39-What My Father's Alzheimer's Taught Me About Memory (A Novelist on What's Worth Holding On To), interviewing John Infortunio
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You can listen above or on your favourite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
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You can listen above or on your favourite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
Show notes
John Infortunio, a lifelong Brooklynite and author, shares his experiences as a teacher and writer, drawing on his upbringing and career in education. The conversation delves into the impact of teaching on writing, the depth of relationships, and the lessons learned from childhood. The conversation covers the craft of writing, the impact of memory and Alzheimer's, and the therapeutic nature of writing. It also delves into the experience of sharing personal stories and the importance of finding inspiration. The conversation concludes with advice for first-time novelists and details on where to find the author's books.
Takeaways
Chapters
Takeaways
- Teaching as a career provides a deep sense of fulfillment and connection with young people.
- The act of writing can tap into personal experiences and relationships, shaping the narrative and character development. Craft of Writing
- Impact of Memory and Alzheimer's
- Therapeutic Nature of Writing
- Sharing Personal Stories
- Finding Inspiration
- Advice for First-Time Novelists
Chapters
- 00:00 The Journey of an Educator
- 03:23 Teaching and Writing: A Symbiotic Relationship
- 16:16 The Impact of Relationships and Childhood Experiences
- 23:26 The Art of Writing and Teaching
- 26:35 The Craft of Writing
- 30:24 The Impact of Memory and Alzheimer's
- 34:11 Therapeutic Nature of Writing and Sharing Personal Stories
- 42:50 Finding Inspiration and Advice for First-Time Novelists
Connect with John Infortunio
|
John Infortunio is a lifelong Brooklynite and the author of two emotionally charged thrillers, Destroyed by the Events of the Day and Today Was Tomorrow. Raised in Windsor Terrace before later settling in Bay Ridge, John draws on the neighborhoods, and the Italian and Irish culture, that shaped his upbringing. A graduate of Bishop Ford High School and St. Francis College, he spent sixteen years teaching English, History, and Philosophy at his alma mater, also serving as Athletic Director and coaching a championship basketball team — a career in education that now spans more than three decades.
His debut novel, Destroyed by the Events of the Day, was a fifteen-year passion project centered on a prep-school teacher whose name was inspired by John's real-life twin brother. His second novel, Today Was Tomorrow, released this year, draws on his own experience with his father's Alzheimer's and follows a son piecing together his family's hidden truths. John is currently writing his third novel while continuing his career in education. He lives with his son, Kevin, and outside of writing enjoys music, theater, and travel. Website: Instagram: @johninfortunio |
Transcript of episode
Amra Pajalic (00:01)
Welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. John Infortunio is a lifelong Brooklynite and author of two emotionally charged thrillers, destroyed by the events of the day and today was tomorrow. Raised in Windsor Terrace before later settling in Bay Ridge, John draws on the neighbourhoods and the Italian and Irish culture that shaped his upbringing. A graduate of Bishop Ford High School and St. Francis College,
He spent 16 years teaching English history and philosophy at his alma mater, also serving as athletic director and coaching a championship basketball team, a career in education that now spans more than three decades. His debut novel, Destroyed by the Events of the Day, was a 15-year passion project centered on a prep school teacher whose name was inspired by John's real-life twin brother. His second novel, Today Was Tomorrow, released this year.
draws on his own experience with his father's Alzheimer's, and follows a son piecing together his family's hidden truths. John is currently writing his third novel while continuing his career in education. He lives with his son Kevin, outside of writing, enjoys music, theatre and travel. Welcome, John.
John Infortunio (01:14)
Thank
you so much. I appreciate that amazing intro and I'm really very,
Amra Pajalic (01:18)
I know it's
John Infortunio (01:20)
very happy to be on on here with you, I have to say.
Amra Pajalic (01:24)
Well, I'm excited to talk to you because as I was saying just before we hit record, we
John Infortunio (01:27)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (01:29)
are both teachers, we are both writers. but more than that, we are both teachers teaching at our former high school.
John Infortunio (01:37)
Yes. that's it was it was quite an experience, you know. I went to Bishop Ford High School. you know, I spent some amazing years there and then I did go back after a very short lived stint in children's publishing, I did
Amra Pajalic (01:53)
Mm.
John Infortunio (01:53)
I did go back to teach there almost accidentally.
Amra Pajalic (01:57)
Mm.
John Infortunio (01:58)
You know, I I did not like the world of working in publishing, the publishing side, the business side of it. And I bummed around for a little while. I left and I bummed around for a little while and I eventually ended up speaking to a former teacher who would then become a colleague and he said, Hey, you know, we're hiring English teachers. He said, I think you'd be great and I said, I real I don't think I'm interested. I had a tan, I was working on a great tan, I was having a great summer. but need to pick
The bills and and so I just did. My mom, my mom was a teacher for many years. I just didn't think it was for me. I eventually took the job. I bit
Amra Pajalic (02:38)
huh
John Infortunio (02:39)
the bullet. I took the job and I said, All right, I'm gonna do this for one year.
Amra Pajalic (02:43)
Yeah.
John Infortunio (02:43)
And 16 years later, I left to go to another school. Bishop Ford eventually closed down, which was just heartbreaking.
Amra Pajalic (02:52)
Yeah.
John Infortunio (02:53)
And you know, I've been in education now. I just finished my 33rd year. I'm starting my 34th year in September. And now I work administratively in schools, in a school system. So it's been quite it's been quite a journey. I was an athletic director, as you mentioned, I coached. These are some of the greatest years of my life working with remarkable young people, teaching
Amra Pajalic (03:17)
Mm-hmm.
John Infortunio (03:17)
and coaching. And I was just I I've lived several lives, I tell people.
and they've
Amra Pajalic (03:23)
Yeah.
John Infortunio (03:24)
all been w the next has been interesting than the one before, so it's it's been quite a ride.
Amra Pajalic (03:31)
Yeah, I've been teaching now for sixteen years and like you I I did a lot of things beforehand and teaching is, you know, the best career. It's it's been the biggest joy. I I love the classroom, I love my students and
I also live in the suburb that I grew up in and so it's my local school. My daughter goes to that school. I am very committed to this school. and my students.
John Infortunio (04:02)
Yeah, you're immersed.
Amra Pajalic (04:05)
Yeah, I am because we I I live in a suburb called St Albans and in Melbourne's West and we are very
John Infortunio (04:12)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (04:13)
multicultural. And so my school has like ninety percent students from non English speaking background.
John Infortunio (04:20)
That's great.
Amra Pajalic (04:20)
And so
and I teach EAL, so I teach i English as an additional language, as well as English
John Infortunio (04:26)
wow, okay.
Amra Pajalic (04:28)
and and history. And yeah, and so I just love teaching kids like me who come from a background of migrant parents who are sort of finding their way, and new the new generation and yeah, it it like
I and I do my I did this year my there's a boy I have in one of my year eight classes where I was like, This is a teacher So I started my recruiting and I was like, You're
in you're in year eight, but I think you need to think about this So
John Infortunio (05:03)
Yeah. Do your do
your kids ever get surprised when they see you outside of the classroom, outside of the school, at maybe a grocery store or at the park or something like that?
Amra Pajalic (05:14)
Well, it's so funny because you
there's a few kids who come up and talk to me, but most of the time I'm I'm anonymous. I'm sure they recognise me, but for me once they're out of uniform, unless I actually know them by name, it just kind of and so it's it's fascinating. I don't actually have that many close encounters. and the few that I do are just the real sweethearts who, you know,
John Infortunio (05:37)
Right. Right.
Amra Pajalic (05:39)
like
talking to me.
John Infortunio (05:40)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (05:41)
and so it's been easier from that perspective. It has just meant I do have to brush my hair before I leave the house. but I do every
John Infortunio (05:48)
Yeah. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (05:50)
once in a while still leave in an Uudie. I'm like, nah and you know go to my pizza shop, pick up my pizza in my UDie because
John Infortunio (05:57)
Yeah. Yes.
Amra Pajalic (06:00)
Melbourne winters are nothing to
laugh about.
John Infortunio (06:03)
No, I'm sure. but you're you're right. The one time you don't go out or you do go out a little unkempt, that's the day you will see
Amra Pajalic (06:13)
Yes.
John Infortunio (06:14)
you know, every one of your students. And I remember seeing my kids in all different places, the mall or
whatever it was and they would look at me with a this look of surprise as if the moment I walked out of the school at times, I disappear I vanished, I evaporated.
Amra Pajalic (06:30)
Yes.
John Infortunio (06:31)
And then I reappear on Monday like a mist. yeah, it was really it it was always a fun time seeing them or their families and and I still keep in touch with so many of my students and no matter what they're doing, I love to see and hear about it and, you know, have a conversation with them. whether it's
on social media or even in person sometimes I'll still bump into them. And it's amazing how they're
Amra Pajalic (06:56)
Mm.
John Infortunio (06:57)
in their 30s and 40s now. And I think, how am I still 25? I really can't
Amra Pajalic (07:02)
Yeah.
John Infortunio (07:03)
you know I can't I don't understand. Yeah. I don't understand how
Amra Pajalic (07:05)
then you're like, okay.
John Infortunio (07:09)
I haven't aged. But yeah, there's they're so sweet and I love them all. And
Yeah,
it was it's been an amazing, amazing run working with young people. And I would not have traded it for anything in in the world. I I really feel like I've been
Amra Pajalic (07:25)
No.
John Infortunio (07:26)
incredibly lucky.
Amra Pajalic (07:28)
I think there is something really special 'cause even a friend of mine works in the corporate sector and she's just had a terrible turn and and she's needing to leave her job. And moments like that just remind me how what we do, you know, matters
John Infortunio (07:43)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (07:44)
and also I love working with young people
John Infortunio (07:48)
Uh-huh.
Amra Pajalic (07:48)
over
the adults, even sometimes the meetings where I have to interact with grown ups. I'm like, I'd like to pass, please. Give me my young people. I will deal with them, even even the ratiest of them, please.
John Infortunio (07:55)
Sorry.
Amra Pajalic (08:03)
so yeah, it's it's just really kind of you yeah, it's a it's a different thing when you work with young people.
John Infortunio (08:09)
Yeah, I would rather do that. you know, sometimes you know, working in the environment with with
you know, kids, they're so honest, they're so truthful. And I always tell people, you know, if you really want an honest assessment or an honest opinion, ask a young person. Tell them to try
Amra Pajalic (08:27)
Yes.
John Infortunio (08:27)
not to be to try to censor themselves a little bit for kindness. But you know, in all honesty, if you really want the truth and if you really want that litmus test, ask a young person and you will get a very honest answer and they will know if you are honest with them. and that's
Amra Pajalic (08:45)
Yes.
John Infortunio (08:46)
one of the beautiful things
About that relationship is students can really
Amra Pajalic (08:49)
Yes.
John Infortunio (08:50)
pick up if you are not being truthful or honest with them. And I would always say to my students, and I hope they remember this, and I hope they they are are listening and hear this, I always say to them, I can deal with a lot of things, I would never want you to come back or see me and say to me that I was not truthful with you or I lied to you about something. That would
Amra Pajalic (09:10)
Yeah.
John Infortunio (09:10)
really break my heart. You may not remember a book we have read or a story, whatever, but I wouldn't want you to come back.
And say I lied to you about the way that college or work or life or family would treat you. So I really tried to be as honest as possible with them. And you know, you hope you succeeded, but all accounts point to that I think I was pretty successful because I have great relationships with them and they're really such remarkable people in everything that they're doing.
Amra Pajalic (09:38)
Yeah.
John Infortunio (09:39)
I love them. I love them, I really do.
Amra Pajalic (09:41)
And I it really
makes such a difference when you 'cause yeah, I've done a lot of jobs. This is the first career, like where I feel like it's a career, I feel like it's something that that really matters.
going to work is just so much easier. Even I'm I'm really sick at the moment and I had to take one sick day, but you know, you you have to really like, can I take this sick day because my students need me, I need to do this, I need to help them with this. and so it really weighs on you, and y and you really kinda need to take care of them. Yeah.
John Infortunio (10:15)
Yeah,
it does. It does weigh on you. And and you know, you feel a sense of obligation you to relationship and you really feel a sense of obligation to them. And they take that seriously and good teachers should take that seriously. you
Amra Pajalic (10:30)
Mm.
John Infortunio (10:31)
know, it's it is it is definitely a career more so than just a job.
Amra Pajalic (10:36)
Yeah, I agree. I agree. I r I really love it. And like the kids when when they feel that connection, ugh it's easy. It is so easy after that. When you've got that relationship and rapport, like that's that's
John Infortunio (10:45)
Mm-hmm. What is? Yes.
Amra Pajalic (10:50)
it. Ninety percent of the job is just that right there. you were talking
John Infortunio (10:52)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (10:53)
a bit a little bit about if you want them to tell you the truth. Have you had any of your students, former or current, help you with your writing or engage with your writing?
John Infortunio (11:05)
I think, you know, not specifically or intentionally. I think they all contributed in in so many ways without them even realizing it. I think,
Amra Pajalic (11:16)
Mm-hmm.
John Infortunio (11:17)
you know, as writers we kind of we take notes all the time with what we're doing. And the first book is about a teacher that, you know,
Destroyed by the Events Today is about a teacher that inexplicably strikes a student. and you really don't know why the teacher has done this. You don't know what the cause is. And I have had some students, you know, get in touch with me or ask me in a very funny way. So which of which of the kids that you taught did you want to actually do that to? And I and I said to them,
Amra Pajalic (11:50)
Yeah.
John Infortunio (11:52)
no, no, none of you. And I think that's that's really one of the things that made the book so interesting was
I wanted to write a story about a teacher that, you know, had, for the most part, great relationships with his students. And this one action was so out of the realm of his behavior that it really acted as a catalytic event. But
I think more to your question, I I think it was just always working with young people and capturing or hearing their voices, hearing and seeing how they interacted, my interactions with them, in the group setting or individually. And I I think it just you know, as a writer, we're recording. We're we're always in our head taking pictures, snapshots, where remember we're listening for dialogue and
I think that's one of the things that I did all those years. So not intentionally, but maybe indirectly. they definitely contributed to
Working with young people definitely contributed to my writing in a lot of different ways. there's
Amra Pajalic (12:59)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
John Infortunio (13:01)
there's there's just such a broad range of different emotions and feelings that you get when you're a teacher and if you care that you can really tap into all those things and in different times. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (13:14)
Mm. Yeah.
I tell my daughter like I've worked in different things, but working as a teacher has really made me a better person because when you have to spend so much time
John Infortunio (13:24)
Wow, that's great.
Amra Pajalic (13:25)
thinking about other people but also being a role model in the way
John Infortunio (13:29)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (13:29)
that you conduct yourself in every way because you know, you have to have those conversations with young people.
John Infortunio (13:36)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (13:37)
Was that polite? Was that kind? Should we say that? What could we have done differently? You know, so all of those teaching moments,
John Infortunio (13:42)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (13:44)
all of those unpacking and and trying to sort of guide them, where everything is a part of that, and
John Infortunio (13:53)
Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (13:53)
it really then helps me with myself and and my self-reflection,
and
John Infortunio (13:58)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (13:59)
applying that to myself. So I I love that about it.
John Infortunio (14:03)
Yeah, but you're right though.
That's a great way to put it, Amra. That you know, it does it makes you really do a full accounting of, you know, who you are and it does make you a better person, you know, I think it should.
and I do
Amra Pajalic (14:17)
Mm.
John Infortunio (14:17)
think you should care about how your kids see you, not necessarily how you dress every day and things like that, but how you carry yourself.
Amra Pajalic (14:26)
Mm.
John Infortunio (14:27)
you know, and I have a very good friend. I'll I'll it's a quick story and I it just reminded me of it, but I have a an a wonderful friend named Joe, and we've worked together for years and years. And when I was a dean of students, he would see me deal with the kids, you know, if it had to do with the behavioral issue, and he said, you know
You're the only person I know that can hold kids accountable the way that you do and be stern with them. And they say thank you when they leave the room or they're happy or they still like
Amra Pajalic (14:57)
Ha ha ha.
John Infortunio (14:59)
you when the conversation is over. And I I I really took that to heart. And it goes to what what you said. I said to them because I think they know I really care. It's not lip service. and
Amra Pajalic (15:11)
Yes.
John Infortunio (15:12)
so the two teachers that I write about in the first and the second book disconnect different teachers, different
Books. I think that's one of the things I really wanted to capture was that these two individuals really care about what they do.
Amra Pajalic (15:26)
Mm mm. But it is also a pressure cooker. There are
John Infortunio (15:30)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (15:30)
also a a lot of things that happen, a lot of things that we can't talk about also. But, you know, there are also fraught situations sometimes
John Infortunio (15:40)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (15:40)
and it it is a pressure cooker and you know, you
John Infortunio (15:43)
It is.
Amra Pajalic (15:44)
you're you're dealing with yeah. Real life in a very real way. Yeah.
John Infortunio (15:49)
Yes. That's why there's
so much responsibility. You're right. You're dealing with a lot of real life situations and emotions and they're also at the years that we've taught them, they're at very, very crucial moments in their lives. emotionally,
Amra Pajalic (16:04)
Mm.
John Infortunio (16:05)
physically, psychologically, they are at at really important stages and it's good to have people that care.
Amra Pajalic (16:16)
Mm.
John Infortunio (16:16)
in those
areas. So yeah, you're absolutely right. It's not easy. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (16:21)
No, well
I I had a very hard upbringing because my mum suffered from bipolar, and there was a lot of stuff going on. I wrote a memoir about it, of course. And I had two teachers who really believed in me and helped me and passed me when I should have failed because of all the things that were going on. And the first thing that I did when my
debut novel was published was I found their addresses and I had those a copy each sent to them. because those moments they were like just so important. at a time when I had so many unreliable adults in my life to have two adults who were so anchored and who actually saw me. it meant everything. Mm
John Infortunio (17:13)
That's beautiful. That is a that
is beautiful. And yeah, we can sometimes get lucky that way. You know, we meet people and they come into our lives at times where we really, really need them. and
We may not see them again after that. they may be there for just a short time, or they may become lifelong mentors or friends or confidants. And I think it's important with what you did. Because you know, teaching, as you know, teaching is a very delay gratification job. You don't really
Amra Pajalic (17:45)
Yes.
John Infortunio (17:46)
know if you've made a difference sometimes. and you don't
Amra Pajalic (17:49)
No.
John Infortunio (17:50)
do it so that at the end of the year the kids will say, Wow.
You change my life. You know, not everything is Goodwill Hunting or or Dead Poet Society, no.
Amra Pajalic (17:57)
Nope.
John Infortunio (17:58)
It not everything is like that. so you have to trust that this the day by day effect that you're having is effective and it is good and it's healthy. so sometimes you don't know, but you gave them an incredible gift by doing that and
Amra Pajalic (18:16)
Yeah. Well one of them I'm still Facebook friends with and we're regularly like she comes to my launches. Yeah. So it means it means a lot.
John Infortunio (18:20)
That's great. that's great. That's that's amazing. That's amazing. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (18:28)
so you've said both books are a way of sharing your childhood growth and maturity into al adulthood. Looking back, what did the act of writing them teach you about yourself that you didn't already know going in?
John Infortunio (18:40)
Ooh,
I think that's a great question. I I think it I think it taught me that I probably know a lot less than I thought I did, you know. I had a great upbringing. I had a great childhood. I was very lucky to have a great family, great parents. that introduced me to a bunch of different things.
amazing music and literature and the theater and old movies and you know my dad was a child of of
a child of the Great Depression. So he appreciated everything he had, always, every point. And my mother was a a Italian mom that loved me beyond, you know, compare. And she really taught me how to love passionately and my father taught me how to appreciate and feel gratitude for so it was a great balance. and, you know, growing up in Brooklyn in the
seventies and eighties was really its own kind of movie in and of itself, you know. great friends, great neighborhood. Everyone's parents knew each other. All the families would get together. it was better than cell phones. one parent would call another parent if they saw you outside doing something you weren't supposed to be doing. It was a small, very tight knit neighborhood and community and it was safe.
And we had each other. And it was before cell phones and technology really I kind of feel like distanced a lot of people, and the relationships were valid, they were authentic. And I think it also helped, you know, in terms of just being able to write the stories that I was able to accumulate over the years, were just numerous, and our experiences and the fun times you had so
And even the painful times, the painful experiences that you had, they resonated.
Amra Pajalic (20:46)
Mm.
John Infortunio (20:46)
They had this resonance to them and those things had weight. They had a gravitas, they had a depth to them. And I think I was able to learn how to tap into a lot of that stuff as I started to write. And
I started writing in grammar school actually. I wrote this f what I thought was a funny story for a class and they my teacher asked me to stand up and read it. And it was about this young young man who goes to school for the first time and he's very nervous. And I it really wasn't anything more dramatic than that, and I got a lot of laughs standing up.
realized, wow, this is awesome. I can't believe I'm eliciting this kind of attention and positive vibes. And
And I think from there I realized that that this was pretty cool, this was fun. And so I always wrote little stories or I always wrote little vignettes or poems. I always would write these little I would doodle quite a bit and you know, write music lyrics and it just always became a part of me. Writing that writing stuff down always became a part of me. And
Amra Pajalic (21:58)
Yeah.
John Infortunio (21:58)
so I think these two books, A, I think it gave me a a good broad sense of how to tap into my past, my childhood especially.
But I think it also, you know, helped me how to cultivate writing dialogue and and writing about real relationships that had depth to them.
Amra Pajalic (22:19)
Mm.
John Infortunio (22:20)
And I think in in all of the books I try to have several relationships that exist because we all have relationships on different levels, primary, secondary, tertiary levels. And they all mean something.
Amra Pajalic (22:35)
Mm.
John Infortunio (22:36)
but it's up to us to sort of determine what they mean to us. And and sometimes a relationship you're not really sure about will blossom as you get older and different part of your life. And so all these things, you know, they come to pass when, you know, you're writing when you're writing a story and characters are interlocking and at play with one another.
Amra Pajalic (22:57)
Mm. I also just as you were talking, I was also thinking about how much being an English teacher influences the writing because we deconstruct texts to such depth
John Infortunio (23:07)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (23:09)
in terms of, you know, the the sentence constructions, the metaphors, the motifs, the you know, everything. And so I also feel like as I was teaching, even though I ha I was already a published author when I started teaching.
John Infortunio (23:26)
Okay.
Amra Pajalic (23:28)
it just added more depth to that and it made made me more deliberate
John Infortunio (23:31)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (23:32)
and more able to kind of use that part of
John Infortunio (23:35)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (23:36)
of my my brain. 'Cause that's the hardest thing, isn't it? we write and we just feel as we're writing, like Hemingway said, we're bleeding on the page. but then there
John Infortunio (23:42)
Yes. Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (23:45)
needs to be that that r vision and that editing and that, you know, separation from your craft.
John Infortunio (23:53)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (23:53)
and that's the true challenge.
John Infortunio (23:56)
It is. you know, you're right. We do I would spend the first portion of the e school year working with literary terms with students and really getting into how stories are constructed. you know
I think it helped them going in. I I would always say to them it's like creating a toolbox for ourselves so that when you're diving into the works of legendary authors, you know, you have something that you can use to sort of excavate the text. and you know what conflict is, you know the importance of setting, and you know the importance of rising action, and you know, and so all of these things become part of our, you know, vernacular and part of our daily life. And I think it's
also would be a little intimidating at times because as I was starting to write, I was always thinking and I discourage people from doing this now, but I was always thinking, I'll never be able to write like F. Scott Fitzgerald or or you know Cormac McCarthy or someone like that. So what's the sense in even bothering if I'll never be able to do that? But
I think you have to learn that you don't have to be them. I'll never be those authors. And that's okay. I'm all right with that. I I realize that. But they definitely inspire me. and they they have acted as massive amounts of inspiration to me in every s every single way. I'm able to take a little bit from each of them and remember them. And yeah, you know
It's it's just all part of our daily life of going around a room and saying, all right, what's the tone here? How does it change? And why does it change? And you know, so yeah, very much you hit the nail on the head. I actually get a warm feeling inside when you said that, because that's what we're doing. Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (25:51)
Yeah. Well that's the thing, even when I deliver
workshops, because like the way that I deliver workshops is very much deconstructing and pulling things apart and showing the even though there's no formula really to writing, but when teaching it is easier to try and create a formula and to kind of build that to teach people and and label things and and give
them
John Infortunio (26:20)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (26:21)
that that structure.
John Infortunio (26:24)
Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (26:24)
and I you know, I I just know when people they're like, I didn't know all this and I'm like, yeah, because it's airy fairy, but it's actually not. It's actually
John Infortunio (26:35)
Right.
Amra Pajalic (26:35)
like very nuts and bolts, when you get down to it. And so it's it's
John Infortunio (26:37)
Right. Yes.
Amra Pajalic (26:40)
just really giving that foundation of those nuts and bolts.
John Infortunio (26:43)
It
is. And you know, there are such there are so many remarkable writers that definitely use that kind of blue printed
those nuts and bolts that they use that. You know, Hawthorne's a great example of a writer that uses that very it's a it's a formulaic, brilliantly formulaic construction of how he wrote. And that's really what I tried to impress upon my kids when reading Scarlet Letter is, and even some of his short stories, you know, that these are, you know, this is the foundations of this. And and then you move into a writer like a Fitzgerald or a Hemingway, like you mentioned,
That were trained to write economically, you know, and very concisely. And, you know, I would tell my kids, you know, you could never get away with writing the Great Gatsby today in those few pages. Your editor would probably
Amra Pajalic (27:38)
Mm.
John Infortunio (27:39)
come back and say, Are you kidding? Like nine chapters? What? You
Amra Pajalic (27:41)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
John Infortunio (27:45)
have to be kidding. But they were newspaper writers and magazine writers, and they were trained to write concisely and get to the point.
point
and deliver their message and to tell a story like Gatsby or Sun also rises and in such a a very specific, concise way, it's it's awe-inspiring. I don't know how
Amra Pajalic (28:10)
Mm.
John Infortunio (28:10)
how they did it at times, but it's it's a craft. It really is a craft.
Amra Pajalic (28:15)
Yeah. And, you know, like we can never write like those authors, but we're not supposed to. We're supposed to
John Infortunio (28:20)
Right.
Amra Pajalic (28:20)
discover our voice, find what is our
John Infortunio (28:23)
Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (28:24)
passion because at the end of the day, I keep coming back to these things with AI and and there's so much hysteria about all of this. And I'm like,
John Infortunio (28:29)
Yes, yes, mhm, mhm.
Amra Pajalic (28:32)
some of it is rightfully so, but I'm also like, it cannot you know, because at the end of the day when we write, there is also that quirky brain, the quirky way that you think, the
John Infortunio (28:45)
Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (28:45)
You know, like when you look at the memorable stories, they're strange. They're they're not quantifiable there, you know?
John Infortunio (28:48)
Yeah. Yes. Yes.
Amra Pajalic (28:53)
and so that's the thing, like it it really is about just finding your voice, your story, what you want to say, and what you have to say is something unique that someone else can't say because of your life experiences and what you've gone through.
John Infortunio (29:08)
Yes, that's a remarkable way to put it. I could not have
Amra Pajalic (29:11)
Mm.
John Infortunio (29:11)
said any better myself. And you're right, we are very we are very all very weird, quirky beings. And I think that's the one thing the the computer will never be able to duplicate.
Amra Pajalic (29:27)
Mm.
John Infortunio (29:27)
You know, we have these really odd all of us have these odd little eccentricities to us. The way we think, the way we speak, the way we you know, deliver a phrase.
way that we receive something and I think that's really what makes us you know unique and individual as writers. We could be asked to write the same, you know, I'll give you a character, a setting, and an event. And you have to write it in two pages and you can give it
Amra Pajalic (29:56)
Mm.
John Infortunio (29:57)
to a thousand people and it would come back almost a thousand different ways. That's not the case with AI. It'll come back you know in in a specific way.
And I just I love the individualism of different writers.
Amra Pajalic (30:16)
Mm. So I just wanted to go to today was tomorrow, 'cause this was shaped in part by watching your father face Alzheimer's.
John Infortunio (30:23)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (30:25)
And what did that experience teach you about memory and about what's actually worth holding on to?
John Infortunio (30:31)
well it's you know, as you probably know, it's it's just a a brutal
disease for the person going through it, but especially those that are sort of satelliting that person, you know, and there would be days where, you know, my dad would have a ton of clarity. but then there would be days where it was really it was very foggy and vague and he was having a hard time with it. And you know, you really hoped for the good days, you hope for the good moments, you hope for the memories that would be, you know, latched onto. because the alternative
was very sad and it was very painful, brutally painful. And you know, as a as a as a son watching your father, you know, who was for the most part probably your first role model, you know, watching him go through that was doubly sad because my father was a very strong, capable person. and he was very, you know,
He was very cerebral in lot of ways. he was quiet. He was not a loud talker. He wasn't a a a very he didn't share a lot, he kept a lot of stuff in. and so what I tried to do in the book is tried to capture both sides, the moments where the memories are gone.
And they have like a window closing, I tried to explain it. And you try to sneak in as much as you possibly can to get the memories while they're still there. But you cannot, and you're in no way, shape, or form in control of when the window will close and when, when it will stop, and when it will shut down. So it is a very helpless feeling.
And then there are times where, you know, you just get this robust energy, and this robust remembrance of thoughts and ideas. And you know, my dad would love to sit down and he would love to talk to people about what it was like growing up as a young man and in in New York City and the experiences that he had. And to see at times those some of those memories or thoughts and stories getting taken away, that was really difficult to see.
But
you know, ultimately he was able to share those years ago and that's why I always tell people, you know, listen to parents or grandparents when they tell you those stories and those things. Don't dismiss it. Don't try to rush them through it. you know, I would love to be able to sit down with my parents now and ask them a bunch of questions. You know, you you get to a point where you think, no, no, I I'm old enough. I I ask them I think everything I need to know. You never you never do. You never will
Ever get to a point where you're like, no, no, I'm good. I I got it all. There'll always be things you want to share with them and things you want to still find out that you think, I would love to have asked them that. I wonder, ask those questions, you know, ask get those memories from them. and
Amra Pajalic (33:34)
Mm. Mm.
John Infortunio (33:37)
so I think in the book, one of the things
That I tried to capture is the clarity, the good moments, the really difficult, painful moments, and trying to go back and piece together the protagonist's past. because the the father, his father is a incredibly unreliable narrator, so you're trying to work.
with just the stuff and the information, you know, that he discovers in this sort of, you know, road trip, so to speak,
Amra Pajalic (34:11)
Mm.
John Infortunio (34:12)
in the story.
Amra Pajalic (34:14)
Yeah, it's a it's a very difficult illness, but you know, this is what we do. We find ways of weaving in our story and our truth, but fictionalizing and and making it safe to process. because yeah,
John Infortunio (34:29)
Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (34:32)
my first novel was me trying to write my memoir but I wasn't able to, so it w became a young adult novel and then
I don't know, nearly ten years later I then wrote it as a memoir. and
John Infortunio (34:46)
Wow, what a great concept. Wow.
Amra Pajalic (34:48)
yeah, it was there was counselling involved. There was five years of of hardship. So, you know, it is easier when when you put it in fiction and it's a safer place to explore it where you've still got that
John Infortunio (34:59)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (35:03)
opportunity to process the reality, but you're
John Infortunio (35:06)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (35:07)
not quite in it fully. Yeah, makes
John Infortunio (35:09)
Yes. You're right. You can you
can pull away from it at moments or times when it gets too painful. and
Amra Pajalic (35:16)
Yes.
John Infortunio (35:17)
you can either take a break, you can push away from the table, or you can write yourself out of it and then and you know, I have a way of when I write, I I write
And I then I at times I break away to go to a different space and then I return back to a different part of the story. So I i I've always found that to be I just maybe it's part of growing up in New York where things are moving so fast. I don't know what it is, but I just prefer to write that way and then come back and revisit where I was or move along in time. and as long as you're honest with your reader in in time and space, I think it it's fine.
But you're right. I I think there are times where you do need to push away from the dinner table because you're a little too satiated with some of the memories and the and the difficult parts of it. and that's why for me fiction, I don't know if I would be able to write a a non fiction. I I I don't know if I'd be able to.
Amra Pajalic (36:17)
Yeah, I never wrote it before I did my memoir and now I'm sort of addicted. And so now
John Infortunio (36:22)
Hmm.
Amra Pajalic (36:22)
anytime anything happens, I write a non fiction piece. And so I've had like sixty articles published in in all these,
John Infortunio (36:31)
Wow.
Amra Pajalic (36:32)
Australian publications where I've you know, something's happened and my daughter got to the point where she's like, Really? 'Cause anytime anything went up, I'd be like, There's an article in that
And she was like, seriously? I'm like, I'm I'm pretty sure. but that's right. And and change identifying details and and now
John Infortunio (36:48)
Mom, change the names to protect the innocent, Mom. You know. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (36:55)
I'm sort of doing that on Substack because I still seek publication for some of the things, but sometimes I'm just like
John Infortunio (37:03)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (37:04)
I just want this as it is. I don't wanna have to worry about the word count and fitting it into this and I just wanna
John Infortunio (37:10)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (37:12)
process and recently something happened and I was grizzling about it for like a month and then it finally resolved and then I wrote about it and I was like, and it's done. I am
John Infortunio (37:25)
Okay.
Amra Pajalic (37:25)
healed
John Infortunio (37:27)
Yes, yes. That's right. I mean it take
you it didn't take three years or two years or even a year to kind of, you know, get a publisher on board or have the whole thing edited
Amra Pajalic (37:37)
No.
John Infortunio (37:38)
down and it's cathartic, you know, it's very cathartic. And I I think these writing different writing platforms are great. I think they're they're very healthy. I think they're as healthy as reading. I think we should be writing, I think we should be re trying to record different things.
writing and recording things and reading are some of the healthiest things that you can do for your mind and your body and your spirit if you're so inclined. But I do think that they're excellent for the mind and processing. They are in their own way a different form of therapy. you know, and they require a
Amra Pajalic (38:18)
Yeah, yeah. Even even reading
John Infortunio (38:22)
Yeah, they require a a c an aspect of courage too, if you're going to record and write about things that are personally first person have happened to you.
Amra Pajalic (38:33)
Mm.
Yeah. I'm now kind of addicted to it. It's it's been really
John Infortunio (38:37)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (38:38)
good 'cause I'm a you know, growing up with a mumma who has bipolar, I grew up as an oversharer. That's just my default setting.
John Infortunio (38:43)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (38:45)
so at least now by putting it in a writing space, I'm not constantly like oversharing in person.
So that's how I've cured myself. And and how speaking
John Infortunio (38:53)
Yeah. Right, right.
Amra Pajalic (38:57)
of that, I did I did write an article for our national newspaper The Age about how I am an oversharer and why. So I
John Infortunio (39:04)
wow. Okay.
Amra Pajalic (39:07)
have to say there is nothing nothing sweeter than writing something that is a life lesson for you and then getting paid for it.
John Infortunio (39:20)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (39:21)
He it is beautiful.
John Infortunio (39:23)
It is. It's a great yeah, that is in and of itself is also a great form of therapy. but
Amra Pajalic (39:29)
Yeah.
John Infortunio (39:30)
did you get feedback from other people that said, wow, you too?
Amra Pajalic (39:34)
Yeah, this is the
thing that that is also wonderful about when you publish an article, especially you know, like every article that I published I had some stranger reach out to me and contact me. Like I I wrote an article about being in perimenopause and finding babies revolting. And then I had two women contacting me going, Me too, me too, but I can never say it, I can never say it
So it's just kind of reinforces that let your freak flag fry fly and you know, like really share. Yeah, share your truth, share your weird stuff, share share that sort of stuff because that the
John Infortunio (40:04)
Yeah. Yeah, well you're speaking the truth. Yeah, you're you're speaking a truth. Yep. Yep.
Amra Pajalic (40:14)
more that you do that, the more it kind of opens up conversations and and people
John Infortunio (40:17)
Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (40:18)
are then able to acknowledge
John Infortunio (40:21)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (40:21)
and, you know, see themselves in it. even I wrote about teaching and I I had one
man writing to me and saying, you know, he grew up in the nineteen seventies when when teaching was they had corporal punishment and it was about getting students
John Infortunio (40:37)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (40:37)
out as soon as they were, you know, seen as not,
John Infortunio (40:42)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (40:43)
for t for education and he spent so many years feeling like
inferior and and feeling terrible and then throughout his life he went back and educated himself and ended up doing a PhD and, you know, really got his confidence and and really discovered that no, that's not actually who I am. and it's so it's just amazing the the things that you put out there you don't know you think you're writing something in a particular lens and this is what you're sharing.
John Infortunio (41:15)
Yes. Yes.
Amra Pajalic (41:17)
But the way people see it and what they connect with is just
John Infortunio (41:20)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (41:21)
amazing.
John Infortunio (41:22)
Yeah, well, you know, we we think at times we're in a bubble and we're kind of in this vacuum, but we're really not. We have a lot of shared experiences. And I think there's a like I said, there's a a there's a courage to writing it, but I think there's also something about receiving it with a very open mind. And I think that's at times what acts as a you know, to unify people. I I think, you know, it sounds contrived, but I do think that, you know, we do share a lot more
a a lot of similarities rather than differences. And I think at times we tend to focus too much on what makes us different, what differentiates us. we all wanna be these kind of unique creatures and characters. And in a way we are, but we also share a tremendous amount of commonality. And I think it's okay. I think that's okay. It doesn't mean we're not special. but it
It really I think it helps to understand and know that. So when someone comes to me and they say, Wow, you know, I I really, you know, that was that was great. I read I love that. I love sharing those ideas and I want to know more from folks.
Amra Pajalic (42:36)
Mm. Yeah, it it I mean that's that's the joy of writing. So I wanted to sort of turn to a little bit of advice. What advice you'd give a first-time novelist that you had to learn the hard way yourself.
John Infortunio (42:51)
you know, I've always I've told this story a few times, to folks and I mentioned it in one of my readings and Destroyed by the Events of the Day started as a short story. I originally was going to write it as maybe a fifteen, twenty page short story, and I
gave it to my mother to read at the time and she was a voracious reader. She she probably read about a book a week. And I said to her, you have to read this though, but read it as as, you know, a critic and and not my mom, you know. And she did and she came back to me and she said, you know, this you you really need to keep writing. this is more than what you're thinking. and I and I think that inspired me.
So I think one of the first things is what I would always say to people that have an interest in writing. I said, I think you need to find things that inspire you. I think whether it's friends, whether it is music, whether it is art, no matter what it is that motivates you and taps into a very creative part of you, you need to find that, you need to embrace it, you need to hold on to it because it acts as motivation.
acts as sort of a a caretaker for you and i think you should if you enjoy writing just just do it as as you know commercial esque as that sounds i think you should though i think you should just take the leap and try to do it don't be afraid of failing be brave enough
Amra Pajalic (44:28)
Mm.
John Infortunio (44:28)
to try to succeed you know i i think that's probably true with every walk of life but
There's something about writing where you're going to put your creation, your child out there for everyone to see. And you fear judgment, you know, you fear h harsh criticism, you fear being laughed at. And
That's what I think I would probably tell that little boy that I was when I stood up and read that story in my class that day. You know, don't be nervous, don't be afraid, just do it. Just read it and write it and read it and see what happens. And the worst thing that they can do is I don't know, not laugh.
Or laugh too much or whatever and think you're silly. but we really are. We're worried about the criticisms. And some of us have some beautiful, remarkable stories to tell. And I think you should just do it. You should you should keep writing and try to develop you know, find things that inspire you and people that inspire you. and for me that was always music, it was always art.
it was always looking at other authors, or looking at big time authors and thinking, how do they craft a story? how do they tell the story? What makes or a film, you know, what makes this director different from another director? How would you know, a a
Steven Spielberg tell a story that Martin Scorsese has told? You know, what would it look like? and that's what I used to do with some of my students. I would say, All right, take this short story and choose another aut choose a different author and rewrite it in the style of that author, you know, and I think it's interesting to see that's an interesting exercise. to see, you know, how would how would Stephen King write, you know,
you know, today was tomorrow or something like that, you know, or
Amra Pajalic (46:29)
Mm.
John Infortunio (46:30)
how would I write you know Christine or Pet Cemetery or something. And I think it's
Amra Pajalic (46:35)
Yes.
John Infortunio (46:36)
it's it's an interesting experience, but definitely write, be don't be afraid and and just kind of be brave enough to just go out there and say, hey, you know what, this is me. This is this is my story. And yeah.
Amra Pajalic (46:54)
Hmm.
That's the thing about writing or just art in
John Infortunio (46:58)
Maybe.
Amra Pajalic (46:59)
general. Like you really do need to create and then you need to release it out into the world.
John Infortunio (47:04)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (47:05)
And you know, you just have to trust that if you I love this saying even though I'm not
I'm I'm sort of leaning more towards atheism atheist being an atheist. But it's God doesn't give you the desire to do something unless you have the ability to do it. I would
John Infortunio (47:25)
Great. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (47:26)
I would just replace God with universe. I would say the universe
John Infortunio (47:28)
No.
Amra Pajalic (47:30)
doesn't give you the desire to do something without the ability to be able to do it. And
John Infortunio (47:34)
Right.
Amra Pajalic (47:35)
I think, you know, we always kind of go on to that thing of what is success and I think
Because, you know, as teachers we're always this is the great thing about teaching, we're failing every day. Like we we teach, we have a great lesson, then we have a terrible lesson, we have a terrible moment, we have a conversation,
John Infortunio (47:54)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (47:55)
we're like, I shouldn't have said that, you know,
John Infortunio (47:57)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (47:58)
I need to I need to walk that back, I need to fix that, I need to even
John Infortunio (48:00)
Right, right.
Amra Pajalic (48:03)
yesterday I was in a meeting and I was like, I don't know if it's me or if it's the students or if it's both of us, but I really feel like I have
not done this well and
John Infortunio (48:12)
Yes. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (48:14)
and I have have made a hash of it and I'm just like, I just need to finish. I can't I don't know what to do, how to course correct right now.
John Infortunio (48:18)
Yes. God, yeah. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (48:23)
and so, you know, we we've kind of gone through that where it's like you just have to do it. You you do you write the book, you write something, you put it out there, you give it a shot. that's the only way.
that you're going
John Infortunio (48:36)
Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (48:37)
to learn and personally I think success is trying. just trying. Like I I have always
John Infortunio (48:41)
Yes, thank you for that. Absolutely.
Amra Pajalic (48:46)
viewed my success as despite the fact that I have always had to work. I have not been able to live off my writing income.
John Infortunio (48:56)
Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (48:58)
I have always written. That has never stopped. You know, from
John Infortunio (49:00)
Mm. Yes.
Amra Pajalic (49:02)
when I was thirteen years old.
and so yeah, I I I really love what you're saying in terms of just try and do it and and put it out there and and give it a shot.
John Infortunio (49:15)
Yeah, I needed to. I would rather believe me, if a a publishing house or if a large publisher wanted to come to me and say, Hey, we'll pay you to do this, I would gladly say yes. However, I you know, I still like the fact that I need to work. I still need to be active in the outside world in this way. And I need these kinds of interactions and I need to see the world the way that I see it.
And I I don't know if my writing would be different if I were being, you know, paid to write. I don't know what it would be. you only know what you know in a sense.
Amra Pajalic (49:56)
Yeah.
John Infortunio (49:57)
but I think I really relish the fact that I need to go out every day and and
interact with the world in a way where I can I can take those little stories or v images that I see in the world around me in my interactions with people and and use them and record them and try to make stories out of them in a way. So I think it's to our advantage, you know, that we have that.
Amra Pajalic (50:26)
Yeah, I think being in the world. And also the other thing is, and I've I've ha had this conversation a few times with other writers where it's like in a writer's block and it's like, sweetie, we we are always fighting for time. You know, we
John Infortunio (50:38)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (50:38)
have five minutes, we are using it.
John Infortunio (50:41)
Yes,
a hundred percent. And you know, you you
In regard to writer's block, I think, you know, we create the world that we're writing. so it's sort of like you can drive down the wrong street and if it's a dent, you can just turn the car around and get out of that and maneuver it and go somewhere else. Write your way out of it. Try to write your way out of it. it doesn't have you don't have to be there. you know, it's a metaphysical, you know, conundrum of do I have to be in this writer's you don't have to be there.
the words may
Amra Pajalic (51:15)
No.
John Infortunio (51:15)
not come, but just try to keep processing whatever it is that you are engaged in. And you won't you know, you may not just you just might not get stuck there.
Amra Pajalic (51:27)
Hmm, mm. so I just wanted to check where where can readers, f listeners and readers find you and find your books?
John Infortunio (51:40)
Yes.
they can f both books are available on Amazon. they can get them on Amazon. the second book, Today Was Tomorrow, just came out this January of this year.
I say that as as we're almost approaching the fall, but it went pretty quickly. The Today Was Tomorrow can also be found in Barnes and Noble online as well as Walmart online too. So some other carriers have have decided to take it on for me, and that's it's amazing to have your book on that many different kinds of sales platforms. But also
You know, I can be I'm on Instagram so people can see what I'm doing on Instagram. I try to update my Instagram as much as possible. But I have a a former colleague that is helping me, and I'm extremely excited about this, launching my own website. so I'll be launching my own website in September. it will be it's right around the corner. I would say before the end of September we will have the website up and running and that will be a sort of
Other stuff I've never even gotten out or published I'll have on there. you know, so it's it'll be a nice place to put my own stuff that that people have never seen before, but also give like updates as to what's going on and and maybe even little notes of about what the next book is about and all that stuff. So it I'm really very, very excited about that.
I had lot of people that have helped me quite a bit with starting to put that together. And it got off it got off the ground a lot quicker than I thought it would. And we're looking at a a September launch, so I'm I'm incredibly excited about what that the possibilities of that could be.
Amra Pajalic (53:26)
Lovely. Well, thank you so much, John. It was a pleasure talking to you and and just so lovely to talk to someone who's in the same boat as an author and a teacher and and a publisher.
John Infortunio (53:35)
Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes.
Amra Pajalic (53:40)
So we're wearing very many hats and having the time of our lives doing it.
John Infortunio (53:43)
Mm-hmm. We
are. We are. And thank you very much. It was a absolute pleasure and an honor to be on the show. And this was a great conversation. I really I love having
Amra Pajalic (53:54)
Lovely.
John Infortunio (53:54)
these kinds of conversations. So thank you so, so much.
Amra Pajalic (53:58)
Thank you.
Or I'm just trying to stop recording.
Welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. John Infortunio is a lifelong Brooklynite and author of two emotionally charged thrillers, destroyed by the events of the day and today was tomorrow. Raised in Windsor Terrace before later settling in Bay Ridge, John draws on the neighbourhoods and the Italian and Irish culture that shaped his upbringing. A graduate of Bishop Ford High School and St. Francis College,
He spent 16 years teaching English history and philosophy at his alma mater, also serving as athletic director and coaching a championship basketball team, a career in education that now spans more than three decades. His debut novel, Destroyed by the Events of the Day, was a 15-year passion project centered on a prep school teacher whose name was inspired by John's real-life twin brother. His second novel, Today Was Tomorrow, released this year.
draws on his own experience with his father's Alzheimer's, and follows a son piecing together his family's hidden truths. John is currently writing his third novel while continuing his career in education. He lives with his son Kevin, outside of writing, enjoys music, theatre and travel. Welcome, John.
John Infortunio (01:14)
Thank
you so much. I appreciate that amazing intro and I'm really very,
Amra Pajalic (01:18)
I know it's
John Infortunio (01:20)
very happy to be on on here with you, I have to say.
Amra Pajalic (01:24)
Well, I'm excited to talk to you because as I was saying just before we hit record, we
John Infortunio (01:27)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (01:29)
are both teachers, we are both writers. but more than that, we are both teachers teaching at our former high school.
John Infortunio (01:37)
Yes. that's it was it was quite an experience, you know. I went to Bishop Ford High School. you know, I spent some amazing years there and then I did go back after a very short lived stint in children's publishing, I did
Amra Pajalic (01:53)
Mm.
John Infortunio (01:53)
I did go back to teach there almost accidentally.
Amra Pajalic (01:57)
Mm.
John Infortunio (01:58)
You know, I I did not like the world of working in publishing, the publishing side, the business side of it. And I bummed around for a little while. I left and I bummed around for a little while and I eventually ended up speaking to a former teacher who would then become a colleague and he said, Hey, you know, we're hiring English teachers. He said, I think you'd be great and I said, I real I don't think I'm interested. I had a tan, I was working on a great tan, I was having a great summer. but need to pick
The bills and and so I just did. My mom, my mom was a teacher for many years. I just didn't think it was for me. I eventually took the job. I bit
Amra Pajalic (02:38)
huh
John Infortunio (02:39)
the bullet. I took the job and I said, All right, I'm gonna do this for one year.
Amra Pajalic (02:43)
Yeah.
John Infortunio (02:43)
And 16 years later, I left to go to another school. Bishop Ford eventually closed down, which was just heartbreaking.
Amra Pajalic (02:52)
Yeah.
John Infortunio (02:53)
And you know, I've been in education now. I just finished my 33rd year. I'm starting my 34th year in September. And now I work administratively in schools, in a school system. So it's been quite it's been quite a journey. I was an athletic director, as you mentioned, I coached. These are some of the greatest years of my life working with remarkable young people, teaching
Amra Pajalic (03:17)
Mm-hmm.
John Infortunio (03:17)
and coaching. And I was just I I've lived several lives, I tell people.
and they've
Amra Pajalic (03:23)
Yeah.
John Infortunio (03:24)
all been w the next has been interesting than the one before, so it's it's been quite a ride.
Amra Pajalic (03:31)
Yeah, I've been teaching now for sixteen years and like you I I did a lot of things beforehand and teaching is, you know, the best career. It's it's been the biggest joy. I I love the classroom, I love my students and
I also live in the suburb that I grew up in and so it's my local school. My daughter goes to that school. I am very committed to this school. and my students.
John Infortunio (04:02)
Yeah, you're immersed.
Amra Pajalic (04:05)
Yeah, I am because we I I live in a suburb called St Albans and in Melbourne's West and we are very
John Infortunio (04:12)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (04:13)
multicultural. And so my school has like ninety percent students from non English speaking background.
John Infortunio (04:20)
That's great.
Amra Pajalic (04:20)
And so
and I teach EAL, so I teach i English as an additional language, as well as English
John Infortunio (04:26)
wow, okay.
Amra Pajalic (04:28)
and and history. And yeah, and so I just love teaching kids like me who come from a background of migrant parents who are sort of finding their way, and new the new generation and yeah, it it like
I and I do my I did this year my there's a boy I have in one of my year eight classes where I was like, This is a teacher So I started my recruiting and I was like, You're
in you're in year eight, but I think you need to think about this So
John Infortunio (05:03)
Yeah. Do your do
your kids ever get surprised when they see you outside of the classroom, outside of the school, at maybe a grocery store or at the park or something like that?
Amra Pajalic (05:14)
Well, it's so funny because you
there's a few kids who come up and talk to me, but most of the time I'm I'm anonymous. I'm sure they recognise me, but for me once they're out of uniform, unless I actually know them by name, it just kind of and so it's it's fascinating. I don't actually have that many close encounters. and the few that I do are just the real sweethearts who, you know,
John Infortunio (05:37)
Right. Right.
Amra Pajalic (05:39)
like
talking to me.
John Infortunio (05:40)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (05:41)
and so it's been easier from that perspective. It has just meant I do have to brush my hair before I leave the house. but I do every
John Infortunio (05:48)
Yeah. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (05:50)
once in a while still leave in an Uudie. I'm like, nah and you know go to my pizza shop, pick up my pizza in my UDie because
John Infortunio (05:57)
Yeah. Yes.
Amra Pajalic (06:00)
Melbourne winters are nothing to
laugh about.
John Infortunio (06:03)
No, I'm sure. but you're you're right. The one time you don't go out or you do go out a little unkempt, that's the day you will see
Amra Pajalic (06:13)
Yes.
John Infortunio (06:14)
you know, every one of your students. And I remember seeing my kids in all different places, the mall or
whatever it was and they would look at me with a this look of surprise as if the moment I walked out of the school at times, I disappear I vanished, I evaporated.
Amra Pajalic (06:30)
Yes.
John Infortunio (06:31)
And then I reappear on Monday like a mist. yeah, it was really it it was always a fun time seeing them or their families and and I still keep in touch with so many of my students and no matter what they're doing, I love to see and hear about it and, you know, have a conversation with them. whether it's
on social media or even in person sometimes I'll still bump into them. And it's amazing how they're
Amra Pajalic (06:56)
Mm.
John Infortunio (06:57)
in their 30s and 40s now. And I think, how am I still 25? I really can't
Amra Pajalic (07:02)
Yeah.
John Infortunio (07:03)
you know I can't I don't understand. Yeah. I don't understand how
Amra Pajalic (07:05)
then you're like, okay.
John Infortunio (07:09)
I haven't aged. But yeah, there's they're so sweet and I love them all. And
Yeah,
it was it's been an amazing, amazing run working with young people. And I would not have traded it for anything in in the world. I I really feel like I've been
Amra Pajalic (07:25)
No.
John Infortunio (07:26)
incredibly lucky.
Amra Pajalic (07:28)
I think there is something really special 'cause even a friend of mine works in the corporate sector and she's just had a terrible turn and and she's needing to leave her job. And moments like that just remind me how what we do, you know, matters
John Infortunio (07:43)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (07:44)
and also I love working with young people
John Infortunio (07:48)
Uh-huh.
Amra Pajalic (07:48)
over
the adults, even sometimes the meetings where I have to interact with grown ups. I'm like, I'd like to pass, please. Give me my young people. I will deal with them, even even the ratiest of them, please.
John Infortunio (07:55)
Sorry.
Amra Pajalic (08:03)
so yeah, it's it's just really kind of you yeah, it's a it's a different thing when you work with young people.
John Infortunio (08:09)
Yeah, I would rather do that. you know, sometimes you know, working in the environment with with
you know, kids, they're so honest, they're so truthful. And I always tell people, you know, if you really want an honest assessment or an honest opinion, ask a young person. Tell them to try
Amra Pajalic (08:27)
Yes.
John Infortunio (08:27)
not to be to try to censor themselves a little bit for kindness. But you know, in all honesty, if you really want the truth and if you really want that litmus test, ask a young person and you will get a very honest answer and they will know if you are honest with them. and that's
Amra Pajalic (08:45)
Yes.
John Infortunio (08:46)
one of the beautiful things
About that relationship is students can really
Amra Pajalic (08:49)
Yes.
John Infortunio (08:50)
pick up if you are not being truthful or honest with them. And I would always say to my students, and I hope they remember this, and I hope they they are are listening and hear this, I always say to them, I can deal with a lot of things, I would never want you to come back or see me and say to me that I was not truthful with you or I lied to you about something. That would
Amra Pajalic (09:10)
Yeah.
John Infortunio (09:10)
really break my heart. You may not remember a book we have read or a story, whatever, but I wouldn't want you to come back.
And say I lied to you about the way that college or work or life or family would treat you. So I really tried to be as honest as possible with them. And you know, you hope you succeeded, but all accounts point to that I think I was pretty successful because I have great relationships with them and they're really such remarkable people in everything that they're doing.
Amra Pajalic (09:38)
Yeah.
John Infortunio (09:39)
I love them. I love them, I really do.
Amra Pajalic (09:41)
And I it really
makes such a difference when you 'cause yeah, I've done a lot of jobs. This is the first career, like where I feel like it's a career, I feel like it's something that that really matters.
going to work is just so much easier. Even I'm I'm really sick at the moment and I had to take one sick day, but you know, you you have to really like, can I take this sick day because my students need me, I need to do this, I need to help them with this. and so it really weighs on you, and y and you really kinda need to take care of them. Yeah.
John Infortunio (10:15)
Yeah,
it does. It does weigh on you. And and you know, you feel a sense of obligation you to relationship and you really feel a sense of obligation to them. And they take that seriously and good teachers should take that seriously. you
Amra Pajalic (10:30)
Mm.
John Infortunio (10:31)
know, it's it is it is definitely a career more so than just a job.
Amra Pajalic (10:36)
Yeah, I agree. I agree. I r I really love it. And like the kids when when they feel that connection, ugh it's easy. It is so easy after that. When you've got that relationship and rapport, like that's that's
John Infortunio (10:45)
Mm-hmm. What is? Yes.
Amra Pajalic (10:50)
it. Ninety percent of the job is just that right there. you were talking
John Infortunio (10:52)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (10:53)
a bit a little bit about if you want them to tell you the truth. Have you had any of your students, former or current, help you with your writing or engage with your writing?
John Infortunio (11:05)
I think, you know, not specifically or intentionally. I think they all contributed in in so many ways without them even realizing it. I think,
Amra Pajalic (11:16)
Mm-hmm.
John Infortunio (11:17)
you know, as writers we kind of we take notes all the time with what we're doing. And the first book is about a teacher that, you know,
Destroyed by the Events Today is about a teacher that inexplicably strikes a student. and you really don't know why the teacher has done this. You don't know what the cause is. And I have had some students, you know, get in touch with me or ask me in a very funny way. So which of which of the kids that you taught did you want to actually do that to? And I and I said to them,
Amra Pajalic (11:50)
Yeah.
John Infortunio (11:52)
no, no, none of you. And I think that's that's really one of the things that made the book so interesting was
I wanted to write a story about a teacher that, you know, had, for the most part, great relationships with his students. And this one action was so out of the realm of his behavior that it really acted as a catalytic event. But
I think more to your question, I I think it was just always working with young people and capturing or hearing their voices, hearing and seeing how they interacted, my interactions with them, in the group setting or individually. And I I think it just you know, as a writer, we're recording. We're we're always in our head taking pictures, snapshots, where remember we're listening for dialogue and
I think that's one of the things that I did all those years. So not intentionally, but maybe indirectly. they definitely contributed to
Working with young people definitely contributed to my writing in a lot of different ways. there's
Amra Pajalic (12:59)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
John Infortunio (13:01)
there's there's just such a broad range of different emotions and feelings that you get when you're a teacher and if you care that you can really tap into all those things and in different times. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (13:14)
Mm. Yeah.
I tell my daughter like I've worked in different things, but working as a teacher has really made me a better person because when you have to spend so much time
John Infortunio (13:24)
Wow, that's great.
Amra Pajalic (13:25)
thinking about other people but also being a role model in the way
John Infortunio (13:29)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (13:29)
that you conduct yourself in every way because you know, you have to have those conversations with young people.
John Infortunio (13:36)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (13:37)
Was that polite? Was that kind? Should we say that? What could we have done differently? You know, so all of those teaching moments,
John Infortunio (13:42)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (13:44)
all of those unpacking and and trying to sort of guide them, where everything is a part of that, and
John Infortunio (13:53)
Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (13:53)
it really then helps me with myself and and my self-reflection,
and
John Infortunio (13:58)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (13:59)
applying that to myself. So I I love that about it.
John Infortunio (14:03)
Yeah, but you're right though.
That's a great way to put it, Amra. That you know, it does it makes you really do a full accounting of, you know, who you are and it does make you a better person, you know, I think it should.
and I do
Amra Pajalic (14:17)
Mm.
John Infortunio (14:17)
think you should care about how your kids see you, not necessarily how you dress every day and things like that, but how you carry yourself.
Amra Pajalic (14:26)
Mm.
John Infortunio (14:27)
you know, and I have a very good friend. I'll I'll it's a quick story and I it just reminded me of it, but I have a an a wonderful friend named Joe, and we've worked together for years and years. And when I was a dean of students, he would see me deal with the kids, you know, if it had to do with the behavioral issue, and he said, you know
You're the only person I know that can hold kids accountable the way that you do and be stern with them. And they say thank you when they leave the room or they're happy or they still like
Amra Pajalic (14:57)
Ha ha ha.
John Infortunio (14:59)
you when the conversation is over. And I I I really took that to heart. And it goes to what what you said. I said to them because I think they know I really care. It's not lip service. and
Amra Pajalic (15:11)
Yes.
John Infortunio (15:12)
so the two teachers that I write about in the first and the second book disconnect different teachers, different
Books. I think that's one of the things I really wanted to capture was that these two individuals really care about what they do.
Amra Pajalic (15:26)
Mm mm. But it is also a pressure cooker. There are
John Infortunio (15:30)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (15:30)
also a a lot of things that happen, a lot of things that we can't talk about also. But, you know, there are also fraught situations sometimes
John Infortunio (15:40)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (15:40)
and it it is a pressure cooker and you know, you
John Infortunio (15:43)
It is.
Amra Pajalic (15:44)
you're you're dealing with yeah. Real life in a very real way. Yeah.
John Infortunio (15:49)
Yes. That's why there's
so much responsibility. You're right. You're dealing with a lot of real life situations and emotions and they're also at the years that we've taught them, they're at very, very crucial moments in their lives. emotionally,
Amra Pajalic (16:04)
Mm.
John Infortunio (16:05)
physically, psychologically, they are at at really important stages and it's good to have people that care.
Amra Pajalic (16:16)
Mm.
John Infortunio (16:16)
in those
areas. So yeah, you're absolutely right. It's not easy. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (16:21)
No, well
I I had a very hard upbringing because my mum suffered from bipolar, and there was a lot of stuff going on. I wrote a memoir about it, of course. And I had two teachers who really believed in me and helped me and passed me when I should have failed because of all the things that were going on. And the first thing that I did when my
debut novel was published was I found their addresses and I had those a copy each sent to them. because those moments they were like just so important. at a time when I had so many unreliable adults in my life to have two adults who were so anchored and who actually saw me. it meant everything. Mm
John Infortunio (17:13)
That's beautiful. That is a that
is beautiful. And yeah, we can sometimes get lucky that way. You know, we meet people and they come into our lives at times where we really, really need them. and
We may not see them again after that. they may be there for just a short time, or they may become lifelong mentors or friends or confidants. And I think it's important with what you did. Because you know, teaching, as you know, teaching is a very delay gratification job. You don't really
Amra Pajalic (17:45)
Yes.
John Infortunio (17:46)
know if you've made a difference sometimes. and you don't
Amra Pajalic (17:49)
No.
John Infortunio (17:50)
do it so that at the end of the year the kids will say, Wow.
You change my life. You know, not everything is Goodwill Hunting or or Dead Poet Society, no.
Amra Pajalic (17:57)
Nope.
John Infortunio (17:58)
It not everything is like that. so you have to trust that this the day by day effect that you're having is effective and it is good and it's healthy. so sometimes you don't know, but you gave them an incredible gift by doing that and
Amra Pajalic (18:16)
Yeah. Well one of them I'm still Facebook friends with and we're regularly like she comes to my launches. Yeah. So it means it means a lot.
John Infortunio (18:20)
That's great. that's great. That's that's amazing. That's amazing. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (18:28)
so you've said both books are a way of sharing your childhood growth and maturity into al adulthood. Looking back, what did the act of writing them teach you about yourself that you didn't already know going in?
John Infortunio (18:40)
Ooh,
I think that's a great question. I I think it I think it taught me that I probably know a lot less than I thought I did, you know. I had a great upbringing. I had a great childhood. I was very lucky to have a great family, great parents. that introduced me to a bunch of different things.
amazing music and literature and the theater and old movies and you know my dad was a child of of
a child of the Great Depression. So he appreciated everything he had, always, every point. And my mother was a a Italian mom that loved me beyond, you know, compare. And she really taught me how to love passionately and my father taught me how to appreciate and feel gratitude for so it was a great balance. and, you know, growing up in Brooklyn in the
seventies and eighties was really its own kind of movie in and of itself, you know. great friends, great neighborhood. Everyone's parents knew each other. All the families would get together. it was better than cell phones. one parent would call another parent if they saw you outside doing something you weren't supposed to be doing. It was a small, very tight knit neighborhood and community and it was safe.
And we had each other. And it was before cell phones and technology really I kind of feel like distanced a lot of people, and the relationships were valid, they were authentic. And I think it also helped, you know, in terms of just being able to write the stories that I was able to accumulate over the years, were just numerous, and our experiences and the fun times you had so
And even the painful times, the painful experiences that you had, they resonated.
Amra Pajalic (20:46)
Mm.
John Infortunio (20:46)
They had this resonance to them and those things had weight. They had a gravitas, they had a depth to them. And I think I was able to learn how to tap into a lot of that stuff as I started to write. And
I started writing in grammar school actually. I wrote this f what I thought was a funny story for a class and they my teacher asked me to stand up and read it. And it was about this young young man who goes to school for the first time and he's very nervous. And I it really wasn't anything more dramatic than that, and I got a lot of laughs standing up.
realized, wow, this is awesome. I can't believe I'm eliciting this kind of attention and positive vibes. And
And I think from there I realized that that this was pretty cool, this was fun. And so I always wrote little stories or I always wrote little vignettes or poems. I always would write these little I would doodle quite a bit and you know, write music lyrics and it just always became a part of me. Writing that writing stuff down always became a part of me. And
Amra Pajalic (21:58)
Yeah.
John Infortunio (21:58)
so I think these two books, A, I think it gave me a a good broad sense of how to tap into my past, my childhood especially.
But I think it also, you know, helped me how to cultivate writing dialogue and and writing about real relationships that had depth to them.
Amra Pajalic (22:19)
Mm.
John Infortunio (22:20)
And I think in in all of the books I try to have several relationships that exist because we all have relationships on different levels, primary, secondary, tertiary levels. And they all mean something.
Amra Pajalic (22:35)
Mm.
John Infortunio (22:36)
but it's up to us to sort of determine what they mean to us. And and sometimes a relationship you're not really sure about will blossom as you get older and different part of your life. And so all these things, you know, they come to pass when, you know, you're writing when you're writing a story and characters are interlocking and at play with one another.
Amra Pajalic (22:57)
Mm. I also just as you were talking, I was also thinking about how much being an English teacher influences the writing because we deconstruct texts to such depth
John Infortunio (23:07)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (23:09)
in terms of, you know, the the sentence constructions, the metaphors, the motifs, the you know, everything. And so I also feel like as I was teaching, even though I ha I was already a published author when I started teaching.
John Infortunio (23:26)
Okay.
Amra Pajalic (23:28)
it just added more depth to that and it made made me more deliberate
John Infortunio (23:31)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (23:32)
and more able to kind of use that part of
John Infortunio (23:35)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (23:36)
of my my brain. 'Cause that's the hardest thing, isn't it? we write and we just feel as we're writing, like Hemingway said, we're bleeding on the page. but then there
John Infortunio (23:42)
Yes. Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (23:45)
needs to be that that r vision and that editing and that, you know, separation from your craft.
John Infortunio (23:53)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (23:53)
and that's the true challenge.
John Infortunio (23:56)
It is. you know, you're right. We do I would spend the first portion of the e school year working with literary terms with students and really getting into how stories are constructed. you know
I think it helped them going in. I I would always say to them it's like creating a toolbox for ourselves so that when you're diving into the works of legendary authors, you know, you have something that you can use to sort of excavate the text. and you know what conflict is, you know the importance of setting, and you know the importance of rising action, and you know, and so all of these things become part of our, you know, vernacular and part of our daily life. And I think it's
also would be a little intimidating at times because as I was starting to write, I was always thinking and I discourage people from doing this now, but I was always thinking, I'll never be able to write like F. Scott Fitzgerald or or you know Cormac McCarthy or someone like that. So what's the sense in even bothering if I'll never be able to do that? But
I think you have to learn that you don't have to be them. I'll never be those authors. And that's okay. I'm all right with that. I I realize that. But they definitely inspire me. and they they have acted as massive amounts of inspiration to me in every s every single way. I'm able to take a little bit from each of them and remember them. And yeah, you know
It's it's just all part of our daily life of going around a room and saying, all right, what's the tone here? How does it change? And why does it change? And you know, so yeah, very much you hit the nail on the head. I actually get a warm feeling inside when you said that, because that's what we're doing. Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (25:51)
Yeah. Well that's the thing, even when I deliver
workshops, because like the way that I deliver workshops is very much deconstructing and pulling things apart and showing the even though there's no formula really to writing, but when teaching it is easier to try and create a formula and to kind of build that to teach people and and label things and and give
them
John Infortunio (26:20)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (26:21)
that that structure.
John Infortunio (26:24)
Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (26:24)
and I you know, I I just know when people they're like, I didn't know all this and I'm like, yeah, because it's airy fairy, but it's actually not. It's actually
John Infortunio (26:35)
Right.
Amra Pajalic (26:35)
like very nuts and bolts, when you get down to it. And so it's it's
John Infortunio (26:37)
Right. Yes.
Amra Pajalic (26:40)
just really giving that foundation of those nuts and bolts.
John Infortunio (26:43)
It
is. And you know, there are such there are so many remarkable writers that definitely use that kind of blue printed
those nuts and bolts that they use that. You know, Hawthorne's a great example of a writer that uses that very it's a it's a formulaic, brilliantly formulaic construction of how he wrote. And that's really what I tried to impress upon my kids when reading Scarlet Letter is, and even some of his short stories, you know, that these are, you know, this is the foundations of this. And and then you move into a writer like a Fitzgerald or a Hemingway, like you mentioned,
That were trained to write economically, you know, and very concisely. And, you know, I would tell my kids, you know, you could never get away with writing the Great Gatsby today in those few pages. Your editor would probably
Amra Pajalic (27:38)
Mm.
John Infortunio (27:39)
come back and say, Are you kidding? Like nine chapters? What? You
Amra Pajalic (27:41)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
John Infortunio (27:45)
have to be kidding. But they were newspaper writers and magazine writers, and they were trained to write concisely and get to the point.
point
and deliver their message and to tell a story like Gatsby or Sun also rises and in such a a very specific, concise way, it's it's awe-inspiring. I don't know how
Amra Pajalic (28:10)
Mm.
John Infortunio (28:10)
how they did it at times, but it's it's a craft. It really is a craft.
Amra Pajalic (28:15)
Yeah. And, you know, like we can never write like those authors, but we're not supposed to. We're supposed to
John Infortunio (28:20)
Right.
Amra Pajalic (28:20)
discover our voice, find what is our
John Infortunio (28:23)
Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (28:24)
passion because at the end of the day, I keep coming back to these things with AI and and there's so much hysteria about all of this. And I'm like,
John Infortunio (28:29)
Yes, yes, mhm, mhm.
Amra Pajalic (28:32)
some of it is rightfully so, but I'm also like, it cannot you know, because at the end of the day when we write, there is also that quirky brain, the quirky way that you think, the
John Infortunio (28:45)
Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (28:45)
You know, like when you look at the memorable stories, they're strange. They're they're not quantifiable there, you know?
John Infortunio (28:48)
Yeah. Yes. Yes.
Amra Pajalic (28:53)
and so that's the thing, like it it really is about just finding your voice, your story, what you want to say, and what you have to say is something unique that someone else can't say because of your life experiences and what you've gone through.
John Infortunio (29:08)
Yes, that's a remarkable way to put it. I could not have
Amra Pajalic (29:11)
Mm.
John Infortunio (29:11)
said any better myself. And you're right, we are very we are very all very weird, quirky beings. And I think that's the one thing the the computer will never be able to duplicate.
Amra Pajalic (29:27)
Mm.
John Infortunio (29:27)
You know, we have these really odd all of us have these odd little eccentricities to us. The way we think, the way we speak, the way we you know, deliver a phrase.
way that we receive something and I think that's really what makes us you know unique and individual as writers. We could be asked to write the same, you know, I'll give you a character, a setting, and an event. And you have to write it in two pages and you can give it
Amra Pajalic (29:56)
Mm.
John Infortunio (29:57)
to a thousand people and it would come back almost a thousand different ways. That's not the case with AI. It'll come back you know in in a specific way.
And I just I love the individualism of different writers.
Amra Pajalic (30:16)
Mm. So I just wanted to go to today was tomorrow, 'cause this was shaped in part by watching your father face Alzheimer's.
John Infortunio (30:23)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (30:25)
And what did that experience teach you about memory and about what's actually worth holding on to?
John Infortunio (30:31)
well it's you know, as you probably know, it's it's just a a brutal
disease for the person going through it, but especially those that are sort of satelliting that person, you know, and there would be days where, you know, my dad would have a ton of clarity. but then there would be days where it was really it was very foggy and vague and he was having a hard time with it. And you know, you really hoped for the good days, you hope for the good moments, you hope for the memories that would be, you know, latched onto. because the alternative
was very sad and it was very painful, brutally painful. And you know, as a as a as a son watching your father, you know, who was for the most part probably your first role model, you know, watching him go through that was doubly sad because my father was a very strong, capable person. and he was very, you know,
He was very cerebral in lot of ways. he was quiet. He was not a loud talker. He wasn't a a a very he didn't share a lot, he kept a lot of stuff in. and so what I tried to do in the book is tried to capture both sides, the moments where the memories are gone.
And they have like a window closing, I tried to explain it. And you try to sneak in as much as you possibly can to get the memories while they're still there. But you cannot, and you're in no way, shape, or form in control of when the window will close and when, when it will stop, and when it will shut down. So it is a very helpless feeling.
And then there are times where, you know, you just get this robust energy, and this robust remembrance of thoughts and ideas. And you know, my dad would love to sit down and he would love to talk to people about what it was like growing up as a young man and in in New York City and the experiences that he had. And to see at times those some of those memories or thoughts and stories getting taken away, that was really difficult to see.
But
you know, ultimately he was able to share those years ago and that's why I always tell people, you know, listen to parents or grandparents when they tell you those stories and those things. Don't dismiss it. Don't try to rush them through it. you know, I would love to be able to sit down with my parents now and ask them a bunch of questions. You know, you you get to a point where you think, no, no, I I'm old enough. I I ask them I think everything I need to know. You never you never do. You never will
Ever get to a point where you're like, no, no, I'm good. I I got it all. There'll always be things you want to share with them and things you want to still find out that you think, I would love to have asked them that. I wonder, ask those questions, you know, ask get those memories from them. and
Amra Pajalic (33:34)
Mm. Mm.
John Infortunio (33:37)
so I think in the book, one of the things
That I tried to capture is the clarity, the good moments, the really difficult, painful moments, and trying to go back and piece together the protagonist's past. because the the father, his father is a incredibly unreliable narrator, so you're trying to work.
with just the stuff and the information, you know, that he discovers in this sort of, you know, road trip, so to speak,
Amra Pajalic (34:11)
Mm.
John Infortunio (34:12)
in the story.
Amra Pajalic (34:14)
Yeah, it's a it's a very difficult illness, but you know, this is what we do. We find ways of weaving in our story and our truth, but fictionalizing and and making it safe to process. because yeah,
John Infortunio (34:29)
Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (34:32)
my first novel was me trying to write my memoir but I wasn't able to, so it w became a young adult novel and then
I don't know, nearly ten years later I then wrote it as a memoir. and
John Infortunio (34:46)
Wow, what a great concept. Wow.
Amra Pajalic (34:48)
yeah, it was there was counselling involved. There was five years of of hardship. So, you know, it is easier when when you put it in fiction and it's a safer place to explore it where you've still got that
John Infortunio (34:59)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (35:03)
opportunity to process the reality, but you're
John Infortunio (35:06)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (35:07)
not quite in it fully. Yeah, makes
John Infortunio (35:09)
Yes. You're right. You can you
can pull away from it at moments or times when it gets too painful. and
Amra Pajalic (35:16)
Yes.
John Infortunio (35:17)
you can either take a break, you can push away from the table, or you can write yourself out of it and then and you know, I have a way of when I write, I I write
And I then I at times I break away to go to a different space and then I return back to a different part of the story. So I i I've always found that to be I just maybe it's part of growing up in New York where things are moving so fast. I don't know what it is, but I just prefer to write that way and then come back and revisit where I was or move along in time. and as long as you're honest with your reader in in time and space, I think it it's fine.
But you're right. I I think there are times where you do need to push away from the dinner table because you're a little too satiated with some of the memories and the and the difficult parts of it. and that's why for me fiction, I don't know if I would be able to write a a non fiction. I I I don't know if I'd be able to.
Amra Pajalic (36:17)
Yeah, I never wrote it before I did my memoir and now I'm sort of addicted. And so now
John Infortunio (36:22)
Hmm.
Amra Pajalic (36:22)
anytime anything happens, I write a non fiction piece. And so I've had like sixty articles published in in all these,
John Infortunio (36:31)
Wow.
Amra Pajalic (36:32)
Australian publications where I've you know, something's happened and my daughter got to the point where she's like, Really? 'Cause anytime anything went up, I'd be like, There's an article in that
And she was like, seriously? I'm like, I'm I'm pretty sure. but that's right. And and change identifying details and and now
John Infortunio (36:48)
Mom, change the names to protect the innocent, Mom. You know. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (36:55)
I'm sort of doing that on Substack because I still seek publication for some of the things, but sometimes I'm just like
John Infortunio (37:03)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (37:04)
I just want this as it is. I don't wanna have to worry about the word count and fitting it into this and I just wanna
John Infortunio (37:10)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (37:12)
process and recently something happened and I was grizzling about it for like a month and then it finally resolved and then I wrote about it and I was like, and it's done. I am
John Infortunio (37:25)
Okay.
Amra Pajalic (37:25)
healed
John Infortunio (37:27)
Yes, yes. That's right. I mean it take
you it didn't take three years or two years or even a year to kind of, you know, get a publisher on board or have the whole thing edited
Amra Pajalic (37:37)
No.
John Infortunio (37:38)
down and it's cathartic, you know, it's very cathartic. And I I think these writing different writing platforms are great. I think they're they're very healthy. I think they're as healthy as reading. I think we should be writing, I think we should be re trying to record different things.
writing and recording things and reading are some of the healthiest things that you can do for your mind and your body and your spirit if you're so inclined. But I do think that they're excellent for the mind and processing. They are in their own way a different form of therapy. you know, and they require a
Amra Pajalic (38:18)
Yeah, yeah. Even even reading
John Infortunio (38:22)
Yeah, they require a a c an aspect of courage too, if you're going to record and write about things that are personally first person have happened to you.
Amra Pajalic (38:33)
Mm.
Yeah. I'm now kind of addicted to it. It's it's been really
John Infortunio (38:37)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (38:38)
good 'cause I'm a you know, growing up with a mumma who has bipolar, I grew up as an oversharer. That's just my default setting.
John Infortunio (38:43)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (38:45)
so at least now by putting it in a writing space, I'm not constantly like oversharing in person.
So that's how I've cured myself. And and how speaking
John Infortunio (38:53)
Yeah. Right, right.
Amra Pajalic (38:57)
of that, I did I did write an article for our national newspaper The Age about how I am an oversharer and why. So I
John Infortunio (39:04)
wow. Okay.
Amra Pajalic (39:07)
have to say there is nothing nothing sweeter than writing something that is a life lesson for you and then getting paid for it.
John Infortunio (39:20)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (39:21)
He it is beautiful.
John Infortunio (39:23)
It is. It's a great yeah, that is in and of itself is also a great form of therapy. but
Amra Pajalic (39:29)
Yeah.
John Infortunio (39:30)
did you get feedback from other people that said, wow, you too?
Amra Pajalic (39:34)
Yeah, this is the
thing that that is also wonderful about when you publish an article, especially you know, like every article that I published I had some stranger reach out to me and contact me. Like I I wrote an article about being in perimenopause and finding babies revolting. And then I had two women contacting me going, Me too, me too, but I can never say it, I can never say it
So it's just kind of reinforces that let your freak flag fry fly and you know, like really share. Yeah, share your truth, share your weird stuff, share share that sort of stuff because that the
John Infortunio (40:04)
Yeah. Yeah, well you're speaking the truth. Yeah, you're you're speaking a truth. Yep. Yep.
Amra Pajalic (40:14)
more that you do that, the more it kind of opens up conversations and and people
John Infortunio (40:17)
Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (40:18)
are then able to acknowledge
John Infortunio (40:21)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (40:21)
and, you know, see themselves in it. even I wrote about teaching and I I had one
man writing to me and saying, you know, he grew up in the nineteen seventies when when teaching was they had corporal punishment and it was about getting students
John Infortunio (40:37)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (40:37)
out as soon as they were, you know, seen as not,
John Infortunio (40:42)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (40:43)
for t for education and he spent so many years feeling like
inferior and and feeling terrible and then throughout his life he went back and educated himself and ended up doing a PhD and, you know, really got his confidence and and really discovered that no, that's not actually who I am. and it's so it's just amazing the the things that you put out there you don't know you think you're writing something in a particular lens and this is what you're sharing.
John Infortunio (41:15)
Yes. Yes.
Amra Pajalic (41:17)
But the way people see it and what they connect with is just
John Infortunio (41:20)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (41:21)
amazing.
John Infortunio (41:22)
Yeah, well, you know, we we think at times we're in a bubble and we're kind of in this vacuum, but we're really not. We have a lot of shared experiences. And I think there's a like I said, there's a a there's a courage to writing it, but I think there's also something about receiving it with a very open mind. And I think that's at times what acts as a you know, to unify people. I I think, you know, it sounds contrived, but I do think that, you know, we do share a lot more
a a lot of similarities rather than differences. And I think at times we tend to focus too much on what makes us different, what differentiates us. we all wanna be these kind of unique creatures and characters. And in a way we are, but we also share a tremendous amount of commonality. And I think it's okay. I think that's okay. It doesn't mean we're not special. but it
It really I think it helps to understand and know that. So when someone comes to me and they say, Wow, you know, I I really, you know, that was that was great. I read I love that. I love sharing those ideas and I want to know more from folks.
Amra Pajalic (42:36)
Mm. Yeah, it it I mean that's that's the joy of writing. So I wanted to sort of turn to a little bit of advice. What advice you'd give a first-time novelist that you had to learn the hard way yourself.
John Infortunio (42:51)
you know, I've always I've told this story a few times, to folks and I mentioned it in one of my readings and Destroyed by the Events of the Day started as a short story. I originally was going to write it as maybe a fifteen, twenty page short story, and I
gave it to my mother to read at the time and she was a voracious reader. She she probably read about a book a week. And I said to her, you have to read this though, but read it as as, you know, a critic and and not my mom, you know. And she did and she came back to me and she said, you know, this you you really need to keep writing. this is more than what you're thinking. and I and I think that inspired me.
So I think one of the first things is what I would always say to people that have an interest in writing. I said, I think you need to find things that inspire you. I think whether it's friends, whether it is music, whether it is art, no matter what it is that motivates you and taps into a very creative part of you, you need to find that, you need to embrace it, you need to hold on to it because it acts as motivation.
acts as sort of a a caretaker for you and i think you should if you enjoy writing just just do it as as you know commercial esque as that sounds i think you should though i think you should just take the leap and try to do it don't be afraid of failing be brave enough
Amra Pajalic (44:28)
Mm.
John Infortunio (44:28)
to try to succeed you know i i think that's probably true with every walk of life but
There's something about writing where you're going to put your creation, your child out there for everyone to see. And you fear judgment, you know, you fear h harsh criticism, you fear being laughed at. And
That's what I think I would probably tell that little boy that I was when I stood up and read that story in my class that day. You know, don't be nervous, don't be afraid, just do it. Just read it and write it and read it and see what happens. And the worst thing that they can do is I don't know, not laugh.
Or laugh too much or whatever and think you're silly. but we really are. We're worried about the criticisms. And some of us have some beautiful, remarkable stories to tell. And I think you should just do it. You should you should keep writing and try to develop you know, find things that inspire you and people that inspire you. and for me that was always music, it was always art.
it was always looking at other authors, or looking at big time authors and thinking, how do they craft a story? how do they tell the story? What makes or a film, you know, what makes this director different from another director? How would you know, a a
Steven Spielberg tell a story that Martin Scorsese has told? You know, what would it look like? and that's what I used to do with some of my students. I would say, All right, take this short story and choose another aut choose a different author and rewrite it in the style of that author, you know, and I think it's interesting to see that's an interesting exercise. to see, you know, how would how would Stephen King write, you know,
you know, today was tomorrow or something like that, you know, or
Amra Pajalic (46:29)
Mm.
John Infortunio (46:30)
how would I write you know Christine or Pet Cemetery or something. And I think it's
Amra Pajalic (46:35)
Yes.
John Infortunio (46:36)
it's it's an interesting experience, but definitely write, be don't be afraid and and just kind of be brave enough to just go out there and say, hey, you know what, this is me. This is this is my story. And yeah.
Amra Pajalic (46:54)
Hmm.
That's the thing about writing or just art in
John Infortunio (46:58)
Maybe.
Amra Pajalic (46:59)
general. Like you really do need to create and then you need to release it out into the world.
John Infortunio (47:04)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (47:05)
And you know, you just have to trust that if you I love this saying even though I'm not
I'm I'm sort of leaning more towards atheism atheist being an atheist. But it's God doesn't give you the desire to do something unless you have the ability to do it. I would
John Infortunio (47:25)
Great. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (47:26)
I would just replace God with universe. I would say the universe
John Infortunio (47:28)
No.
Amra Pajalic (47:30)
doesn't give you the desire to do something without the ability to be able to do it. And
John Infortunio (47:34)
Right.
Amra Pajalic (47:35)
I think, you know, we always kind of go on to that thing of what is success and I think
Because, you know, as teachers we're always this is the great thing about teaching, we're failing every day. Like we we teach, we have a great lesson, then we have a terrible lesson, we have a terrible moment, we have a conversation,
John Infortunio (47:54)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (47:55)
we're like, I shouldn't have said that, you know,
John Infortunio (47:57)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (47:58)
I need to I need to walk that back, I need to fix that, I need to even
John Infortunio (48:00)
Right, right.
Amra Pajalic (48:03)
yesterday I was in a meeting and I was like, I don't know if it's me or if it's the students or if it's both of us, but I really feel like I have
not done this well and
John Infortunio (48:12)
Yes. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (48:14)
and I have have made a hash of it and I'm just like, I just need to finish. I can't I don't know what to do, how to course correct right now.
John Infortunio (48:18)
Yes. God, yeah. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (48:23)
and so, you know, we we've kind of gone through that where it's like you just have to do it. You you do you write the book, you write something, you put it out there, you give it a shot. that's the only way.
that you're going
John Infortunio (48:36)
Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (48:37)
to learn and personally I think success is trying. just trying. Like I I have always
John Infortunio (48:41)
Yes, thank you for that. Absolutely.
Amra Pajalic (48:46)
viewed my success as despite the fact that I have always had to work. I have not been able to live off my writing income.
John Infortunio (48:56)
Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (48:58)
I have always written. That has never stopped. You know, from
John Infortunio (49:00)
Mm. Yes.
Amra Pajalic (49:02)
when I was thirteen years old.
and so yeah, I I I really love what you're saying in terms of just try and do it and and put it out there and and give it a shot.
John Infortunio (49:15)
Yeah, I needed to. I would rather believe me, if a a publishing house or if a large publisher wanted to come to me and say, Hey, we'll pay you to do this, I would gladly say yes. However, I you know, I still like the fact that I need to work. I still need to be active in the outside world in this way. And I need these kinds of interactions and I need to see the world the way that I see it.
And I I don't know if my writing would be different if I were being, you know, paid to write. I don't know what it would be. you only know what you know in a sense.
Amra Pajalic (49:56)
Yeah.
John Infortunio (49:57)
but I think I really relish the fact that I need to go out every day and and
interact with the world in a way where I can I can take those little stories or v images that I see in the world around me in my interactions with people and and use them and record them and try to make stories out of them in a way. So I think it's to our advantage, you know, that we have that.
Amra Pajalic (50:26)
Yeah, I think being in the world. And also the other thing is, and I've I've ha had this conversation a few times with other writers where it's like in a writer's block and it's like, sweetie, we we are always fighting for time. You know, we
John Infortunio (50:38)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (50:38)
have five minutes, we are using it.
John Infortunio (50:41)
Yes,
a hundred percent. And you know, you you
In regard to writer's block, I think, you know, we create the world that we're writing. so it's sort of like you can drive down the wrong street and if it's a dent, you can just turn the car around and get out of that and maneuver it and go somewhere else. Write your way out of it. Try to write your way out of it. it doesn't have you don't have to be there. you know, it's a metaphysical, you know, conundrum of do I have to be in this writer's you don't have to be there.
the words may
Amra Pajalic (51:15)
No.
John Infortunio (51:15)
not come, but just try to keep processing whatever it is that you are engaged in. And you won't you know, you may not just you just might not get stuck there.
Amra Pajalic (51:27)
Hmm, mm. so I just wanted to check where where can readers, f listeners and readers find you and find your books?
John Infortunio (51:40)
Yes.
they can f both books are available on Amazon. they can get them on Amazon. the second book, Today Was Tomorrow, just came out this January of this year.
I say that as as we're almost approaching the fall, but it went pretty quickly. The Today Was Tomorrow can also be found in Barnes and Noble online as well as Walmart online too. So some other carriers have have decided to take it on for me, and that's it's amazing to have your book on that many different kinds of sales platforms. But also
You know, I can be I'm on Instagram so people can see what I'm doing on Instagram. I try to update my Instagram as much as possible. But I have a a former colleague that is helping me, and I'm extremely excited about this, launching my own website. so I'll be launching my own website in September. it will be it's right around the corner. I would say before the end of September we will have the website up and running and that will be a sort of
Other stuff I've never even gotten out or published I'll have on there. you know, so it's it'll be a nice place to put my own stuff that that people have never seen before, but also give like updates as to what's going on and and maybe even little notes of about what the next book is about and all that stuff. So it I'm really very, very excited about that.
I had lot of people that have helped me quite a bit with starting to put that together. And it got off it got off the ground a lot quicker than I thought it would. And we're looking at a a September launch, so I'm I'm incredibly excited about what that the possibilities of that could be.
Amra Pajalic (53:26)
Lovely. Well, thank you so much, John. It was a pleasure talking to you and and just so lovely to talk to someone who's in the same boat as an author and a teacher and and a publisher.
John Infortunio (53:35)
Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes.
Amra Pajalic (53:40)
So we're wearing very many hats and having the time of our lives doing it.
John Infortunio (53:43)
Mm-hmm. We
are. We are. And thank you very much. It was a absolute pleasure and an honor to be on the show. And this was a great conversation. I really I love having
Amra Pajalic (53:54)
Lovely.
John Infortunio (53:54)
these kinds of conversations. So thank you so, so much.
Amra Pajalic (53:58)
Thank you.
Or I'm just trying to stop recording.