genocide in fiction. I'm blending storytelling with historical analysis to confront dehumanization and preserve of a cultural memory. My novel, Time Kneels Between Mountains, and my accompanying essay collection explores the legacy of the surveillance of genocide. And I'm here because I was awarded a first prize in the La Trode University three-minute thesis competition. And it was a fierce competition. There were 10 amazing competitors. And I won a 4,000 prize to help my further my academic journey, which I'm very excited about. So we're here to talk about the three-minute thesis program and what it is and what it does. Get your perspective as someone who supports students in that journey. I just want to get my perspective as someone who has stumbled into it as a student and won this amazing prize and yeah, to sort of contextualize that. So first of all, I thought, can you um tell us what is the three-minute thesis competition?
Katherine Firth: 02:50
Thank you, Amra. And before I do, to say congratulations again. Well done. You were absolutely like it was such a fierce competition. There was real, there was real, really uh complex debates about who would win. So to have um to have achieved that is a really great outcome. Um and also it's lovely to get to talk to each other again as we're going to um kind of describe through this the process of preparing for the university finals was quite intensive. We spent quite a lot of time together. So it's really great to catch up just this a little bit later and uh see how it's all going and uh reflect on what was a really intense um experience, I think, for everybody involved. Certainly it was for me. Um I personally have been involved in supporting three-minute thesis uh preparation for about 15 years now. Um, the and the the whole program has been going on for a lot longer than that. Um so the three-minute thesis was invented by the University of Queensland uh nearly two decades ago. Um, it's become uh first a national and now an international uh competition uh culminating uh in the Asia Pacific finals, which have only just taken place. Um the competition is simultaneously extraordinarily simple and incredibly challenging. The challenge is for PhD candidates, so people in their second or later year of their PhD, to explain their research in three minutes or less. PhDs are 80 or more thousand words, they take three or four years full-time study to do. They're done by people who already have school, undergraduate, master's, and quite a bit of uh, you know, high degree by research, PhD level research already in the bag. And at that moment, we're like, so can you just like do that really quickly and do that in a way that somebody who's not in your discipline, not studying what you're studying, not an expert in that way, can follow. So we have um at the finals at La Trobe, for example, those 10 candidates, they came from biomedicine. We had a person who was doing a thing about like how people in farms work out what flies and other insects are eating stuff. We had a person who was looking at like how dieting was impacting male mice' brain power. We had a person who was trying to um help midwives uh on placement be more effective. Like everything was being covered. And then we had you, Amara, and you were telling your story, um, both of your um about your novel, Time Kneels Between Mountains, uh, and uh the context and uh wider research you were doing around how that sits uh in in literature. So, you know, creative writing, uh literary studies, recent history. Um so all these different kinds of things are happening, and people have to be able to understand them wherever they come from.
Amra Pajalic: 06:14
Yeah. Well, I I kind of stumbled into it because I had to do my presentation um to, you know, like come in and to the department. And then they were like, okay, you know, we're asking for people to enter the three-minute competition at the department level. Um, and because I'm fine, I was finally at a point where I could see my thesis, I actually had a a bit of clarity about what was going on with it because that's for a long time I felt like wading through mud, where it's like, what am I trying to do here? What am I trying to write? I just entered it because I thought, oh, this is a good academic credit. Um, because I'm thinking about you know my future academic journey and trying to um, you know, get into the university sector. And I was like, oh, this is a great opportunity just for an academic credit, just you know, to speak at the department. And there were some prizes where there was like, you know, $500 um first prize and you know, 300 and 200, I think. Um and so I was just thought, oh, that's great. That's that's I didn't even know that there was more after that. So when I did the actual, you know, so I practiced, I rehearsed, I thought, oh, this is good as a teacher, that I can talk to my high school students that I teach about oral presentations and preparing them. I'm always telling them cue cards and you know, practice and all of this. So I thought, okay, this is good, you know, gave me that extra reason to do it. So um I did that presentation and then they were like, oh, you've won. And then they're like, and now do you wish to represent the department in the next heat? And I'm like, oh, there's a a next heat.
Katherine Firth: 07:58
And there is, there are so many rounds because there was there's the department. So at Lutrobe, as in most universities, there's like schools and departments do them, and then it goes up to the university finals, and then it goes on to the Asia Pacific semifinals, uh, all of which you got into. Uh, and then the finals, um, yeah, so it's it's like it's layers and layers and layers. Amazing.
Amra Pajalic: 08:26
It is, and then also I didn't realize what a big deal it was. Um, because you know, when when I got the um department one and then was in touch with um with Anthony, who was who what what uh can you explain Anthony's position?
Katherine Firth: 08:42
Oh, he's the director of graduate research. So every department has um an academic who helps uh coordinate all graduate research sort of training, ethics, admin, uh works with all the doctoral supervisors, uh is a first port of call for um students who need to go above their supervisor for whatever reason, uh, and interfaces with the central uh graduate services for things like policy changes and um and things like please can you find me a whole group of people to do three-minute thesis because uh that's a really important part of what they do.
Amra Pajalic: 09:22
Yeah. Yeah. And so he was like, okay, now you're going to do one-on-one coaching. And so that's where you came in, where um I met you. And so we spent like an intense hour um where I was reading my speech to you and going through it line by line. Um, and we were tightening and looking at, in a sense, um, what was interesting for me was looking for codes for how to sort of um tell what the the story of my thesis, but how to use coded language. So I remember we were talking about, you know, this romance that I had, and you're like Romeo and Juliet romance. And as soon as we use that code, we know that it's a boomed romance in a sense.
Katherine Firth: 10:05
Yeah, because there was a stage where I was like, did they get together and live happily ever after in the end? And you're like, no, no, that's not my story.
Amra Pajalic: 10:14
Yeah. And so it was really fascinating because um, you know, for me to write that first speech, I had to go online and I found like an outline um that I could use to write the structure. And then I was editing and and, you know, really trying to get it down. Um, and then it was just interesting how we really then went into it further, word by word, um, to really kind of strengthen every bit of it. Um, and then also there was a little bit of you know rehearsing with you, um, and you giving me pointers. And the other thing that was important and I sort of didn't realize was um the slide and the slide. So you only get one static slide that you can have as your background. Um, so that was another really important thing that you had to think about and how how will that you know connect with the audience.
Katherine Firth: 11:11
Um what was actually really interesting is that the way that we worked together, every person I worked with, what they needed was totally different. So I had some people where um what was what they kind of really needed was more of like the emotional heart of the story. Or I had other people where the things that weren't clear were really obvious things. I was like, you've used a whole load of uh acronyms there. I don't know what they mean, no one else will know what they mean. Uh, with some of the science people. Um I had a lot of time with um with Lockie, who was doing the one about the the flies and other uh agricultural insects, getting him to explain it to me, and then me trying to explain it back to him. And he was like, no. And we had to go around a few times, and then he was like a data and I was like, okay, so that's the version that people who are non-experts will be able to understand. Because he was turning all of these insects into some kind of DNA soup and then doing maths to it. And I was like, I really was struggling to understand that. But in the end, we got to a point where I can now tell you that he was putting insects into a DNA soup and then doing maths with it, and that will tell you whether or not you've got lots of kinds of insects eating your fruit and vegetable. Um, so some of the people, that was what they needed. You, because you're a writer, were really already ready to do that kind of line edit. But that's the thing that only creative writers already know how to do. So it was also really interesting that we worked, the way we worked together was much more the way I work um as a writer myself, but that sort of really line level, uh, whereas other people needed something different. And so we did something different.
Amra Pajalic: 13:02
Yeah. So what what I'm hearing, in a sense, like that's the challenge because you're doing that to your department first. They understand what you're talking about. Um, and you know, you you don't realize, in a sense, if you have not translated it enough for the layperson, for someone who knows nothing about your research, and you have got these three minutes where you have to tell them that.
Katherine Firth: 13:28
Absolutely, that they understand it and also that they've already bought in that you're doing it. We have a cancer research center. Everybody in the cancer research center absolutely believes that killing cancer is the most important thing. They've all already given their lives to it. Um, and so that was that wasn't a hard sell. That's also not usually a hard sell. Most people uh agree that that's really important. Whereas we have other kinds of um projects where people had to explain. Actually, my research might not sound like it's very interesting, might not sound like it's really relevant, might not sound like it's important, but actually it is. And here's how um, even though you've never thought about it before, it's actually really relevant to you.
Amra Pajalic: 14:11
Yeah. So what would you, in terms of people who like me, stumbled into it and were like, okay, I'm just gonna do it for my department as you know, the academic credit, how would you um advise them to sort of start the process? Like for me, it was finding the structure for um how to write the the thesis and sort of putting it together based on that. What other tips do you have?
Katherine Firth: 14:40
The main thing that is um is important is really to understand why it matters to you. Human beings really respond to other humans. Um, they really respond to your authenticity, to your feelings, to your passion. Uh and so if you've worked out what really why you got into it or remember why you got into it perhaps years and years ago, um, then that can really help you uh connect to the kind of you know electric third rail, the kind of heart of the story. Um and that then um I'll go a long way listening to people who I have no idea what you're talking about, but I know you care. And that really is something that can bring audiences with them. Um when we talk about when we run the workshops, so there were workshops about this uh that we run to support that. We've got an online module that kind of gives advice about it. So we we sort of also give some technical advice around it. Um, and we definitely uh recommend that people spend time to tell to identify what their story is, give some kind of beginning, some kind of middle, some kind of end, um, and to start and end with something that's really strong. One of the candidates for the finals didn't make a time to see me one-on-one. And it was, I was chatting with my colleagues later, and they were like, was that the person who didn't come? Because they could guess. And what was really obvious about it was that his beginning and his end were not as strong as the people who'd really rehearsed. Start with a joke, start with a like unbelievably shocking and um surprising or you know, enormous uh fact. Start with how it relates to you, start with why it matters, those kinds of things. People want, are really keen to come along if you'll just give them a way in. So really give them a strong way in and then really kind of return to that uh in the conclusion so they can remember it uh when you've walked off the stage, because then they can remember what it was that you said. So when they're voting for you, they're like, oh yes, that one, that was really strong. That really um that was really significant for me.
Amra Pajalic: 16:59
So there's also, I'm sure every university will sort of have some of the things that you were talking about in terms of the modules, in terms of opportunities for um to talk to people. So, you know, getting those opportunities, taking advantage of them uh is something that we're really sort of saying is is pivotal. Yeah.
Katherine Firth: 17:18
Absolutely, absolutely. It's like starting, you know, you don't have to start with a blank page, you don't have to do it on your own. It's been going forever now. You can also jump online. Um, UQ has really great uh resources, has videos of previous winners, had a whole range of things. Most universities will also have that. So you're not starting with like, what do I even do? You can go and listen to a whole load of people whose work sort of looks a bit like yours and go, oh, that's how they've tackled it. I could do something similar.
Amra Pajalic: 17:50
Yeah. Well, I was very silly and I didn't do any of that.
Katherine Firth: 17:54
So I was completely also break the rules, do whatever, have a go, because as you can see, even just stumbling into it, it's easy enough. The idea of it, I've just got to explain it in three minutes. I mean, it was challenging, but it also wasn't um impossible.
Amra Pajalic: 18:16
No, no, I think uh I mean the advantage for me, as you said, is that I'm a writer, and so that creative background and the writing part held me in good stead. And then also I've had a lot of experience with public speaking. So I came in with those two strengths, but I did um really find the opportunity to get the coaching from you uh and then later with Anthony for the final and that refining um really, you know, was invaluable, really made a difference. I just also wanted to talk about in terms of the um, you know, we had the department heat, so that was just in a room in the university with, you know, people who showed up. But um, when we had the actual lecturer date, like that was fun because we had um a rehearsal beforehand in the actual space to see the auditorium. And then on the day there was live streaming and recording and you as the MC. So yeah, I thought I just wanted you to contextualize that also.
Katherine Firth: 19:24
Absolutely. So the three-minute thesis is one of our flagship uh whole of university research uh development uh events. Um and so, and it's been a little bit pre-COVID, it was massive, it was bigger than Benho. There's no way you wouldn't have known about it. It's gone a bit quieter, you know, it all went online for a few years, and then we were sort of bringing it back. Uh and this year, I was like, no, we're going all out. We got good budget for it. Uh, so the graduate research school really kind of uh invested in it. We searched reams of different rooms at La Trobe and settled on the Agoras Theatre, uh, the cinema, rather. So for people who don't know, uh La Trobe University has had uh a whole theatre and a whole um sort of art cinema. Um, people, I was just talking to somebody who I was at a leadership course with the other day, who was like, yeah, actually, I got into film. He's now had a you know global streaming, film, television um career because I got into film going to the ag cinema for five bucks uh back in the 90s. So like these really beautiful stories, which people often tell me about their connection to this space. So, but it's a full cinema. Huge, loads of chairs, beautiful space right in the center uh of campus. We did a full dress rehearsal because I was like, nobody, I used to do, I used to do student-like productions. So I was like, you need to know, will my shoes make weird sounds on the floor? How, if I wear these, this outfit, how will the microphone like clip to my lapel? Because everybody has worn the shirt that like got pulled off by the microphone or that made weird sort of pushy noises as you were trying to present. What does it feel like to present to this space? But we were doing it with nobody in the audience. And on the day, there were like 80 people in the audience. There were, I think, three different video cameras, there was a photographer or two, there were two photographers, in fact. So it was like it was bigger than Ben Her. Um, and for most people, um, especially either the biggest thing that they'd done like that in a very long time. Um, and for some people, the only time they'd ever stood up in what was basically a television audience, a light television audience, um, broadcasting right across the state. La Trobe has uh campuses right across Victoria and across the world. We had um audience from all over the globe. So it was a really, really full-scale event. Um and it's yeah, and then and then we take video from that event, and that video goes off uh to the finals, which are all up on the YouTube website. Um, yeah, so it'd be it's just it's a really big, really full-scale uh experience with catering afterwards, um, and is one of the things that we really see as one of the few ways that we bring people together physically um and synchronously uh across the trope.
Amra Pajalic: 22:33
Yeah, I mean, I was so relieved I was there for the dress rehearsal and I I really had that chance to prepare. And also we had a conversation where um my topic is quite dark and you know it's about genocide, and I was like, put me on last because I bring the mood down. And so I think that worked very well.
Katherine Firth: 22:54
Um, but yeah, absolutely. There was an original one where we had yours and then the next person's story had lots of jokes in it, and it was not good.
Amra Pajalic: 23:03
Yeah, no, um, yeah, so it was yeah, so that that's the other thing that you sort of need to take into account, those transitions in terms of mood and and how to, because yeah, some of the speakers were um, everyone was so charismatic. I was completely shocked that I won. And the other thing um that I wanted to talk about is I could not memorize my speech to save my life. And I think, especially being a writer, I'm very tied to like every single word having to be exactly perfect to the way that I wrote it down. And so for me, trying to actually memorize the whole thing and go in without anything was not something I could do. Um, but so many participants did um just get up there and did not have any um aids. And so we had that conversation where I was like, can I have my cue cards? So I just thought, um, yeah, if you could sort of flag that and talk that through a bit.
Katherine Firth: 24:02
Absolutely. So the rules say you can have uh memory aids, so cue cards, your full script, uh, and those are absolutely permissible. Um, we usually recommend that you don't because it's quite difficult if you're going to, you know, speak up, speak out, project to the audience, um, you know, make eye contact if you want to gesture, if you're like me, um, and you make lots of hand gestures, uh, the chances that I would throw my cue cards um is um I used to do debating at school and absolutely Katherine of the debate team, my cue cards, the number of times I was like, oh no, they have gone flying, uh was quite common. Uh so there's some of that kind of stuff where we're like, look, if you can memorize it, there's a lot of benefit to it. Um also for most people's talk, the big, your big points are much more important uh than any of the details about how every particular word kind of interlocks with every other word. But I think that kind of goes back to both the sensitivity of your topic and the way that we were workshopping your talk from the beginning. You know, that we were really interested in the words and and the kind of exact pacing of the way you talked about what you did. So for you to wing it would have been much harder than somebody else who you know had their talking points, but if they were a little bit fudgy in how they got from A to B, it was probably not going to be quite as as significant. Um yeah. So you can have a memory aid, um, but we often recommend that you at least try to go without.
Amra Pajalic: 25:46
Yeah, so I um just wanted to talk through the technical aspects of my memory aids. Um so I did my speech in Word 18 font, nice and big, because I can't read things without my glasses, so they had to be nice and big. I printed off um a few cards about this size, um, so on the 10 by 10 centimetres. And then I did staple them, I numbered them and I stapled them so that I would not lose the order and they would not fall out of my hands because that's something, yes, I was nervous about. And this is the advantage of being a high school teacher and seeing students presenting and some of the pitfalls that they had. So afterwards of speaking to the judges and I I watched my speech and I actually did not look at them that much. I was able to maintain eye contact significantly. I had actually um rote learned quite a bit of it, but I just could not um, you know, trust myself not to have that exact order and to have that exact flow. And also, yes, the language was very important in terms of the words that I used. So for me, that was the best decision, and I managed to win with that. So um I guess that's one thing to think about in terms of what your speech is like. Is it something where you can tell the story and capture the general story of it? And there were also people who were using their um slide as the memory aid, where they were actually using it to tell the story of their thesis, um, and they were able to do that. So, you know, I guess the the point to be made is there is no one way of doing it. Each thesis and each topic and each um discipline will inform the way that you might want to do it. But I just want to make others like me feel okay about the fact that yes, you might need uh a memory aid. And then um we recorded again um for the Asia Pacific uh final. So I worked with Anthony on that draft also, and I recorded that on my phone, and I have an app that is um an auto cue app. And so I was able to revise with him again, uh, put it on the app and record myself on my phone and do another version that was tweaked again for the final. Um, and most of that was still pretty much the same, but there were some changes. But because it was an auto queue and I re-recorded it, um, and so that's the other thing that you know it might change each time. If you are progressing, you do have that opportunity to refine, to improve.
Katherine Firth: 28:38
And you really should. Um, people who do the same thing, the thing that will win at your school heat, um, everybody else is revising and improving it. So you absolutely want uh to keep going uh to improve it for these bigger and bigger audiences. It occurs to me that as you were talking, that one of the big differences is that uh science researchers, when they go to conferences, tend to give conference papers where they talk to their slides. So actually the big points are up on the slide and then they sort of talk to them. Whereas when I go to conferences, I have a full script and have always had a full script. That's just normal in my discipline. And people say, oh gosh, it's really boring when people read stuff out. And I'm like, no, it's not, because we're good at it. Uh, you know, we really do, we present with energy, we present with, you know, real passion, but we know that the words are really the right words because that's how we communicate our research. So I think that's the other thing is that if you're from a discipline where presenting with passion from a full script is a thing you're really good at, you may find that that's a really great strategy for something like 3MT.
Amra Pajalic: 29:53
Yeah, and I think like with writing, with all of my stuff, you know, even all the writing things, it is it is very much because it is about the words. And I I have now presented at a few conferences. And, you know, I do have the slides of some quotes, some key quotes or key images. And you mark those in your speech so you know to click next. But it is, it is very much the way that it is structured and it is the way reading it. I also want to talk about this. Is what I've been really interested in, because I I I knew generally, like I don't really know much about academia. I'm doing a PhD or I've been doing it seven years part-time. So I've been very disconnected from uni life because it's a part-time thing. I work um day job. And so I did it because I'm like, I know that if I want to get into academia, I need credits, I need to have connections with the university. So that's why I entered it. So I guess I just wanted to also get your perspective in terms of what are the opportunities that it affords? What, what, um, you know, how does it help?
Katherine Firth: 31:03
So it helps in such a lot of different ways. Um, in terms of uh specifically um academic positions, look, anytime you win anything, yay, that's a that's a little trophy on your shelf. So if you are entering it and you do do well, that does make a difference. We often, though, really uh talk about it in a whole range uh of other ways that it connects you to people. So you go to your school uh heat, uh you talk about your research in front of your peers, suddenly a whole load of people who had no idea who you were, what you were doing, have heard about your research. Uh so that then when they bump into you in the graduate common room, when they walk past you in the corridor, instead of just being like, hi, um, they can be like, Hi, AMRA, how's is the book out yet? How's it selling? What's the what's going on? You know, what's your next project? Because they actually have something to talk to you about. So it really builds uh what we call intellectual climate, some kind of you know, connections between researchers and builds your profile within that uh smaller um space. We know that in uh conferences, lots of conferences now have things like poster competitions uh or panel discussions. In those, having three to five minutes to kind of talk about your research is really normal. So for a lot of people, it's really helpful to get out there and kind of talk about what they're doing to uh their industry, to other researchers in their discipline across the nation, across the world. We know that industry partners are not very interested in reading 80,000 words of anything, um, but we absolutely know that they're often asking researchers to come in, uh give a really quick pitch or explanation to potential investors or to you know um participants or to clients or customers or patients or whatever the people might be. And so the ability to walk in and go, here, you know nothing about this, but I'm going to tell it to you in a really engaging way in about three minutes is a really powerful tool. And we know it's a really powerful tool in the media. Um, where one of the ways that um researchers often find really challenging is we're discovering this amazing stuff. And it's really hard to explain to other people what we're doing, where are people getting their information from? Podcasts, newspaper articles, little videos on YouTube or Instagram. The ability, therefore, to go on, do something really engaging uh in that sort of short snap type way is also something that really helps people get their story out to the wider, the wider public who might be interested. Yeah, so so many ways that it's useful.
Amra Pajalic: 33:59
Yeah, well, I found for me, it really helped me restructuring my thesis because using that structure to develop the three minute, um, I realized that one of my chapters I had not addressed my argument adequately. And then also some of the codes that we had developed, the the shortcut codes, um, I was able to use as my signposting and sort of look at the flow of of what I was writing. Um, so it helped me with that, but it also um helped me in a few other ways. I because I've been um, you know, part-time and I'm not on campus as much, I haven't been really connected with a lot of things in the university. And so I've been actually paying attention more to emails. I mean, I was always reading them, but I wasn't like, oh, this is something I should be doing. So I've started looking at other things to enter, other opportunities in this time I've got before I submit, and those doors are closed. Um, but the other thing is I want to um I've written a book of essays based on my research. And so my plan is to use my prize money to apply for further grants um to develop that into a podcast, the historical podcast, telling the story of Steven Itza. And so being able to say, I received $4,000 from Latrobe University for this prize, and I'm using this for my research will hopefully make me a stronger candidate for funding and create more opportunities in that way in terms of that sharing of my research. Um, and I remember having a conversation with someone, and they're like, but what's the point of the podcast? Are you going to make money from it? And I'm like, no, probably not. But this is the thing. We we're researchers and we're writers and we're creative people, and we come up with ideas that we just want to share. We just want to get out there. And so it's looking for those different ways and different opportunities to share these ideas and share these things that we've discovered that we've learned for other people to learn.
Katherine Firth: 36:15
I love the fact that this whole competition, which is about making people's research more accessible to other people, um, even in a really short way, is going to turn into something like a podcast series that, you know, just really gives people the opportunity to understand these really important, um nuanced, you know, you were, and you with these codes that we were using, these really like jam-packed full of meaning. And we, you know, we rehearsed, is it a Romeo and Juliet romance? Is it a different kind so that we really were getting the story right? Um, that you're going to have a chance to unpack that in the way that I love to listen to really discursive podcasts. I hope people like that too, because this is definitely what we're doing today. Um, but like that we're going to have that that you that that accessibility is just building more accessibility because that's that's amazing. Um, I love that.
Amra Pajalic: 37:18
That's the thing. And I think what I got out of this is I just really wanted to encourage more people who are in my position where you're just working solo on your thesis, on your writing. The only people you're engaging with really on an ongoing basis are your supervisors, and they're the only ones that sort of know everything that's going on. Um, and just you know, having that opportunity to because I loved meeting the other researchers. I loved sitting in the auditorium and hearing all these other researchers speaking about their um writing and their ideas um and and what they had discovered with passion, are connected with some of them on you know, LinkedIn, on social media. And so that that opportunity for connection um is really, you know, key. And just you never know. Like one of the things that I've I've discovered along the way is some of my best ideas have come through just random conversations with people, where I'm I'm just talking about something that is going on with me, and you know, suddenly someone throws something into the conversation and and you know, my brain starts spinning on it. Um, and and that's what these opportunities are also. It's that opportunity to sort of talk to people in in the same position and see, you know, where could it take you? Could it be another collaboration, could be a sharing of ideas? Um, so yeah, it's been it's been really wonderful. And I think confidence booster, which we were talking about also, because um you're sort of like, I think this is important and I think this is life-changing, and just sort of getting that confirmation and hearing from other people after you know the three-minute thesis and and they hear um what you're doing, seeing, you know, people's interest um just confirms, like, yes. And for me, if I had any doubts about making this podcast a reality, uh, they have now very firmly been put to bed um because it's like, no, this is something that is important, this research is important, and keep moving forward towards that goal. So yeah, it's been it's been a wonderful journey, I have to say.
Katherine Firth: 39:34
Oh, that that's that's precisely what we're hoping uh happens for everybody at every stage of the competition. I mean, obviously you've had this and your work is so so important and will have such, you know, such significant reach. So that's um absolutely fantastic that you're feeling that at that level. But even the people who just participate in their school level heats have often said, oh, I had people listening to you really hard for three minutes and then later coming up and saying, I had no idea about this. This sounds really fascinating. Can I hear more about your research? And for the first time, they felt like actually their research matters to people who aren't their supervisor. Yeah, so I think that that's just for every level, it it really does have that really huge power. And obviously, the further up the chain you go, the more that is amplified. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic: 40:32
Well, even when I did the presentation, not the three-minute thesis one, but just where I had to do a my own presentation, um, I ended up being the only one. And so for a whole hour, it was just having a conversation with everyone in the room where I just kept talking about my research because the, you know, questions kept coming and observations. And um, and I had that moment where it was like, oh, this is, you know, this this matters, what I'm doing matters. Um, so you know, that that's the other thing that I really like. I think that this is a new thing now with um uh when you're doing your thesis, you have to actually do presentations either at your um department or, you know, but your supervisors have to be there. And so um there have been those department presentations, there've been virtual ones, there were ones that were happening at like a pub where people were meeting, um, you know, and then now, you know, also at the university. And they really matter too, because when you do have to articulate uh as you are progressing, like obviously every time I've presented, you know, for the first stage, the middle stage, the end stage, the presentation has been different. I've been figuring out what I'm talking about, figuring out my focus. Um, but doing those presentations did help me through that process and did help me get there.
Katherine Firth: 41:59
Yeah, it's so it's almost almost all universities around the world um have some requirement for a presentation right at the end, either as part of your Viber or as a pre-submission um sort of presentation. But it's become more common to expect people to talk as they're going because, as you say, there's this moment, sometimes it's been seven years, like you, and you're like, does anybody care? And that's actually not a feeling anybody should have in the university, because universities are communities of scholars, and we do care. We're so interested. Um, and so it's so powerful to both be creating your ideas in conversation, as you say, but also to get have people like clap at the end and be like, that's great. Like, no, people don't give you enough claps in academic life. You should have more.
Amra Pajalic: 42:50
No, and yeah, like it does really um, I think also one of the things that I was talking to my supervisors and to other people is like that end, it becomes even harder right at the end. Somehow I think that fatigue accumulates. And the fact that you're going through so many drafts, and each time um supervisors are getting more and more sort of, you know, um rigorous in in comments and in feedback. And so somehow it gets harder. And so having these moments where you're connecting and you're having that bit of a boost, it helps you kind of push through and get that momentum and and get that impetus that you really need. Um, because I I did there were quite a few stages where I was like, I'm pulling out, I'm I'm you know, no, I think I'm done. Um and I would have, you know, different people like come on. You know, I've had my daughter, I've had my husband, I've had my supervisors, I've had my, you know, PhD friends. Um, like, oh, come on, you know, you're so close. Are you sure? Let's let's just, you know, one more come on, you know, you can see the light. So um you do sort of need that community around you because even though it is a solo project, it is exhausting.
Katherine Firth: 44:08
It's so hard at the end. And so everything you can do uh that kind of gives you these moments of light, bright encouragement are worth worth pursuing.
Amra Pajalic: 44:21
So I just wanted to check were there any other um tips and tricks, anything that you think that we sort of might want to mention for uh people who are wanting to enter the three-minute thesis.
Katherine Firth: 44:35
Go for it is my main my main advice. Um there's so much to be gained, you know, in terms of understanding your own project, in terms of connecting with other people, in terms of getting encouragement, uh, in terms of building your skills, whether you're interested in academic progression or going out into industry, or just, you know, when people say, Oh, so tell me about your research instead of going, oh, you know, at a barbecue, uh, don't worry about it, nobody would understand it. You're like, actually, I've got a really good version. Do you want to hear it? It's got jokes in it. Um, so whatever, or not in the case in your case, uh, but I have a novel that you could read uh that I highly recommend. Time is between mountains. Uh but these have ways of kind of connecting uh your research to other people. So no, nothing to lose, everything to gain. Um, it's a really affirming process. Uh it's scary, but it's also so rewarding. Uh so definitely go out, have a go. Three-minute thesis. I mean, I've been I've been championing it for years and years because I see just how good it is and just how good it is for candidates. Um so yeah, anybody who's listening, have a go.
Amra Pajalic: 45:49
I agree. I have to say, I, you know, as I said, it was just an academic credit, just, you know, and I was very nervous. I was practicing for like two weeks. Every day I went into a quiet room on the day and I was um practicing it again over and over um to try and lower my nerves. But then when I came to the presentation, because it was so nice and informal and it was just the department, I didn't feel intimidated. I was like, no, I can do this. And I kind of calmed down. Um when I had the um heat where it was like in in the Agora Theater and everyone, that one was nerve-wracking. Um, and that one, you know, but I think the good thing about that, because I was last, I and I was watching all these amazing presenters. I was like, oh, I don't have a hope in hell of winning. Um, and so by the time it came to me, I was like, I'm not winning this thing. I'm just getting a certificate of participation and another academic credit on my CV where I'm like, I did this. Um, and so I went up there and I was like, okay, yeah, that's fine. Uh and so apparently my face was quite comical when I was announced as the winner, where I was like, if there's footage of that, that might be a good laugh for someone. So I guess um the point is you just never know. Like, you know, I play the lotto every week. I'm like, I gotta be in it to win it. And that's how we need to look at some of these things. You you just gotta give it a shot. Um, you know, the worst thing is you won't get you won't win, but at least you'll get the experience out of it. And it is a very valuable experience. Nothing to lose. No. Well, thank you so much, Katherine, for um having the opportunity to have this conversation and to really sort of broaden this discussion about the three-minute thesis and hopefully help some other graduate researchers who are wanting to think about this to make that leap.
Katherine Firth: 47:49
Thank you so much, and thank you so much for having me on uh your amazing podcast. I hope it keeps going from strength to strength and can't wait to hear the next one uh when it comes out uh about your essays and your research.
Amra Pajalic: 48:04
Thank you so much, Katherine. Thank you for listening to my interview with Dr. Katherine Firth about the three-minute thesis competition. I will now be including my three-minute thesis application, and so you'll be able to listen to it. This is the one that went to the Asia Pacific heat, and I will also include a link to the initial La Trobe heat, which is the one that I won. Thank you.
Amra Pajalic: 48:45
It was the first genocide in Europe since the Holocaust. Yet for many it's a footnote if they've heard of it at all. As a Bosnian whose family lived through this war, my perspective is shaped by two things, my personal background and my creative practice as a novelist. My research asks a simple question: who gets to tell the story of Swebodsa and how should it be remembered? One of the most powerful ways in which the story is told is through writing, because literature does not merely reflect history, but actively reshapes it, circulating memories in ways that challenge official silences and dominant narratives. I study two novels by non-Bosnian authors that deal specifically with the Stubadota massacre: The Unquiet Dead by Osmar Zahanak Khan, and Bratzott by Leslie Ann Ryan. Khan explores pluralism propaganda and international failure. Ryan centers peacekeepers but sidelines Bosnian voices. So I look deeper. Into author notes and acknowledgments. How much research did they do? Who did they center? Because when you write about genocide, your choices shape memory. Both authors missed a fundamental part of the Stabodenica story, the urban rule divide that shaped who lived and who didn't in the enclave. I'm doing this because I am a writer myself. Using a creative practice methodology grounded in historical fiction, I've addressed the research question by writing my novel, Time Kneels Between Mountains Set, in besieged Webeduncer during the war. The medium of historical fiction allows me to address the gap that I identified in the existing literature, the urban-rural divide. I crafted a cross-class romance between my crime fighting Romeo and Juliet, Rama, a young man from a rural village, and Selka, an urban-born survivor, and original resident of Slabonica. Their love unfolds against the 1995 genocide. Like Titanic, the characters are fictional, but the tragedy is real. If we don't question how Slabonica is written about, distortion becomes truth. Fiction isn't just made up. It's where we remember, reckon, and rebuild. My thesis exposes misrepresentations and demands accountability. For my family, this genocide is not a footnote, and through my PhD, it has become the novel.
Amra Pajalic: 51:23
Thank you for tuning in to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe and follow for more insights, stories, and inspiration. From my armchair to yours, remember every story begins with a single word.
I'm Amra Pajalic, writer, teacher, and storyteller. Pull up a chair and let's dive into stories about writing, life, and lessons learned. Sharing wisdom from my armchair to yours. You can find the episode show notes, your free episode handouts, and my how to guide at amrait.com slash podcast. And now it's time to dive in.
Amra Pajalic: 00:33
So welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. In today's episode, I'm talking to Dr. Katherine Firth. She's been developing research writers for over 15 years. Currently, she's a senior lecturer in the research education and development team at La Trome University and head of the Lisa Belair House. Is that how I say that? Belair House at the University of Melbourne, co-founder of the award-winning thesis boot camp program. She maintains a writing blog, Research Degree Insiders. And she's co-author of the books How to Fix Your Academic Writing Trouble, Your PhD Survival Guide, and Level Up Your Essays. And her most recent book is Writing Well and Being Well for Your PhD and Beyond. Welcome, Katherine.
Katherine Firth: 01:20
Thank you so much for having me today, Amra.
Amra Pajalic: 01:22
Thank you. Now I'm uh talking to you in my academic life and in my academic journey. So I'm just going to read a little bit of my academic uh introduction and bio. So I'm an award-winning author, educator, but I'm also a PhD researcher of Bosnian heritage, exploring representations of the Bosnian genocide in fiction. I'm blending storytelling with historical analysis to confront dehumanization and preserve of a cultural memory. My novel, Time Kneels Between Mountains, and my accompanying essay collection explores the legacy of the surveillance of genocide. And I'm here because I was awarded a first prize in the La Trode University three-minute thesis competition. And it was a fierce competition. There were 10 amazing competitors. And I won a 4,000 prize to help my further my academic journey, which I'm very excited about. So we're here to talk about the three-minute thesis program and what it is and what it does. Get your perspective as someone who supports students in that journey. I just want to get my perspective as someone who has stumbled into it as a student and won this amazing prize and yeah, to sort of contextualize that. So first of all, I thought, can you um tell us what is the three-minute thesis competition?
Katherine Firth: 02:50
Thank you, Amra. And before I do, to say congratulations again. Well done. You were absolutely like it was such a fierce competition. There was real, there was real, really uh complex debates about who would win. So to have um to have achieved that is a really great outcome. Um and also it's lovely to get to talk to each other again as we're going to um kind of describe through this the process of preparing for the university finals was quite intensive. We spent quite a lot of time together. So it's really great to catch up just this a little bit later and uh see how it's all going and uh reflect on what was a really intense um experience, I think, for everybody involved. Certainly it was for me. Um I personally have been involved in supporting three-minute thesis uh preparation for about 15 years now. Um, the and the the whole program has been going on for a lot longer than that. Um so the three-minute thesis was invented by the University of Queensland uh nearly two decades ago. Um, it's become uh first a national and now an international uh competition uh culminating uh in the Asia Pacific finals, which have only just taken place. Um the competition is simultaneously extraordinarily simple and incredibly challenging. The challenge is for PhD candidates, so people in their second or later year of their PhD, to explain their research in three minutes or less. PhDs are 80 or more thousand words, they take three or four years full-time study to do. They're done by people who already have school, undergraduate, master's, and quite a bit of uh, you know, high degree by research, PhD level research already in the bag. And at that moment, we're like, so can you just like do that really quickly and do that in a way that somebody who's not in your discipline, not studying what you're studying, not an expert in that way, can follow. So we have um at the finals at La Trobe, for example, those 10 candidates, they came from biomedicine. We had a person who was doing a thing about like how people in farms work out what flies and other insects are eating stuff. We had a person who was looking at like how dieting was impacting male mice' brain power. We had a person who was trying to um help midwives uh on placement be more effective. Like everything was being covered. And then we had you, Amara, and you were telling your story, um, both of your um about your novel, Time Kneels Between Mountains, uh, and uh the context and uh wider research you were doing around how that sits uh in in literature. So, you know, creative writing, uh literary studies, recent history. Um so all these different kinds of things are happening, and people have to be able to understand them wherever they come from.
Amra Pajalic: 06:14
Yeah. Well, I I kind of stumbled into it because I had to do my presentation um to, you know, like come in and to the department. And then they were like, okay, you know, we're asking for people to enter the three-minute competition at the department level. Um, and because I'm fine, I was finally at a point where I could see my thesis, I actually had a a bit of clarity about what was going on with it because that's for a long time I felt like wading through mud, where it's like, what am I trying to do here? What am I trying to write? I just entered it because I thought, oh, this is a good academic credit. Um, because I'm thinking about you know my future academic journey and trying to um, you know, get into the university sector. And I was like, oh, this is a great opportunity just for an academic credit, just you know, to speak at the department. And there were some prizes where there was like, you know, $500 um first prize and you know, 300 and 200, I think. Um and so I was just thought, oh, that's great. That's that's I didn't even know that there was more after that. So when I did the actual, you know, so I practiced, I rehearsed, I thought, oh, this is good as a teacher, that I can talk to my high school students that I teach about oral presentations and preparing them. I'm always telling them cue cards and you know, practice and all of this. So I thought, okay, this is good, you know, gave me that extra reason to do it. So um I did that presentation and then they were like, oh, you've won. And then they're like, and now do you wish to represent the department in the next heat? And I'm like, oh, there's a a next heat.
Katherine Firth: 07:58
And there is, there are so many rounds because there was there's the department. So at Lutrobe, as in most universities, there's like schools and departments do them, and then it goes up to the university finals, and then it goes on to the Asia Pacific semifinals, uh, all of which you got into. Uh, and then the finals, um, yeah, so it's it's like it's layers and layers and layers. Amazing.
Amra Pajalic: 08:26
It is, and then also I didn't realize what a big deal it was. Um, because you know, when when I got the um department one and then was in touch with um with Anthony, who was who what what uh can you explain Anthony's position?
Katherine Firth: 08:42
Oh, he's the director of graduate research. So every department has um an academic who helps uh coordinate all graduate research sort of training, ethics, admin, uh works with all the doctoral supervisors, uh is a first port of call for um students who need to go above their supervisor for whatever reason, uh, and interfaces with the central uh graduate services for things like policy changes and um and things like please can you find me a whole group of people to do three-minute thesis because uh that's a really important part of what they do.
Amra Pajalic: 09:22
Yeah. Yeah. And so he was like, okay, now you're going to do one-on-one coaching. And so that's where you came in, where um I met you. And so we spent like an intense hour um where I was reading my speech to you and going through it line by line. Um, and we were tightening and looking at, in a sense, um, what was interesting for me was looking for codes for how to sort of um tell what the the story of my thesis, but how to use coded language. So I remember we were talking about, you know, this romance that I had, and you're like Romeo and Juliet romance. And as soon as we use that code, we know that it's a boomed romance in a sense.
Katherine Firth: 10:05
Yeah, because there was a stage where I was like, did they get together and live happily ever after in the end? And you're like, no, no, that's not my story.
Amra Pajalic: 10:14
Yeah. And so it was really fascinating because um, you know, for me to write that first speech, I had to go online and I found like an outline um that I could use to write the structure. And then I was editing and and, you know, really trying to get it down. Um, and then it was just interesting how we really then went into it further, word by word, um, to really kind of strengthen every bit of it. Um, and then also there was a little bit of you know rehearsing with you, um, and you giving me pointers. And the other thing that was important and I sort of didn't realize was um the slide and the slide. So you only get one static slide that you can have as your background. Um, so that was another really important thing that you had to think about and how how will that you know connect with the audience.
Katherine Firth: 11:11
Um what was actually really interesting is that the way that we worked together, every person I worked with, what they needed was totally different. So I had some people where um what was what they kind of really needed was more of like the emotional heart of the story. Or I had other people where the things that weren't clear were really obvious things. I was like, you've used a whole load of uh acronyms there. I don't know what they mean, no one else will know what they mean. Uh, with some of the science people. Um I had a lot of time with um with Lockie, who was doing the one about the the flies and other uh agricultural insects, getting him to explain it to me, and then me trying to explain it back to him. And he was like, no. And we had to go around a few times, and then he was like a data and I was like, okay, so that's the version that people who are non-experts will be able to understand. Because he was turning all of these insects into some kind of DNA soup and then doing maths to it. And I was like, I really was struggling to understand that. But in the end, we got to a point where I can now tell you that he was putting insects into a DNA soup and then doing maths with it, and that will tell you whether or not you've got lots of kinds of insects eating your fruit and vegetable. Um, so some of the people, that was what they needed. You, because you're a writer, were really already ready to do that kind of line edit. But that's the thing that only creative writers already know how to do. So it was also really interesting that we worked, the way we worked together was much more the way I work um as a writer myself, but that sort of really line level, uh, whereas other people needed something different. And so we did something different.
Amra Pajalic: 13:02
Yeah. So what what I'm hearing, in a sense, like that's the challenge because you're doing that to your department first. They understand what you're talking about. Um, and you know, you you don't realize, in a sense, if you have not translated it enough for the layperson, for someone who knows nothing about your research, and you have got these three minutes where you have to tell them that.
Katherine Firth: 13:28
Absolutely, that they understand it and also that they've already bought in that you're doing it. We have a cancer research center. Everybody in the cancer research center absolutely believes that killing cancer is the most important thing. They've all already given their lives to it. Um, and so that was that wasn't a hard sell. That's also not usually a hard sell. Most people uh agree that that's really important. Whereas we have other kinds of um projects where people had to explain. Actually, my research might not sound like it's very interesting, might not sound like it's really relevant, might not sound like it's important, but actually it is. And here's how um, even though you've never thought about it before, it's actually really relevant to you.
Amra Pajalic: 14:11
Yeah. So what would you, in terms of people who like me, stumbled into it and were like, okay, I'm just gonna do it for my department as you know, the academic credit, how would you um advise them to sort of start the process? Like for me, it was finding the structure for um how to write the the thesis and sort of putting it together based on that. What other tips do you have?
Katherine Firth: 14:40
The main thing that is um is important is really to understand why it matters to you. Human beings really respond to other humans. Um, they really respond to your authenticity, to your feelings, to your passion. Uh and so if you've worked out what really why you got into it or remember why you got into it perhaps years and years ago, um, then that can really help you uh connect to the kind of you know electric third rail, the kind of heart of the story. Um and that then um I'll go a long way listening to people who I have no idea what you're talking about, but I know you care. And that really is something that can bring audiences with them. Um when we talk about when we run the workshops, so there were workshops about this uh that we run to support that. We've got an online module that kind of gives advice about it. So we we sort of also give some technical advice around it. Um, and we definitely uh recommend that people spend time to tell to identify what their story is, give some kind of beginning, some kind of middle, some kind of end, um, and to start and end with something that's really strong. One of the candidates for the finals didn't make a time to see me one-on-one. And it was, I was chatting with my colleagues later, and they were like, was that the person who didn't come? Because they could guess. And what was really obvious about it was that his beginning and his end were not as strong as the people who'd really rehearsed. Start with a joke, start with a like unbelievably shocking and um surprising or you know, enormous uh fact. Start with how it relates to you, start with why it matters, those kinds of things. People want, are really keen to come along if you'll just give them a way in. So really give them a strong way in and then really kind of return to that uh in the conclusion so they can remember it uh when you've walked off the stage, because then they can remember what it was that you said. So when they're voting for you, they're like, oh yes, that one, that was really strong. That really um that was really significant for me.
Amra Pajalic: 16:59
So there's also, I'm sure every university will sort of have some of the things that you were talking about in terms of the modules, in terms of opportunities for um to talk to people. So, you know, getting those opportunities, taking advantage of them uh is something that we're really sort of saying is is pivotal. Yeah.
Katherine Firth: 17:18
Absolutely, absolutely. It's like starting, you know, you don't have to start with a blank page, you don't have to do it on your own. It's been going forever now. You can also jump online. Um, UQ has really great uh resources, has videos of previous winners, had a whole range of things. Most universities will also have that. So you're not starting with like, what do I even do? You can go and listen to a whole load of people whose work sort of looks a bit like yours and go, oh, that's how they've tackled it. I could do something similar.
Amra Pajalic: 17:50
Yeah. Well, I was very silly and I didn't do any of that.
Katherine Firth: 17:54
So I was completely also break the rules, do whatever, have a go, because as you can see, even just stumbling into it, it's easy enough. The idea of it, I've just got to explain it in three minutes. I mean, it was challenging, but it also wasn't um impossible.
Amra Pajalic: 18:16
No, no, I think uh I mean the advantage for me, as you said, is that I'm a writer, and so that creative background and the writing part held me in good stead. And then also I've had a lot of experience with public speaking. So I came in with those two strengths, but I did um really find the opportunity to get the coaching from you uh and then later with Anthony for the final and that refining um really, you know, was invaluable, really made a difference. I just also wanted to talk about in terms of the um, you know, we had the department heat, so that was just in a room in the university with, you know, people who showed up. But um, when we had the actual lecturer date, like that was fun because we had um a rehearsal beforehand in the actual space to see the auditorium. And then on the day there was live streaming and recording and you as the MC. So yeah, I thought I just wanted you to contextualize that also.
Katherine Firth: 19:24
Absolutely. So the three-minute thesis is one of our flagship uh whole of university research uh development uh events. Um and so, and it's been a little bit pre-COVID, it was massive, it was bigger than Benho. There's no way you wouldn't have known about it. It's gone a bit quieter, you know, it all went online for a few years, and then we were sort of bringing it back. Uh and this year, I was like, no, we're going all out. We got good budget for it. Uh, so the graduate research school really kind of uh invested in it. We searched reams of different rooms at La Trobe and settled on the Agoras Theatre, uh, the cinema, rather. So for people who don't know, uh La Trobe University has had uh a whole theatre and a whole um sort of art cinema. Um, people, I was just talking to somebody who I was at a leadership course with the other day, who was like, yeah, actually, I got into film. He's now had a you know global streaming, film, television um career because I got into film going to the ag cinema for five bucks uh back in the 90s. So like these really beautiful stories, which people often tell me about their connection to this space. So, but it's a full cinema. Huge, loads of chairs, beautiful space right in the center uh of campus. We did a full dress rehearsal because I was like, nobody, I used to do, I used to do student-like productions. So I was like, you need to know, will my shoes make weird sounds on the floor? How, if I wear these, this outfit, how will the microphone like clip to my lapel? Because everybody has worn the shirt that like got pulled off by the microphone or that made weird sort of pushy noises as you were trying to present. What does it feel like to present to this space? But we were doing it with nobody in the audience. And on the day, there were like 80 people in the audience. There were, I think, three different video cameras, there was a photographer or two, there were two photographers, in fact. So it was like it was bigger than Ben Her. Um, and for most people, um, especially either the biggest thing that they'd done like that in a very long time. Um, and for some people, the only time they'd ever stood up in what was basically a television audience, a light television audience, um, broadcasting right across the state. La Trobe has uh campuses right across Victoria and across the world. We had um audience from all over the globe. So it was a really, really full-scale event. Um and it's yeah, and then and then we take video from that event, and that video goes off uh to the finals, which are all up on the YouTube website. Um, yeah, so it'd be it's just it's a really big, really full-scale uh experience with catering afterwards, um, and is one of the things that we really see as one of the few ways that we bring people together physically um and synchronously uh across the trope.
Amra Pajalic: 22:33
Yeah, I mean, I was so relieved I was there for the dress rehearsal and I I really had that chance to prepare. And also we had a conversation where um my topic is quite dark and you know it's about genocide, and I was like, put me on last because I bring the mood down. And so I think that worked very well.
Katherine Firth: 22:54
Um, but yeah, absolutely. There was an original one where we had yours and then the next person's story had lots of jokes in it, and it was not good.
Amra Pajalic: 23:03
Yeah, no, um, yeah, so it was yeah, so that that's the other thing that you sort of need to take into account, those transitions in terms of mood and and how to, because yeah, some of the speakers were um, everyone was so charismatic. I was completely shocked that I won. And the other thing um that I wanted to talk about is I could not memorize my speech to save my life. And I think, especially being a writer, I'm very tied to like every single word having to be exactly perfect to the way that I wrote it down. And so for me, trying to actually memorize the whole thing and go in without anything was not something I could do. Um, but so many participants did um just get up there and did not have any um aids. And so we had that conversation where I was like, can I have my cue cards? So I just thought, um, yeah, if you could sort of flag that and talk that through a bit.
Katherine Firth: 24:02
Absolutely. So the rules say you can have uh memory aids, so cue cards, your full script, uh, and those are absolutely permissible. Um, we usually recommend that you don't because it's quite difficult if you're going to, you know, speak up, speak out, project to the audience, um, you know, make eye contact if you want to gesture, if you're like me, um, and you make lots of hand gestures, uh, the chances that I would throw my cue cards um is um I used to do debating at school and absolutely Katherine of the debate team, my cue cards, the number of times I was like, oh no, they have gone flying, uh was quite common. Uh so there's some of that kind of stuff where we're like, look, if you can memorize it, there's a lot of benefit to it. Um also for most people's talk, the big, your big points are much more important uh than any of the details about how every particular word kind of interlocks with every other word. But I think that kind of goes back to both the sensitivity of your topic and the way that we were workshopping your talk from the beginning. You know, that we were really interested in the words and and the kind of exact pacing of the way you talked about what you did. So for you to wing it would have been much harder than somebody else who you know had their talking points, but if they were a little bit fudgy in how they got from A to B, it was probably not going to be quite as as significant. Um yeah. So you can have a memory aid, um, but we often recommend that you at least try to go without.
Amra Pajalic: 25:46
Yeah, so I um just wanted to talk through the technical aspects of my memory aids. Um so I did my speech in Word 18 font, nice and big, because I can't read things without my glasses, so they had to be nice and big. I printed off um a few cards about this size, um, so on the 10 by 10 centimetres. And then I did staple them, I numbered them and I stapled them so that I would not lose the order and they would not fall out of my hands because that's something, yes, I was nervous about. And this is the advantage of being a high school teacher and seeing students presenting and some of the pitfalls that they had. So afterwards of speaking to the judges and I I watched my speech and I actually did not look at them that much. I was able to maintain eye contact significantly. I had actually um rote learned quite a bit of it, but I just could not um, you know, trust myself not to have that exact order and to have that exact flow. And also, yes, the language was very important in terms of the words that I used. So for me, that was the best decision, and I managed to win with that. So um I guess that's one thing to think about in terms of what your speech is like. Is it something where you can tell the story and capture the general story of it? And there were also people who were using their um slide as the memory aid, where they were actually using it to tell the story of their thesis, um, and they were able to do that. So, you know, I guess the the point to be made is there is no one way of doing it. Each thesis and each topic and each um discipline will inform the way that you might want to do it. But I just want to make others like me feel okay about the fact that yes, you might need uh a memory aid. And then um we recorded again um for the Asia Pacific uh final. So I worked with Anthony on that draft also, and I recorded that on my phone, and I have an app that is um an auto cue app. And so I was able to revise with him again, uh, put it on the app and record myself on my phone and do another version that was tweaked again for the final. Um, and most of that was still pretty much the same, but there were some changes. But because it was an auto queue and I re-recorded it, um, and so that's the other thing that you know it might change each time. If you are progressing, you do have that opportunity to refine, to improve.
Katherine Firth: 28:38
And you really should. Um, people who do the same thing, the thing that will win at your school heat, um, everybody else is revising and improving it. So you absolutely want uh to keep going uh to improve it for these bigger and bigger audiences. It occurs to me that as you were talking, that one of the big differences is that uh science researchers, when they go to conferences, tend to give conference papers where they talk to their slides. So actually the big points are up on the slide and then they sort of talk to them. Whereas when I go to conferences, I have a full script and have always had a full script. That's just normal in my discipline. And people say, oh gosh, it's really boring when people read stuff out. And I'm like, no, it's not, because we're good at it. Uh, you know, we really do, we present with energy, we present with, you know, real passion, but we know that the words are really the right words because that's how we communicate our research. So I think that's the other thing is that if you're from a discipline where presenting with passion from a full script is a thing you're really good at, you may find that that's a really great strategy for something like 3MT.
Amra Pajalic: 29:53
Yeah, and I think like with writing, with all of my stuff, you know, even all the writing things, it is it is very much because it is about the words. And I I have now presented at a few conferences. And, you know, I do have the slides of some quotes, some key quotes or key images. And you mark those in your speech so you know to click next. But it is, it is very much the way that it is structured and it is the way reading it. I also want to talk about this. Is what I've been really interested in, because I I I knew generally, like I don't really know much about academia. I'm doing a PhD or I've been doing it seven years part-time. So I've been very disconnected from uni life because it's a part-time thing. I work um day job. And so I did it because I'm like, I know that if I want to get into academia, I need credits, I need to have connections with the university. So that's why I entered it. So I guess I just wanted to also get your perspective in terms of what are the opportunities that it affords? What, what, um, you know, how does it help?
Katherine Firth: 31:03
So it helps in such a lot of different ways. Um, in terms of uh specifically um academic positions, look, anytime you win anything, yay, that's a that's a little trophy on your shelf. So if you are entering it and you do do well, that does make a difference. We often, though, really uh talk about it in a whole range uh of other ways that it connects you to people. So you go to your school uh heat, uh you talk about your research in front of your peers, suddenly a whole load of people who had no idea who you were, what you were doing, have heard about your research. Uh so that then when they bump into you in the graduate common room, when they walk past you in the corridor, instead of just being like, hi, um, they can be like, Hi, AMRA, how's is the book out yet? How's it selling? What's the what's going on? You know, what's your next project? Because they actually have something to talk to you about. So it really builds uh what we call intellectual climate, some kind of you know, connections between researchers and builds your profile within that uh smaller um space. We know that in uh conferences, lots of conferences now have things like poster competitions uh or panel discussions. In those, having three to five minutes to kind of talk about your research is really normal. So for a lot of people, it's really helpful to get out there and kind of talk about what they're doing to uh their industry, to other researchers in their discipline across the nation, across the world. We know that industry partners are not very interested in reading 80,000 words of anything, um, but we absolutely know that they're often asking researchers to come in, uh give a really quick pitch or explanation to potential investors or to you know um participants or to clients or customers or patients or whatever the people might be. And so the ability to walk in and go, here, you know nothing about this, but I'm going to tell it to you in a really engaging way in about three minutes is a really powerful tool. And we know it's a really powerful tool in the media. Um, where one of the ways that um researchers often find really challenging is we're discovering this amazing stuff. And it's really hard to explain to other people what we're doing, where are people getting their information from? Podcasts, newspaper articles, little videos on YouTube or Instagram. The ability, therefore, to go on, do something really engaging uh in that sort of short snap type way is also something that really helps people get their story out to the wider, the wider public who might be interested. Yeah, so so many ways that it's useful.
Amra Pajalic: 33:59
Yeah, well, I found for me, it really helped me restructuring my thesis because using that structure to develop the three minute, um, I realized that one of my chapters I had not addressed my argument adequately. And then also some of the codes that we had developed, the the shortcut codes, um, I was able to use as my signposting and sort of look at the flow of of what I was writing. Um, so it helped me with that, but it also um helped me in a few other ways. I because I've been um, you know, part-time and I'm not on campus as much, I haven't been really connected with a lot of things in the university. And so I've been actually paying attention more to emails. I mean, I was always reading them, but I wasn't like, oh, this is something I should be doing. So I've started looking at other things to enter, other opportunities in this time I've got before I submit, and those doors are closed. Um, but the other thing is I want to um I've written a book of essays based on my research. And so my plan is to use my prize money to apply for further grants um to develop that into a podcast, the historical podcast, telling the story of Steven Itza. And so being able to say, I received $4,000 from Latrobe University for this prize, and I'm using this for my research will hopefully make me a stronger candidate for funding and create more opportunities in that way in terms of that sharing of my research. Um, and I remember having a conversation with someone, and they're like, but what's the point of the podcast? Are you going to make money from it? And I'm like, no, probably not. But this is the thing. We we're researchers and we're writers and we're creative people, and we come up with ideas that we just want to share. We just want to get out there. And so it's looking for those different ways and different opportunities to share these ideas and share these things that we've discovered that we've learned for other people to learn.
Katherine Firth: 36:15
I love the fact that this whole competition, which is about making people's research more accessible to other people, um, even in a really short way, is going to turn into something like a podcast series that, you know, just really gives people the opportunity to understand these really important, um nuanced, you know, you were, and you with these codes that we were using, these really like jam-packed full of meaning. And we, you know, we rehearsed, is it a Romeo and Juliet romance? Is it a different kind so that we really were getting the story right? Um, that you're going to have a chance to unpack that in the way that I love to listen to really discursive podcasts. I hope people like that too, because this is definitely what we're doing today. Um, but like that we're going to have that that you that that accessibility is just building more accessibility because that's that's amazing. Um, I love that.
Amra Pajalic: 37:18
That's the thing. And I think what I got out of this is I just really wanted to encourage more people who are in my position where you're just working solo on your thesis, on your writing. The only people you're engaging with really on an ongoing basis are your supervisors, and they're the only ones that sort of know everything that's going on. Um, and just you know, having that opportunity to because I loved meeting the other researchers. I loved sitting in the auditorium and hearing all these other researchers speaking about their um writing and their ideas um and and what they had discovered with passion, are connected with some of them on you know, LinkedIn, on social media. And so that that opportunity for connection um is really, you know, key. And just you never know. Like one of the things that I've I've discovered along the way is some of my best ideas have come through just random conversations with people, where I'm I'm just talking about something that is going on with me, and you know, suddenly someone throws something into the conversation and and you know, my brain starts spinning on it. Um, and and that's what these opportunities are also. It's that opportunity to sort of talk to people in in the same position and see, you know, where could it take you? Could it be another collaboration, could be a sharing of ideas? Um, so yeah, it's been it's been really wonderful. And I think confidence booster, which we were talking about also, because um you're sort of like, I think this is important and I think this is life-changing, and just sort of getting that confirmation and hearing from other people after you know the three-minute thesis and and they hear um what you're doing, seeing, you know, people's interest um just confirms, like, yes. And for me, if I had any doubts about making this podcast a reality, uh, they have now very firmly been put to bed um because it's like, no, this is something that is important, this research is important, and keep moving forward towards that goal. So yeah, it's been it's been a wonderful journey, I have to say.
Katherine Firth: 39:34
Oh, that that's that's precisely what we're hoping uh happens for everybody at every stage of the competition. I mean, obviously you've had this and your work is so so important and will have such, you know, such significant reach. So that's um absolutely fantastic that you're feeling that at that level. But even the people who just participate in their school level heats have often said, oh, I had people listening to you really hard for three minutes and then later coming up and saying, I had no idea about this. This sounds really fascinating. Can I hear more about your research? And for the first time, they felt like actually their research matters to people who aren't their supervisor. Yeah, so I think that that's just for every level, it it really does have that really huge power. And obviously, the further up the chain you go, the more that is amplified. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic: 40:32
Well, even when I did the presentation, not the three-minute thesis one, but just where I had to do a my own presentation, um, I ended up being the only one. And so for a whole hour, it was just having a conversation with everyone in the room where I just kept talking about my research because the, you know, questions kept coming and observations. And um, and I had that moment where it was like, oh, this is, you know, this this matters, what I'm doing matters. Um, so you know, that that's the other thing that I really like. I think that this is a new thing now with um uh when you're doing your thesis, you have to actually do presentations either at your um department or, you know, but your supervisors have to be there. And so um there have been those department presentations, there've been virtual ones, there were ones that were happening at like a pub where people were meeting, um, you know, and then now, you know, also at the university. And they really matter too, because when you do have to articulate uh as you are progressing, like obviously every time I've presented, you know, for the first stage, the middle stage, the end stage, the presentation has been different. I've been figuring out what I'm talking about, figuring out my focus. Um, but doing those presentations did help me through that process and did help me get there.
Katherine Firth: 41:59
Yeah, it's so it's almost almost all universities around the world um have some requirement for a presentation right at the end, either as part of your Viber or as a pre-submission um sort of presentation. But it's become more common to expect people to talk as they're going because, as you say, there's this moment, sometimes it's been seven years, like you, and you're like, does anybody care? And that's actually not a feeling anybody should have in the university, because universities are communities of scholars, and we do care. We're so interested. Um, and so it's so powerful to both be creating your ideas in conversation, as you say, but also to get have people like clap at the end and be like, that's great. Like, no, people don't give you enough claps in academic life. You should have more.
Amra Pajalic: 42:50
No, and yeah, like it does really um, I think also one of the things that I was talking to my supervisors and to other people is like that end, it becomes even harder right at the end. Somehow I think that fatigue accumulates. And the fact that you're going through so many drafts, and each time um supervisors are getting more and more sort of, you know, um rigorous in in comments and in feedback. And so somehow it gets harder. And so having these moments where you're connecting and you're having that bit of a boost, it helps you kind of push through and get that momentum and and get that impetus that you really need. Um, because I I did there were quite a few stages where I was like, I'm pulling out, I'm I'm you know, no, I think I'm done. Um and I would have, you know, different people like come on. You know, I've had my daughter, I've had my husband, I've had my supervisors, I've had my, you know, PhD friends. Um, like, oh, come on, you know, you're so close. Are you sure? Let's let's just, you know, one more come on, you know, you can see the light. So um you do sort of need that community around you because even though it is a solo project, it is exhausting.
Katherine Firth: 44:08
It's so hard at the end. And so everything you can do uh that kind of gives you these moments of light, bright encouragement are worth worth pursuing.
Amra Pajalic: 44:21
So I just wanted to check were there any other um tips and tricks, anything that you think that we sort of might want to mention for uh people who are wanting to enter the three-minute thesis.
Katherine Firth: 44:35
Go for it is my main my main advice. Um there's so much to be gained, you know, in terms of understanding your own project, in terms of connecting with other people, in terms of getting encouragement, uh, in terms of building your skills, whether you're interested in academic progression or going out into industry, or just, you know, when people say, Oh, so tell me about your research instead of going, oh, you know, at a barbecue, uh, don't worry about it, nobody would understand it. You're like, actually, I've got a really good version. Do you want to hear it? It's got jokes in it. Um, so whatever, or not in the case in your case, uh, but I have a novel that you could read uh that I highly recommend. Time is between mountains. Uh but these have ways of kind of connecting uh your research to other people. So no, nothing to lose, everything to gain. Um, it's a really affirming process. Uh it's scary, but it's also so rewarding. Uh so definitely go out, have a go. Three-minute thesis. I mean, I've been I've been championing it for years and years because I see just how good it is and just how good it is for candidates. Um so yeah, anybody who's listening, have a go.
Amra Pajalic: 45:49
I agree. I have to say, I, you know, as I said, it was just an academic credit, just, you know, and I was very nervous. I was practicing for like two weeks. Every day I went into a quiet room on the day and I was um practicing it again over and over um to try and lower my nerves. But then when I came to the presentation, because it was so nice and informal and it was just the department, I didn't feel intimidated. I was like, no, I can do this. And I kind of calmed down. Um when I had the um heat where it was like in in the Agora Theater and everyone, that one was nerve-wracking. Um, and that one, you know, but I think the good thing about that, because I was last, I and I was watching all these amazing presenters. I was like, oh, I don't have a hope in hell of winning. Um, and so by the time it came to me, I was like, I'm not winning this thing. I'm just getting a certificate of participation and another academic credit on my CV where I'm like, I did this. Um, and so I went up there and I was like, okay, yeah, that's fine. Uh and so apparently my face was quite comical when I was announced as the winner, where I was like, if there's footage of that, that might be a good laugh for someone. So I guess um the point is you just never know. Like, you know, I play the lotto every week. I'm like, I gotta be in it to win it. And that's how we need to look at some of these things. You you just gotta give it a shot. Um, you know, the worst thing is you won't get you won't win, but at least you'll get the experience out of it. And it is a very valuable experience. Nothing to lose. No. Well, thank you so much, Katherine, for um having the opportunity to have this conversation and to really sort of broaden this discussion about the three-minute thesis and hopefully help some other graduate researchers who are wanting to think about this to make that leap.
Katherine Firth: 47:49
Thank you so much, and thank you so much for having me on uh your amazing podcast. I hope it keeps going from strength to strength and can't wait to hear the next one uh when it comes out uh about your essays and your research.
Amra Pajalic: 48:04
Thank you so much, Katherine. Thank you for listening to my interview with Dr. Katherine Firth about the three-minute thesis competition. I will now be including my three-minute thesis application, and so you'll be able to listen to it. This is the one that went to the Asia Pacific heat, and I will also include a link to the initial La Trobe heat, which is the one that I won. Thank you.
Amra Pajalic: 48:45
It was the first genocide in Europe since the Holocaust. Yet for many it's a footnote if they've heard of it at all. As a Bosnian whose family lived through this war, my perspective is shaped by two things, my personal background and my creative practice as a novelist. My research asks a simple question: who gets to tell the story of Swebodsa and how should it be remembered? One of the most powerful ways in which the story is told is through writing, because literature does not merely reflect history, but actively reshapes it, circulating memories in ways that challenge official silences and dominant narratives. I study two novels by non-Bosnian authors that deal specifically with the Stubadota massacre: The Unquiet Dead by Osmar Zahanak Khan, and Bratzott by Leslie Ann Ryan. Khan explores pluralism propaganda and international failure. Ryan centers peacekeepers but sidelines Bosnian voices. So I look deeper. Into author notes and acknowledgments. How much research did they do? Who did they center? Because when you write about genocide, your choices shape memory. Both authors missed a fundamental part of the Stabodenica story, the urban rule divide that shaped who lived and who didn't in the enclave. I'm doing this because I am a writer myself. Using a creative practice methodology grounded in historical fiction, I've addressed the research question by writing my novel, Time Kneels Between Mountains Set, in besieged Webeduncer during the war. The medium of historical fiction allows me to address the gap that I identified in the existing literature, the urban-rural divide. I crafted a cross-class romance between my crime fighting Romeo and Juliet, Rama, a young man from a rural village, and Selka, an urban-born survivor, and original resident of Slabonica. Their love unfolds against the 1995 genocide. Like Titanic, the characters are fictional, but the tragedy is real. If we don't question how Slabonica is written about, distortion becomes truth. Fiction isn't just made up. It's where we remember, reckon, and rebuild. My thesis exposes misrepresentations and demands accountability. For my family, this genocide is not a footnote, and through my PhD, it has become the novel.
Amra Pajalic: 51:23
Thank you for tuning in to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe and follow for more insights, stories, and inspiration. From my armchair to yours, remember every story begins with a single word.