36-Inspiration Finds Us Working: Forget the Rules, Write the Next Book, interviewing Jim shomos

36-Inspiration Finds Us Working: Forget the Rules, Write the Next Book, interviewing Jim Shomos

Podcast: Download (Duration: 1 hour and 6 minutes)

Subscribe: Spotify | Apple | RSS | More

You can listen above or on your favourite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show notes

Jim Shomos spent twenty years breaking format as a screenwriter and producer—his 2005 series Forget the Rules was the world's first to broadcast every episode across TV, web and mobile at once—before pivoting to indie fiction. He and Amra trace that reinvention: how a screenplay that couldn't get financed became his debut novel Up Here, why he chose indie publishing after COVID lockdown made the decision for him, and what changed when he swapped studio notes and gatekeepers for total creative control. They dig into the discipline behind the craft—Jim's answer to "what's your greatest talent" isn't story or voice, it's showing up—along with the pull of romance versus thrillers, where AI actually earns its keep for an indie author (and where it doesn't), and how grief and upheaval reshaped both their writing lives. A candid look at what it costs, and what it's worth, to keep chipping away at the work.

Takeaways

Creative Freedom
Collaboration in Creative Projects Discipline
Continuous learning

Chapters

00:00 Meet Jim Shomos
01:28 The Birth of Forget the Rules
04:31 Total Creative Control vs. Studio Notes
08:53 From Copywriter to Screenwriter: Craft, Mentors, and Emotional Truth
15:54 Gatekeepers and a Subjective Industry
18:27 Streaming Economics and Vanishing Residuals
20:36 When Editors Pull You in Different Directions
23:41 Can AI Write an Original Story?
27:37 Canva, AI Narration, and Indie Marketing Tools
29:45 Grief, Sabbatical, and Stepping Back
31:02 Becoming a Romance Writer, and a Lifelong Thriller Reader
33:11 The Idea Behind Up Here
34:32 25 Years of Pitching One Script
36:18 Craft, Discipline, and the Myth of Inspiration
39:13 "Real Writing Is Rewriting"
41:45 Parenthood, Upheaval, and Getting the Work Done
44:06 Why Reading Makes You a Better Writer
45:21 Deciding on the Next Project: Kidnap
47:33 COVID and the Decision to Go Indie
48:13 Finding a Publishing Community: BusyBird and Romance Writers of Australia
51:23 Hybrid vs. Traditional Publishing, and Spotting the Scams
55:04 Staying Current on Marketing
56:10 Choosing to Write the Next Book
57:02 Protecting Your IP as an Indie Author
58:15 Walking Away from Producing
59:11 Legacy, Mortality, and What Matters Now
1:00:13 Where to Find Jim

Connect with Jim Shomos

Jim Shomos spent over twenty years as a screenwriter and producer before reinventing himself as an indie novelist. Jim Shomos created ‘forget the rules’—the world's first comedy-drama series to broadcast every episode on TV, web and mobile at once—picked up wins and nominations at Cannes and the Australian Writers' Guild, and was once ranked in Australia's Film & TV Power-50. A few years ago, he turned that screenwriting instinct toward the page. Today he's the indie-published author of three contemporary romance novels, and Up Here, Three Women in November, and More Text Than Sex.

Website: https://jimshomos.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jim_shomos/

Transcript of episode

Amra Pajalic (00:01.955)
Welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. My guest today spent over 20 years as a screenwriter and producer before reinventing himself as an indie novelist. Jim Shomos created Forget the Rules, the world's first comedy drama series to broadcast every episode on TV, web, and mobile at once, picked up wins and nominations at Cahn's and the Australian Writers Guild, and was once ranked in Australia's film and TV power for.

fifty. A few years ago he turned that screenwriting instinct toward the page. Today he's the indie published author of three contemporary romance novels. Up here, Three Women in November and More Than Text. Please welcome Jim Shomos.

Jim (00:48.692)
you Amra, thank you. It's funny. Every every time I hear that was ranked in the top fifty of the film and television business just that was weird. Even

Amra Pajalic (00:50.735)
Thank you.

Amra Pajalic (00:59.299)
I know, but it's there's also something about people announcing you because when I don't know, there's something about like if you say it, you kind of feel like you're bragging or like, but when someone else says it, you're like, yeah, that's just a fact. That's just a fact. I'm not you know, so yeah, and and this is why it's a great opportunity to talk to you because you have done all these different things. so I don't know, I I you sort of

Jim (01:03.259)
Yeah.

Jim (01:08.937)
Yeah

Jim (01:13.747)
Yeah.

Amra Pajalic (01:28.557)
I actually wanted to jump into this series first. I was gonna start with some other stuff, but just it really captured me because, you know, it was in two thousand and five and so this was the first time where it was broadcast simultaneously. what made you want to build something that far ahead of its time? How did it come about and and how did it all happen?

Jim (01:32.189)
Sure. Mm-hmm.

Jim (01:49.33)
Sure. It's it's inter it was never it was never my plan. So my my focus was, you know, film and TV. And these characters and this world was kind of in my head as a T V series. And I I survived in those early screen days doing freelance copywriting and work and I was working for particular small or medium sized ad agency that my contract finished there and I didn't you know, it was a good time because I wanted to refocus more on creative.

So I went to this digital media seminar, the Film Victoria, which is now Screen Vic, Rant, or Vic Screen, Vic Screen, yeah, I think Vic Screen. Back then they were filmed Victoria. And there was this really amazing guy called Mark Peschke speaking, so from America based in Sydney. And when he spoke, I was just, you know, it would open up my mind and I was just taking notes. And then when he wasn't speaker, when someone else was speaking, the idea came to me.

Amra Pajalic (02:24.389)
I don't know, they keep changing names. I d I can't keep track.

Jim (02:46.92)
of the format or the idea that having three episodes a week and then letting the audience choose which way the story went the following week. So it was a highly interactive series. And yeah so we we would write three you know the three three episodes three episodes so nine minutes each week. and the story the other my co-writer Terry Siakis and I would sit down and

Amra Pajalic (02:49.069)
Mm.

Jim (03:14.197)
Give some you know, write s give them three options of which way they could go. And we never pre wrote it. So we'd have st we had we'd have the storyline options, but that's as far as we went, 'cause we wanted to be fresh when we went into the writing. So this is how crazy it was. Episode one came out Monday, then Tuesday, Wednesday. The Wednesday episode had the three options. And they had till nine AM on Thursday, the the audience, to vote which way they want the story to go.

Amra Pajalic (03:30.053)
Mm-hmm.

Jim (03:41.119)
So on 9 a.m. Thursday, we locked off on the majority vote, whether we liked it or not. Okay, so that was the thing we thought. We had to be honest with the audience, okay? And and so Terry and I would write the scripts, the nine minutes worth, three, three minute episodes that day. We'd send it to the director for an hour, about five o'clock, and he had till six o'clock to come back with his initial notes, he or she come back with initial notes. We had three directors during the the first thirteen weeks. And then

Amra Pajalic (03:49.185)
Yep.

Jim (04:08.192)
the next day we pre produced, rehearsed. The script would have locked off at lunchtime. We'd shoot Friday shoot on Saturday and Sunday. Okay, sorry, shoot shoot sorry, shoot the whole nine I've got myself, shoot the whole nine minutes on Saturday. Post production started on Sunday. First episode went out Monday and then Tuesday, Wednesday again, and we did that for thirteen weeks.

Amra Pajalic (04:28.591)
Wow, that is that is a really tight schedule. Yeah.

Jim (04:31.09)
It was madness. You know, could you could you imagine being Ruth, our our line producer on that series? She was just, you know, always trying to find a shortcut. Yeah, so so we won Best Interactive Format Award in Cannes for that, which was great. And it helped a lot of things with Infilm Victoria and funding down the track, which we'll talk about later. But so that was that series. So and it was fantastic. So th you know, it was the first time that I got to see characters that I created.

Amra Pajalic (04:39.986)
my gosh. Yeah, that is that is pretty full on.

Jim (04:58.85)
And then si episodes that I co-wrote performed by actors. You know, and it's just, you know, from I was involved in the cast, so I was a co co co-show runner, if you like. and I found two at that particular digital media seminar, the film Victoria running, where I was inspired with the idea, the first coffee break, I met this guy called Paul. Paul and his partner Peter had a post production business and corporate video business, but they're quite creative as well.

And they were looking, were ahead of the ball game, they were looking for online and mobile content. They thought that's where it was going to go. Whereas I hadn't been looking at that at all. And I had no technical background. My I didn't even have proper, proper, you know, the fastest internet at that stage. And so the the three of us, it was a great combination because I come as a writer producer, Paul was a director, and Pete was a post production specialist. great combination team. So they said, you know what, let's let's do a fifty fifty deal and we'll cover the cost of the pilot.

to show people because it's such a crazy idea that we and we created four episodes. So we we we did the first three and then we said, look, if they vote this way, this is how we're going handle it. and the reason we did that is because we offered a a you know a s a sexual option at the end, which would never show. But we wanted to show particularly the mobile operator, because if you if you think about the three carriers, we we had to keep it at rating or lower. You know, we couldn't we couldn't get saucier than that. And so we said, look, if they pick this cheeky option, this is how we're going to handle it with humour.

Amra Pajalic (06:06.725)
Mm-hmm.

Jim (06:26.633)
after the event and so we show them the fourth episode and and if we hadn't have made those first four episodes it we probably would never have got the funding yet. So

Amra Pajalic (06:27.075)
Mm-hmm.

Amra Pajalic (06:36.613)
Yeah, and that's the thing. I mean, there's two things that I'm hearing from that is one, you know, like being open, always like doing some sort of learning and engaging with the industry and and not knowing where your next idea or your next inspiration might come from. and also being brave, like creatively brave and just putting things out there and and seeing what happens.

Jim (06:58.261)
Yeah. Well, forget the rules. I I first saw that by the way, became it was a song first and became the theme song for the show. But I saw the that headlight that's a line. I was in LA back in three, the first time I went there to the AFM to pitch film projects. And I was waiting for an Australian who I'd met who she's and she was working for a an agency, you know, that I wouldn't have minded being represented by. sh and and on the wall and across the road there was this line

Called if you follow all the rules, you miss all the fun. I thought, what a great line. And I found out later it's from Catherine Hepburn. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I changed it slightly. I said, if you follow all the rules, you miss half the fund. So that was a theme of Forget the Rules. But it it became our business mantra as well. So that because no one, because we ended up getting privately funded. And it was, you know, significant money back in 05, and probably significant money now, but you know, it's all up.

Amra Pajalic (07:36.077)
is it? There you go.

Amra Pajalic (07:46.435)
Yeah.

Jim (07:56.34)
Between that and the film Victoria Development Funding we had and then some production funding from them. Well you know, we we were talking about six hundred and fifty, nearly seven hundred thousand dollars to do thirty-nine three minute episodes. And w under that format, you know. So yeah. But we got the the beauty of that is we got paid, you know, while we were working on the show. Obviously, in the in the pre before getting funding, you you're doing a lot of work in a lot of effort, the pilot.

You know, which which the my partners funded, but we still have to spend all that time making happen. it's but yeah, it came off and you never got it done. And the other fluke with that, which I hadn't thought of too much in those days, was that we had total control from day one. So it's very rare, like no no notes. Right. So the t the the telco, which was Hutchison, because Tel Telecom Tel Telstra, sorry, Telstra Optus didn't have video yet back then.

Amra Pajalic (08:40.761)
Yes.

Jim (08:53.668)
They came on board about a few months later with video. So Hutchison, which was three, the brand, three at the time, they had video, so we went with them. we had to do our own website for the for the video because YouTube wasn't in Australia at this stage. Okay. YouTube came on board by the second series. So there's a we were making and we had to build our own website and our own mobile delivery site for for up. So we were making, you know, like I don't know, a hundred decisions a day. Technical

Amra Pajalic (09:09.101)
Mm.

Jim (09:22.925)
business and and mu and creative leading up to the show coming out. And we only had for because we just wanted to get it out there quick. And we we only had seven weeks from the time that people said yes we'll fund it, the private investors, to the time that we actually shot the first episode. So that was crazy time.

Amra Pajalic (09:43.449)
And I like how you pointed out, you know, it's the creative decisions, the business decisions, all all of the other you know, and and having that complete freedom. How is that different to when you've been working in film with others?

Jim (09:58.391)
Well, you know what? I think that's a theme all the way through the industry. And it's something that any creative person can't ignore. You know, like for instance, my first script was too big a project to try and get up as a as a feature film in Australia. And we really did it's a romantic comedy. It was up here, my first novel was actually my first feature script. And big, big project back then. Now it can be done 'cause of virtual studios and a lot of other technology can be done a lot more cost effectively. And we have a lot more actors that could

Amra Pajalic (10:05.871)
Mm.

Jim (10:28.02)
f fill the roles, whereas back then we really didn't have many male actors, maybe only Hugh Jacklin, that could carry a romantic comedy at that age, at the age of around forty, for the character. so the creative and business is always gotta be considered. The thing is you can't think about that too much when you're writing. Like when you're writing, you know, you've got to write what comes from the heart, from your soul. but if you wanna do, you know, if you wanted for instance to be a script writer

and and come and your first project to be a hundred million dollar sci-fi project, it's not gonna happen. Okay. So th I mean look at the guys that you know, there's so many great horror projects that have come out and and launched careers. they're all low budget projects initially. Big budget now, but low budget initially to break through. So I'm not saying you have to write low budget, but you you just have to be realistic. And then that's the other

Amra Pajalic (11:04.164)
Yeah.

Jim (11:25.9)
issue with coming down. People say, well, you know, I'd rather work totally independently without notes and whatever work. But the moment you're asking for someone else for money, they have a right. Okay? It's someone else's money. They have some right. Okay. So either you have a track record where they can say, you know what, go off and do it on your own. Or they have some sort of confidence in you. We built the confidence with our pilot, for instance, with because channel V was our channel on on on Poxtell. and we went with channel V because

eighteen to thirty year old was that we thought was that's hard to market, even though it went a bit higher in the end. And it skewed it actually skewed female the audience just a bit just a bit. So but we thought MTV or Channel V and the MTV and they both wanted it, which was unbelievable. But the MTV general manager, she was about to go on maternity leave. And we didn't have you know, those personal relationships are so important. You want someone in backing you all the way through. And so we went with Jackie Rudell and basically in the end.

Amra Pajalic (12:12.805)
Mm-hmm.

Jim (12:22.298)
Jackie if she's ever sees this, who was the general manager at the time at Channel V. And and and they were great. You know, they they did more and they actually aired the episodes more than we asked them to that we'd agreed to. And they promoted it more than we'd agreed to as well. Yeah.

Amra Pajalic (12:27.397)
Mm-hmm.

Amra Pajalic (12:37.987)
that's wonderful. And also like I was just curious in a sense, 'cause earlier you were saying you were a copywriter and then screenwriting. How w how did you transition into that? And anyone who's interested in being, you know, screenwriter, what are some ways or things that you've got to share with them on that?

Jim (12:56.331)
Look, it the passion was to become my first my first creative passion was songwriting as a lyricist. So I always collaborated from day one. So I was never used to just total control. and and and I love that and I still write songs with with brands and musos. I I love that whole process. But my f the cre the in the industry I really wanted to film or T V was the real passion, and particularly film back then.

So that was always a focus. Copywriting was just a fundraising thing, you a cash flow. One of my cash flow gigs at the time. And I ha I came from a marketing and entrepreneurial background. So the copywriting made sense. It was, you know, it was it was an easy thing for me to to do as a cash flow gig. Now, you know, AI would probably take eighty percent of those jobs, maybe ninety percent. but and that's you know, it's another story. I don't know if we're gonna talk about that at all. But so that's that was just a funny thing. So it was never

the sort of a copyright into creative transition. It was more that was a cash flow geek. And this is this was a goal. And and that's what I threw myself at. I I investing, I did a five week full time I was in Sydney at the time, did a five week full time actors course in screenwriting. And and then a lots of seminars, workshops, you know, books, in visiting, international visiting, you know, speakers and Robert McKee was probably the ro the big one.

You know, wrote a book called Story. Yeah. Yeah.

Amra Pajalic (14:22.733)
Yeah, that's a three act structure. He's the one who kind of really came up came up with that and got people thinking about it.

Jim (14:29.306)
Yeah, we yeah. I I don't know if he was the one that came up with it, but he you know look, any screenwrite mentor or teacher, eighty percent of what they teach are probably the same. You know, for film, I'm talking film in particular and books maybe differently. But and then they have their spin on it, you know, but he was a he he took my writing to another level, you know. But if I if I read his book and went to his seminar first, I wouldn't have been ready. You know, I wouldn't have been able to take on a lot.

Amra Pajalic (14:38.725)
Mm.

Jim (14:55.747)
And in fact, some of the stuff I still didn't take on, there's one thing they used to push, they're write the truth. Write the truth. And I never really got that. And and it wasn't until funny enough, I had the gig at at Neighbors as a storyliner that Sarah Mabrie was one of the co-storyliners and seniors. So she was actually running the the show for the writing p show for a couple of weeks while I was there. And she's a very successful romance writer and and now screenwriter. And she kept saying,

Find the emotion, find the emotion. And then I put it together and I thought, okay, it's the emotional truth. And and that, whether you're a poet or a screenwriter or a novelist or a documentary maker, where's the emotional truth? That that was kind of another level of the okay, that's my you know, I felt like my writing went to another level. My understanding of the craft, whether it was screenwriting or novel, went to another level. Yeah. But it was an exciting period. So we forget the rules. It you know, it it broke barriers, it we

Amra Pajalic (15:30.109)
Amra Pajalic (15:37.645)
Yeah.

Jim (15:54.839)
We ended up getting the second that the first season was funded by private investors. Second season was funded by Film Vic and Optus TV. even though they let us still still have it on Channel V as well, which was all very lucky in that respect. So Optus T V had their own channels on Foxtel as their channel V. but we couldn't do, we couldn't raise the funding to make it interactive. So it was just 33 minute episodes. And what we did with the second series, we did we released five episodes a week, so it was fifteen minutes a week.

And the plan was always, and I was cultivating those contacts, and was to the next series would be half an hour a week on television or the comedy drama series. And we got really close. So Sue Sue Masters, who was the head of comedy and drama channel ten at the time, loved to get the rules, and we got on really well, and she pushed it all the way to the top to their final meeting with and then Graham Mott at the time, the program director knocked it on the head.

Amra Pajalic (16:34.361)
Mm-hmm.

Jim (16:54.778)
didn't happen.

Amra Pajalic (16:57.445)
That's the thing with the creative world. It's like there is so much in terms of it's your work ethic and then it's timing, then it's the relationships, and then again, you know, forces that are we are victims to in a sense that just

Jim (17:07.006)
Yeah.

Jim (17:14.362)
Yeah. Well you know, you call them gatekeepers, you know, and that this is it's similar to publishing, you know, why and why indie publishing started off. It's there were only about six or seven gatekeepers in television in the country at the time. You got the four the five main channels and then you had Foxtel and that was pretty much it. Yeah. So if one of those people, the head of those you know, departments didn't like it, then it wasn't gonna get up. And no matter

No matter what people say, this is a subjective business as is publishing. People are more hon honest about it now, but anyone who tells you that they've got the Mac or that they're, you know, any kind of brilliance about it, th you know, w walk to the next person 'cause they're they're not being honest.

Amra Pajalic (17:57.923)
Yes, and and that's the terrible thing, 'cause you know, we're seeing in the traditional publishing world the constriction and how there's a lot less opportunities and, you know, publishers are are kind of amalgamating. And so all these amazing writers are are writing these books and submitting and not getting anywhere and it's not a reflection of their work. It is a reflection of the market forces around them and the fact that they are so risk averse now.

Jim (18:09.296)
Yeah.

Jim (18:27.63)
Yeah. Yeah. yeah, more than ever. Yeah. Yeah. And it's you know, television's gone that way even more so with the streamers. So the b but unless you're, you know, got a project with one of the Hemsworth, you know, brothers or at that level, then the budgets are really low. Like there's been a lot of romantic comedies on this coming out through the streamers, but you know, my understanding is some of those budgets for the whole project is one million dollars. So

Amra Pajalic (18:28.302)
So risk averse.

Jim (18:56.049)
no one's getting paid a lot in those projects, you know, and and and and maybe it's more than that, even if there's three million, there's not a lot of, you know, money to spare spread there on a on a film. So and it's one of the problems. And that residual payments that you often get from television shows, they're not there for for streamers either. So the often shows that are repeated over years, you know, like you know, the Seinfeld's friends, for instance, from that era.

Amra Pajalic (18:58.693)
Mm-hmm.

Amra Pajalic (19:04.205)
Mm.

Jim (19:22.026)
Those people have all made millions on the on the residuals going on and on. You know, Seinfeld himself is a billionaire. Not not millionaire.

Amra Pajalic (19:31.465)
But I've been hearing that a lot because you know, there's these shows that, you know, people are rewatching now and the people who are in it are getting cents like literally a few cents. whereas before, if you're like I'm watching Smallville at the moment and I'm watching Mad Men, 'cause I have my favorites that I I like re watching. And, you know, like these shows were made, you know, decade, two decades ago.

Jim (19:42.165)
Yeah.

Jim (19:47.603)
Right.

Jim (19:51.563)
Yeah.

Amra Pajalic (19:57.757)
and they're kind of rotating through the streamers and getting new viewerships and building even more in a sense, like some of the shows that are finished are even in in some ways more popular now because more people are kind of flocking to them. but yeah, the way that the contracts are written has has been changing.

Jim (20:16.391)
Yeah. So that and that's an ongoing thing. And it's as you said, publishers are shrinking, merging or closing. It's so there's less and less, you know, opportunity there. It's so you've got to yeah, it's it's it's it's tough. The the creative industry in general is tough. It it's tough it's tough it's tougher than ever, probably.

Amra Pajalic (20:36.717)
Yeah, yeah, it is. And I just wanted to go back to something that you said earlier, which is that, you know, with screenwriting in particular, if someone is putting money forward, they have their own ideas and you have to collaborate. and that's the thing also with the publishing industry, when they're paying you in advance and they want to publish your book, they shape it. Like w with my debut novel, I had two editors who were interested and each one of them were interested in me revising the novel.

In two completely very different directions. Yeah, you're what they saw the story as, because I wrote it as basically almost like a memoir sort of thing where it was me in the 90s. And then one editor was like, Yeah, let's keep it there and let's really sink into the grunge of the suburb and the high school. And and then another one was like, let's make it contemporary and bring it more.

Jim (21:08.687)
Really?

Amra Pajalic (21:31.235)
to contemporary life. And so it was just so interesting how yeah, it was a it was very like I was signing with an editor that I was aligned with in a sense too.

Jim (21:43.704)
Emory, what hook have you got if two editors within the same publisher are working with the one writer and they can't agree and they're taking you in different directions? There's obviously something wrong with that process, isn't it?

Amra Pajalic (21:52.475)
no, these were two these were two different different publishing publishing companies. Yeah, yeah. I was I was very lucky in the beginning, Jim, and this hasn't ever happened since. I had two publishers caught in me. Those were the good old days. Yeah. and yeah, it was always so funny because I don't know if you can relate to this, but I almost feel like

Jim (21:55.4)
publishing has around. Okay. So then

Jim (22:05.121)
Right. Okay. Hey, I I haven't had that yet, so you know, that's a great. Yeah, that's a big achievement.

Amra Pajalic (22:21.975)
I had all my easier success in the beginning where everything just kind of like and then suddenly it just all became so hard. And it was like, my gosh, trying to get published. And it just yeah, it got to the point where I I almost couldn't write because I was like, I don't know if this is marketable. I don't know if they're gonna be who's gonna interested in this. I don't know if this publisher will want this.

Jim (22:46.814)
Right. And that's the danger in you trying to think of market and you're writing for market. It's it look the best the best you know, the paradox of story is that the more personal the story, the more universal the connection. It's a it's it's a weird paradox, but it's it's true and that's and that's why I'm not afraid of AI for good product, you know, for whether it be films, scripts, etc. Because AI works the other way. They take everything and then dilute it into, you know

i in i i i into something else, you know, but it's it's derivative, right? By nature, AI has to be derivative when it comes to writing. Original stories, right? So there's nothing really original can come from AI. But but we've got, you know, our souls, our heart, our experience, our way of thinking, our, you know, some people, you know, you meet them in the street and you say, well well, you meet them in life and you think, they've got a certain edge about them and y you can't AI that you know. Yeah.

Amra Pajalic (23:41.727)
No. No. And also some of the stories, like when you think about the stories that really have connected, it's those stories that are strange, that can't be quite, you know, quantified, can't be, you know, that endure because of of that uniqueness. I actually use AI for a lot of admin stuff and I was using it for helping me structure my novel.

Jim (23:55.474)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Amra Pajalic (24:07.863)
And it's good for like picking up threads and like, you know, so that I'm like, don't forget that stuff. But it it it really gave me such a a banal structure where I went, yeah, no thanks. I'll I'll I'll go off script, thank you. so you know, it's it's very good for analysing like where I put a a novel through and I'm like, Okay, does this structure work? Have I missed anything? you know, like errors, cause you know how

Jim (24:19.09)
Right. Yeah.

Jim (24:23.918)
Yeah.

Amra Pajalic (24:36.971)
we're working on a book and we just completely lose track of what we're doing. Yeah, so it's good for that stuff. But yeah, as as you were saying, it's that it's derivative. It it is just giving you the most basic ordinary idea because that's what it's capable of. It's collecting all the information and it's giving you a generic thing.

Jim (24:40.922)
Yeah.

Jim (24:56.322)
Yeah, but 'cause it's collecting from, you know, everything. So it's not it's there's no quality control there. So if there's a lot and and let's face it, most books that are published are aren't that great. Okay. And there's books that you've read that are published that you think how did this get published? Money in mind, you know, and there's lots of books I've read and I'm thinking, How did this get published? And so they get through for whatever reason. You it's not not a criticism of that writer or those writers.

Amra Pajalic (24:59.981)
Mm.

Jim (25:25.571)
But that it happens and but AI doesn't discern through that. It just says, Right, this is what the majority of writers have done, therefore it must be good. Right.

Amra Pajalic (25:30.071)
No.

Amra Pajalic (25:35.447)
Yes. Yeah. And that's the thing. And and like I I think that that truly you know, that storytelling that lasts even I don't know, have you been following what they've been saying about Netflix? How they're going down the gurgler 'cause they've been focusing on just content, content, content and not developing anything.

Jim (25:51.402)
Yeah. And so and subscribers, subscribers, subscribers. Yeah, just getting people on board. Yeah, and and the valuations of the business are just ridiculous. Like there's no there's no business justification to it. But this is w happening worse with see if I've got the book here. happening wor even worse with with AI. Sorry, there's a book I wanted to show you, but it's called Emperor Empire of AI. This one. Yeah, so Karen H how

Amra Pajalic (26:17.921)
Okay. Ca Karen Empire of A Inside the Sorry, let me read that fully. Empire of AI, Inside the Reckless Race for Total Domination by Karen Howe, H A O.

Jim (26:32.095)
So I I'm I'm not a anti AI. I've used it as well and and I'm happy to talk about where and how. But Karen writes that book. It's it's like a crime thriller. It's really it's really a fascinating read. Anyway, so we're we're digressing to I AI probably more than you expected today.

Amra Pajalic (26:50.021)
That's okay. I I like it just going where where it goes because I kind of, like a lot of people, was very like, Ooh, AI, new, interesting, fabulous. And now I'm kind of circling the other way where I'm like, It's it's got some good stuff.

Jim (26:59.146)
Yeah.

Jim (27:05.236)
Yeah.

Jim (27:08.839)
Look, as an indie also I found it handy for promotional stuff, you know, to go online. So ca you know, I I love the creative part of it and I love writing pr ideas and whatever I would never use AI to write anything. Okay, that's my joy. So and my experience. So but but I can't I'm not a graphic designer, I couldn't draw anything for peanuts, you know. So and I couldn't afford to do lots of promotions, you know, ongoing that you need to today for social media. And I just found Canva

Amra Pajalic (27:21.348)
Mm-hmm.

Amra Pajalic (27:29.933)
Mm.

Jim (27:37.21)
You know, as as a as a godsend, you know. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. Yeah, yeah.

Amra Pajalic (27:38.477)
I love Canva. my gosh. That is my happy place. Like when I'm not feeling good, I just go onto Canva and start creating graphics. And I'm just like, that's so cute. And I do reels and I'm like, yes. so that that is absolutely my happy place where I'm like, I'm not artistic, but I'm digitally artistic where I have all of those tools at my disposal.

Jim (27:55.334)
Yeah.

Jim (27:59.96)
Yeah. And and so I've used AI within Canva and the other area I've used AI which surprised me is Google offered AI au auto narration of audiobooks. And so I tried it with two of my books and well the first book in particular and I just amazed how good it was. So I was about to I was about to invest it like 'cause that is an India also, you've got do the investment. and it's not cheap to do a good audio book, right? So

Amra Pajalic (28:14.735)
Amra Pajalic (28:20.761)
Mm mm mm.

Amra Pajalic (28:27.349)
Mm-hmm. No, I know 'cause I've done it.

Jim (28:30.231)
Yeah. So I was about to do it and then this came up and and what I found was that, you know, you just in case anyone listening or watching doesn't d know, they offered English at the time, I think there's more languages now, English and Spanish, but English came in four accents. So Australian, UK, USA and Indian English. So so you had options and then you could choose fast speaker, high voice, you know, slow speaker, low voice.

Amra Pajalic (28:51.214)
Jim (28:57.539)
So you had options with it. It was it was amazing. And so I thought, okay, this is AI, but what I can do here is I can give the main characters a voice each rather than have an overall narrator. So I guess give us something more interesting for being an or an AI narrator book. And you can go through and edit it all yourself. But it's that's c all free.

Amra Pajalic (29:16.793)
Yeah, I actually I did that in the beginning. I did all the Google AI books and I actually have them for sale, but I haven't looked at it for a little while. How have you found sales? Have there been people buying?

Jim (29:28.885)
That that trickles through, but th th that's another step. So we talk about marketing of as an indie author. I I took a sabbatical when my last book, More Texas and Sex, was released in September twenty two, it coincided with the week that my mum died. So I just decided after many, many years of pushing the creative arrow, which in just to take a sabbatical and what was gonna be a year took

Amra Pajalic (29:45.922)
yes.

Jim (29:56.024)
the end I've been over two years of not doing big you know, not writing screenplays or or books. And I dabbled in songwriting for the fun, you know, with friends and whatever, just so I kept the creative juices rolling somehow. But I didn't and so my marketing has has dropped off as well. And that was around the time that I released the audiobook. So I haven't to I have to be honest, I've been slacked with marketing my contemporary romance books. but but sales it trickles through and funny enough through Spotify. So 'cause they they sell audiobooks, yeah. But you know, trickle.

Amra Pajalic (30:16.927)
look. I know all about it.

Amra Pajalic (30:22.403)
Jim (30:25.652)
Okay. Come on.

Amra Pajalic (30:27.205)
Well look, that's I I need to go back to it 'cause I have the same as you, you kind of get overwhelmed. We are one one person with too many ideas and and so many creative things we want to do and and only so much time and energy. and so, you know, you kinda do have to compartmentalize and those big events do shake you 'cause it's been about seven years since I lost both my parents.

Jim (30:36.267)
Yeah.

Jim (30:43.773)
Yeah.

Jim (30:56.124)
Right, yeah.

Amra Pajalic (30:56.773)
And yeah, those things they kind of reshape you, they almost reshape your brain. They they just something happens where where you go do a complete shift in your your core, I feel.

Jim (31:02.409)
Yeah.

Jim (31:08.509)
Yeah, yeah. Well for me it was just a good break. Probably nothing else was gonna give me a break because I love the creative whole whole creative thing, so it just a good break. But you know, with the songs I was doing the promotions on Canva and I was you know, we were still writing and so the creative juices were still flowing, but it was wasn't, you know, with a big project. So it was no pressure on it, it was just the fun stuff, you know, so yeah, but don't know where we've got sidetracked there a bit on the

Amra Pajalic (31:33.251)
Well, actually let's go back to your romance. How how did that come about? Because you you have you've gone back to being an indie published author, so that was also a decision that you made. And then also romance, how how did that transition happen?

Jim (31:43.081)
Mm-hmm.

Jim (31:48.461)
Okay, well first I I I'm a romantic. And it was funny, it was through the process of one of the books I I remind I remembered that in grade two I was walking through the school holding hands with a girl called Leanne. Grade two. And even the grade five and six kids were making fun of us, you know, and walk whistles and whatever. And to me at the time I didn't think of it. So some romantics are born and I put myself that category. So I was never

Amra Pajalic (32:12.398)
Yes.

Jim (32:15.65)
I guess I was never anti romance or too tough to be romantic or whatever. That was one thing. But I loved romantic comedies. So in film, t thrillers and romantic comedies are probably my favorite two films. And to this day, Arthur, the original with Dudley Moore, is still one of my all time favorite films. And and it's you know, in many more sense. But so my writing for romance probably is stems from rom my my love of romantic comedies in in film.

Amra Pajalic (32:43.066)
Mm-hmm.

Jim (32:44.395)
Whereas my writing of thrillers, which is what I'm writing now, is that's eighty percent of my reading. So I started reading and it's funny how it happens that you know, in high school, I missed the T V movie 'cause back then it was only like one movie a week on T V. I'd missed it and and my friend said, you can get the book and I went, Book and it was Alistair McLean, Ice Station Zebra. So he writes spy kind of adventure stories. And I ended up just

re writing reading all of his and you know, Len Dayton and Robert Ludlum and then got to got to the king, lacare. Don't listen like bookshelves, but lots of LaCare and and so yeah that it just continued from there. This you thriller spy thrillers and crime thrillers. So so romance is that's you know and up here was the idea that got me into the industry in the first place. I wasn't even in the business when I came up with the idea. I was

I was driving home from whatever job I was doing at the time down a freeway. And and I and I just had this crazy idea. I was just looking up up at the sky and saying, Okay, God, if you're up there, if you're really there. If this happened, if two people, if three people all died, at two you know, this guy had a marriage and she died, and then he got married again and she died, and then he dies, and they're all fairly young still, and they're all in heaven, what happens? so it was

Amra Pajalic (34:07.405)
Ooh

Jim (34:10.582)
that was that was up here. And recently a film called Eternity. Yeah. So so

Amra Pajalic (34:15.651)
I was just gonna say I watched the movie Eternity. So w what's the timeline between your book and that movie?

Jim (34:23.516)
Well I I released the book in twenty twenty but I pitched I've been pitching up here, you know, since ninety eight in Australia, two thousand and three in America, with companies interested. Well I could never I I could never attach a big enough director or cast member to it 'cause I was a first time writer producer and it was a big project as I kept saying. But you know, the I didn't get this spondent because I I I gave it everything I got.

everything I have in the twenty five plus years of that idea. And I made one mistake in the screen history. This is an important one for any, you know new newer writers. the good advice that I got was write the next script, write the next story. That'll help you become a better writer. And you can go back to it later, the one that might be your passion project, but keep writing new projects. But Jim was smarter than everybody else. So I told myself, no, this is such a great idea.

Amra Pajalic (34:56.741)
Mm-hmm.

Jim (35:19.766)
I'm just gonna keep writing and I kept writing new drafts and new drafts and they got better. But you know, in the end that's all I had was this one script, right? 'Cause I was depending everything on that one project until until forget the rules. That was the first time that I got to break away. Whereas now with my books, I've got four out there and I've got a thriller finished and re you know, been pitching it around and I've just started and I've just finished plotting my next thriller. So and I've guess what? Your craft does improve.

Amra Pajalic (35:30.765)
Mm.

Amra Pajalic (35:49.303)
It really does, 'cause I think in I I agree with you. I did the same thing where I was like working on my first novel, which was my romance novel, for three years and working on it and working on it and then I went to something else eventually. and you kind of get stuck because you really do need to move on to the next thing because as soon as you do, you have so much more clarity. Like now I'm working on a six book series and I've got book four coming out, I don't know, in a few days.

Jim (35:49.974)
Yeah.

Amra Pajalic (36:18.453)
and I'm I've drafted book five and I'm drafting book six because you need to finish it. You need to leave it, you need to go back to it, and then you have this incredible clarity about what works, what needs to t be tweaked, and it's just so much easier. and yeah, and and each time you go to the next thing, it just gets better. You know, like you you figure things out.

Jim (36:44.05)
And you you and your craft gets better. You know, if there's one lesson to get across to anybody these days, it's you know, keep chipping away at the craft. 'Cause that's that's all we control. You know, that we can only control how much better we get at the craft, you know, so you keep chipping away at the craft and it's amazing if you do like like your what you're doing and you know, what I'm doing with books, which I didn't do with screenplays, yeah, how how much how much it improves because every book's different and so you y y you learn the craft that bit better. You learn things

Amra Pajalic (36:52.547)
Yeah. Mm.

Jim (37:13.607)
But you you didn't real you didn't realise sometimes you didn't you needed to learn.

Amra Pajalic (37:17.785)
Yeah, and just I think so in the beginning, I don't know if you felt like this, like in the beginning you're like, I will never have an idea as good as this ever again. And then it's amazing that the more that you release your ideas and the more you try and execute them, the more you get. And you're like, this actually actually the more you do it, the more you get ideas, the more inspiration you have. You almost like make yourself stuck if you're not shifting.

Jim (37:26.259)
Ha ha ha

Jim (37:34.971)
Yeah.

Jim (37:39.015)
Yeah it's

Jim (37:42.48)
Yeah.

Jim (37:46.639)
Yeah, I I love the Picasso quote. ever since I saw it, I was stuck in my w office here. It's inspiration finds us, but it has to find us working. Yeah. Yeah. So many people think, you you must, you know, you just write when you're inspired. Well, no, that's not how it works. It's like you gotta write every day. Well for me, five days a week. If I write five days a week I'm happy. because the other two days, usually not a two day break, usually a one day in between.

Amra Pajalic (37:57.187)
Yes, so true, so true.

Jim (38:15.788)
the the story's still working in the background. The characters are still, you know, nibbling away and nagging you and even when you're not conscious of it. but yeah, if you do it every day. So it's like two even two hours, and for me I I like a minimum of three, but and five hours is kind of like what I really aim for when I'm especially on the first draft. But even two hours a day, five days a week is better than one than ten hours on the Saturday, for instance. Yeah.

Amra Pajalic (38:43.787)
It is. And even like, you know, twenty minutes a day is better than trying to find the perfect time. you know, like I I s when I started working full time as a teacher, I had to wake up at five thirty in the morning and do my writing while my child was asleep, my household was quiet, you know, write for an hour, then get ready and and go and teach for eight hours and come home with nothing left, but you

Jim (38:50.647)
Yeah.

Jim (39:02.729)
Right. Yes.

Jim (39:10.049)
Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah.

Amra Pajalic (39:13.293)
you you have to craft that time and now I'm at the point where I'm always doing something. it might be writing or it might be other things, but every day I am doing something towards my craft. When I'm when I'm working on a draft, it is really important to kind of keep engaged with it or you lose the thread a little bit.

Jim (39:25.867)
Yeah. Right.

Jim (39:33.382)
Yeah. It's and you your example is a great example of the importance of discipline 'cause when people ask you what's your best tal greatest talent and I say discipline. It's not you know, it's some people you know it's not story or character or worlds or whatever, it's it's discipline. It's the ability to to finish something or to get started for a start. A lot of people have you know, they've g this great idea and they never start or they don't finish or they don't rewrite. And I had a great mentor early on,

Amra Pajalic (39:44.164)
Yeah.

Jim (40:02.629)
Ron Lee in in songwriting and I and and it it it it transfers into any kind of writing. It's he said real writing is rewriting.

Amra Pajalic (40:11.885)
It really is. It really is. Cause that yeah, I don't know that there are I mean am I hat off to them if they are, the the ones who can just go line by line and and the p book is perfect by the end, not I that you know, I discover and then edit and shape and, you know, bring it to life.

Jim (40:12.453)
Yeah, that's w that's when that real work starts, yeah.

Jim (40:27.195)
No, no there's not.

Yeah.

Jim (40:34.727)
Yeah, I there's someone yeah, but so and so, you know, does it this way. Well, you know, so and so's probably a genius. You know, and and and and you know, maybe died at age forty because of alcoholic poisoning or something. I I d I d it's but if you want work it as a profession then it's yeah, it's chipping away at the craft.

Amra Pajalic (40:52.665)
Yeah, yeah, 'cause I mean, unfortunately, not sh no shortcuts. And even if you you know, like I feel like I had that easy success in the beginning and then it all changed and and that's the thing, the industry is constantly changing and and shifting.

Jim (41:10.991)
Yeah. And so are you, but also you're I mean, w when you were doing your first book, is that when you're having your your first child or is it later?

Amra Pajalic (41:19.671)
No, no, I wrote I wrote my first novel before my daughter and I had my debut novel published. She was actually four months old when my book was published. So it was like both my babies. yeah, but I I don't know, I feel like in the beginning, I don't know if if you know what what you were saying, I I feel like I did that too. I wasted a lot of time and and get stuck on projects rather than writing and releasing.

Jim (41:29.136)
Right.

Jim (41:32.831)
Ha

Jim (41:45.622)
Yeah, but you know Amory, give yourself a break because you know, we we talked about the effect of, you know, parental death earlier in the beginning of this conversation and you're talking about birth there and it's you know that that messes, you know, hormones, body, energy, your whole outlook on life the changes. It's so, you know, it's it's y y and you're still getting so much done. Like it's just, you know, yeah, it's a it's amazing. And y and then I

You come across, you know, people that might be in their twenties or thirties at at conferences or whatever and they're whinging and complaining. I'm thinking, you're never gonna get it any easier. Like, you know, like I you know, I I I did mine after a divorce with three boys that had to put through, you know, semi private schools and cut you know, go and do something like that, then come and talk to me about, you know, how it is, you well go and do what Amherst's done and then go and talk to me about how hard it is. It's

Amra Pajalic (42:37.188)
Yeah.

Amra Pajalic (42:42.221)
That's the thing we we we're in these the people are always kind of wanting to talk to us and finding out the like you know, the secret. What's the secret to craft, to writing, to and and like it really is just ethic. It you know, you you just what you might not have actually I I completely believe this. I believe that you don't actually need as much talent

as you need work ethic, that you know, it it is that constant growing and trying and working. because I have met many, many are more talented than me writers along the way, who have just kind of fallen by the wayside. And here I am three decades later, still choo-chewing along. You know, have you had that experience too, do you think?

Jim (43:28.272)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely that's what I s say I d I think my greatest talent is discipline. The discipline just to sit down and keep keep working at it. And like you said before, sometimes it might not be writing, it might be marketing materials or whatever it is, but something chipping away at my writing business. you know, that I do almost six days a week, you know, but writing I'd try and do at least five days a week. But yeah, it's that discipline, work ethic.

Amra Pajalic (43:56.09)
Mm.

Jim (43:58.158)
The they're they're the no question they're the most important part of being a successful writer. Or a consist a consistent writer.

Amra Pajalic (44:06.598)
And I mean the other thing I'm I'm gonna add there just because I feel like we have to start saying this, be a reader. Please, please. because sometimes it can be quite interesting where it's like, please read. You know, as a as a teacher, I can tell which students are readers in the way that they write, in the way that they're able to generate ideas. There is so much

Jim (44:15.034)
Yeah, of course, yes.

Jim (44:23.504)
Yeah.

Jim (44:32.432)
Really? Yeah. What what what age group what age group are you talking about?

Amra Pajalic (44:36.633)
Well, I teach seven, I've taught everything seven to twelve and you can really tell it's very rare a student who's not, a reader who can write well. I mean, it happens every once in a while, I'm gonna be honest. But most of the time, you know, if they are good at writing, it is because they have been engaged readers and they are engaged readers and then that

Jim (44:39.984)
Right.

Jim (44:48.046)
Okay. Yeah.

Jim (44:59.177)
Right. Yeah.

Amra Pajalic (45:02.789)
'Cause there's so much that you collect by osmosis in terms of sentence construction and and thinking about, you know, things that you don't even realise are there kind of rattling around in your brain.

Jim (45:12.533)
Mm. Okay. Interesting.

Amra Pajalic (45:15.662)
Mm. And what about you where where are you like at the moment your you you took a bit of a sabbatical in terms of movie and film. W where are your future

Jim (45:21.855)
Yeah. So I've taken so I've taken that option as I thought, okay, this is a good time to have a go at a thriller. So I had one particular idea called kidnap with without the eye with a semicolon well not a semicolon underscore in ki instead of the eye. and that's an idea that I've had for a long time and it was option once as a film and the people that optioned it was an Australian producer who had an American contact, an executive producer.

Amra Pajalic (45:37.231)
Mm-hmm.

Jim (45:51.817)
And then they came back to me and said, Jim, we'd we'd we'd like to just, you know, get someone else to write the first draft and 'cause I had it done as a treatment. And but you know, you can have a story by credit. And I said, You know what? No, thanks. And I'm holding on to it. And that you know, it was I was confident enough and old enough I guess to say that. If maybe if it happened in my twenties I would have yeah, you know, any any any break's a good break, but I thought, No. And

Amra Pajalic (45:59.813)
Mm-hmm.

Amra Pajalic (46:04.922)
Awww Yeah.

Jim (46:21.838)
And so that's now the next my first thriller. And it's the story works so you know, after all these years and it I decided to make it as a novel. And it's interesting because after the sabbatical, I knew I was gonna work on Kidnap next. But I didn't know until the day I sat down at my computer whether I was gonna do it as a first step pilot episode of six by one hour T V series, feature film or a novel.

And I sat down and and and and straight away I knew it had to be a novel. I don't know, it was just one of those things that came out of and and and so I've followed that and I've now that's become a series. It's very much a standalone novel, but I've come up with another idea that now that's plotted as well. so yeah, I'm I'm really enjoying it. and I'm not this time though, I I'm going the opposite direction to what you're going. So you off off camera we you asked me about, you know, what

made me going to indie publishing and was it around COVID, you know, because I published my first novel in the middle of our long in September 2020 2020, the middle of Melbourne's long lockdown. And it was exactly COVID that made me decide to go to Indie Publishing. So up here have been knocked back everywhere. Agents, publishers, etc. And my second book got knocked back as well, Three Women November.

Amra Pajalic (47:33.765)
Mm.

Jim (47:46.385)
And and then I had more text and sex ready to to start pitching. But it got knocked back but the publishers, so these are you know, the major publishers in Australia, Penguin and etcetera, and there were qu four of I think still, maybe, and a couple of the others that are next here said, Yeah, well we want to see your next book. You know, it was kinda like that. You know, it's kinda like a sword and a child, you know, double edged sword, you know, on one side that's great, but on the other side, you know

Amra Pajalic (48:13.978)
Yes.

Jim (48:16.252)
r you have to go and write the next book. Yeah. And then so I was about to start pitching a Mortex and sex or start sending Mortex and set out sex out in March and twenty twenty. And I looked around and we're already in lockdown and whatever. And I thought there's no way they're gonna pick up a new author who hasn't got really any clout social media wise, brand new, you know, as far as books are concerned. It's just not going to happen this year. I thought I'm gonna have a go. And then and then the government announced a whole lot of, you know

Amra Pajalic (48:17.261)
Give us something else. Yeah.

Jim (48:45.118)
support packages and you could ac access your super. I thought if I don't ever go at this now, when am I gonna do it? So I committed to up here and the the the the great guy that introduced us, Les, he suggested I go to BusyBird for for my first book. so they're a a hybrid publisher, they help help and invaluable. Like for me for that first book, you know, I really needed that guidance and help and even though it cost me a bit more than than the next three books,

Amra Pajalic (48:57.733)
Mm-hmm.

Jim (49:13.938)
I needed that process at a busy birdell fantastic. So it was Blaze who unlo unfortunately is no longer with us and and Kev who d designed the cover and and the insights. it was a great process, but through that though, I th I came across a whole lot of fantastic people. So I went to the Romance Writers become a member of the Romance Writers of Australia. Went to the conference in Sydney that year and and and

Getting off the bus, a whole bunch of Melbourne writers were getting so off the trip plane, we're going to a particular bus that was going to take us to the venue. And there was about twelve, maybe eight sorry, eight, eight or nine other other writers there, all women. And and that would j the the camaraderie and the support from that second was just amazing. It was just they all introduced themselves, say, Hi, I'm and this is a great lesson for marketing, by the way. I write, you know, inspirational women's stories. Hi, I'm

So and so I wr I write, you know, romantic comedy. Hi, I'm I'm I'm just trying to think of their actual names. Ang Angie and I I I write crime romance. They knew what they write, they knew their audience, they knew what they loved, you know, and that they were friendly. And it was it was the best writing craft conference that I've been to as well. So I've been involved with a lot of the ro of the writers' guild conferences. I've been on on panels, I've hosted panels and they're great conferences, the the writers' guild.

Amra Pajalic (50:21.113)
Mm-hmm.

Amra Pajalic (50:31.108)
Yes.

Jim (50:38.92)
the screenwriting conference, but this was another level, you know, the the workshops and everything else. And all anyone was talking to talking about in the breaks, was craft and and the business, craft and the business, craft and the business. Yeah, it was just

Amra Pajalic (50:55.287)
Romance writers are the forefront industry. Like they are the ones, because my I I also started out in romance and then moved into young adult and then went back to romance. And but yeah, going to the Romance Writers of Australia conference and learning from those writers, they are the ones that are are doing everything first, like every bit of technology, every bit of marketing, everything that is new.

Jim (51:23.341)
Yeah.

Amra Pajalic (51:24.109)
They are the ones that are on are all over it. you know, like I agree what the marketing that I learned from being in that world was just absolutely amazing.

Jim (51:26.617)
Yeah.

Jim (51:37.758)
And the important part, I don't know if you found this, Amora, is that what there isn't a shortage of for indie authors is information and and people that will take your money and time, you know, the training or I you know, there's so many people. So you've got to be really careful where you do it. So those people that I met were able to, you know, guide me and say no th this is the organization that you should be, you know, hooked up with, you know, through Facebook or online or whatever where whatever it was. And and and and they were right, like the p the the the groups that they put me onto were fantastic.

And what I found was by the time Up Here was ready for release, I kind of knew more about the indie publishing world than BusyBird did. Because their their focus wasn't so you know, they they came more from a traditional publishing and and and paperback, you know, and background, whereas the game had changed so much, you know, with especially with ebooks and and print on demand and everything else. So and so that gave me the confidence between the the romance writer support and the particular network of

Amra Pajalic (52:16.397)
Mm.

Amra Pajalic (52:20.835)
Yes.

Amra Pajalic (52:27.45)
Yes.

Jim (52:38.274)
women that I met through that. You know, two or three I still contact, you know, regularly with p about books and ideas and qu you know, industry stuff. It's yeah, that camaraderie is fantastic and probably higher than I came across anywhere in a screen industry.

Amra Pajalic (52:50.362)
Yes.

Amra Pajalic (52:54.115)
Yeah, have to say I agree. I feel like, you know, every other 'cause I've been in in, you know, the young adult world, I've been in the romance, I'm now kind of in the crime. But having said that, with the crime I I am a little bit more 'cause, you know, now that I'm in the indie world and I'm just figuring out what I'm doing, I'm just focusing on the production. But yeah, like, they are

The most generous with their time and with information. And just to go back to what you were saying, I'm just going to quickly include the definitions. So if a publisher is paying you money and paying you in advance, that is traditional publishing because they are buying your copyright. If a publisher

Jim (53:21.593)
No.

Amra Pajalic (53:38.755)
wants you to pay them, then they are providing you with a service. And BusyBird is a hybrid publisher because you keep your royalties. They help you with the publishing process, but your royalties, your copyright is still yours. s that's right.

Jim (53:52.417)
Yeah, well well you're can all the control is your yeah.

Amra Pajalic (53:56.319)
And so, you know, they are one of the ethical companies that I recommend and the other one is Hembury Books. So when I do self-publishing workshops, they are the two companies that I recommend because there have been some horror stories of people thinking that they were being published and thinking that they are you know, with an organization that is providing them with and and just dodgy as

Jim (54:12.729)
Yes.

Jim (54:25.953)
Yeah, yeah. Unfortunately there's there's lots of them around. And so it's good that you you you pro that you promote the two good ones. So I d I don't know about the other one, but yeah, busybird I know because of my own experience. And then, you know, 'cause a lot of people said earlier on, you can do it yourself, but you know, it's a lot. You know, it's an it's hard enough being sure that you can write, but you know, that you can publish the book. Yeah.

Amra Pajalic (54:26.159)
dodgy.

Amra Pajalic (54:29.773)
Mm.

Amra Pajalic (54:34.223)
Mm.

Amra Pajalic (54:38.115)
Mm mm.

Amra Pajalic (54:42.83)
It is a lot.

Amra Pajalic (54:48.482)
it took me years. It took me years. Like I did many, many, many courses and a lot, a lot of research. it took me years and then still you just have to do it because then there's a learning curve. and then it just keeps changing. The industry just is always shifting and changing.

Jim (54:55.804)
Yeah.

Jim (55:04.283)
Yes. Yeah. It's it's like the marketing, you know, it's like I I I have a marketing background so that doesn't scare me and I enjoy creating product, you know, the creative side of that. But it's different now to when, you know, when I was training marketing, so you know, the whole social media world is different. And so just before I took the sabbatical, you know, I started working on a course, ads for also course on TikTok. So I'd already done the Facebook and Instagram course and Amazon a ads call part of it.

Amra Pajalic (55:21.252)
Very

Jim (55:32.455)
But they added this, you know, module for TikTok, which I thought fantastic. And then I decided, you know, after I'd started I decided to have a sabbatical and so but now already two years well ne it's nearly three years now, it's out of date. You know, it's like

Amra Pajalic (55:45.541)
Are you doing that through SPF self publishing formula? They they update it. every course that they do, as soon as things change, they update it. So just go back and do the course again and whatever yeah, yeah. So whenever I've I've got their courses too, and then whenever I'm like, okay, I need to do it again, I go back and they just update the interfaces and and the tutorials.

Jim (55:47.985)
Yes, yes, yeah. They have, yeah.

Jim (55:56.029)
Yeah.

That's what I'm gonna do, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Jim (56:05.863)
Yeah.

Jim (56:10.062)
Well well, to go to your question about what I'm doing now is a it was a big decision and whether I put much marketing time, whether convert the other two books into audiobooks, where and then I decided that that, you know, rule that you keep hitting from people, or that that mantra, write the next book. And I thought there's nothing gonna be more important for my career than to write the next book. Probably also nothing more more important for my joy and my soul, my career's soul than to write the next book. So I'm so glad I've done that because as I said the the idea for the next one already came out and

So I've plotted that. So that's you know, that'll be in the next couple of weeks I'll start that the actual writing of that. and that's and that's a confidence booster for me to say, okay, you can do thrillers and and enjoy it. And I and and as you know, if you if you if I'm going to indie publish them, if I don't get them up in tr in the trade world, then it's better to have two or three of them ready anyway. If you go out yeah.

Amra Pajalic (57:02.563)
Yeah. Well that's why I I was actually speaking to I the adaptable awards, you know, Queensland Writers Centre. I got shortlisted to like pitch my novel to screenwriters, which I will talk to you about when we stop recording and pick your brain. And I was talking to someone and I said, you know, I I had this idea for this series and I started this series and I wasn't going to submit to publishers because I didn't want them to take like the first book.

Jim (57:12.928)
Right.

Jim (57:17.22)
Okay.

Amra Pajalic (57:32.035)
when I had a series planned and had already written the second and third. And she goes, That's very brave. And I went, that's brave. And I'm like, no, that's just logical, because I've seen the publishing world and how they kind of don't grow authors anymore. And you really have to be careful with your intellectual property and where you're going to place it. So I love that story you told earlier about you know your script and how they were like, they'll take it and give you a story credit.

Jim (57:51.351)
Yeah.

Amra Pajalic (58:01.377)
as opposed to you writing it. And it it reminds me yourself of Rocky. Like we've got the he's got the biopic coming out and he refused. They kept trying to buy it off him and he went, No, no, I'm gonna star in it, I'm gonna star in it and he did.

Jim (58:06.765)
Yes, yes, yeah.

Jim (58:15.099)
Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna change his career. And it's in it w you know, just I haven't done a rocky, but I've definitely you know, this is where i you know, it wasn't even what they were suggesting, Amher. It was they in asking that in just suggesting that, they obviously didn't get me. I was in it because I wanted to write it. I was a I was a writer first. So I was a producer 'cause I had some marketing and business background and it just made sense. It helped me to push my projects out and

Amra Pajalic (58:34.532)
Yes.

Jim (58:44.079)
If I wasn't a producer, Forget the Rules would never have happened. The next series which I produced with the makers of Kenny, which is Morty Coots, would never have got made, w which was all made with Screen Screen Australia funding. I wouldn't have got a whole lot of other things, you know, funding along the way. But so that's what I love, you know, it's the writing. So and I made the decision. It's funny, that year that I was nominated for that listing.

I'd already made the decision I wasn't gonna be a producer anymore. And most of the reason for that listing is as a producer really than as a writer. And yeah, and I was I was the ac Victorian chapter head for Spa, the Spring Producers Association at the time. I thought, this is not what I want to do. Time gets more and more limited, I wanna write and just focus on writing. So I actually walked away from producing and not you know, don't regret it at all, but

Amra Pajalic (59:18.285)
Mm.

Jim (59:39.481)
It's th it's those moments you you've got to know w what do you want, you know, what who who who are you as a creative person and who are you just for stock, you know.

Amra Pajalic (59:44.078)
Yes.

Amra Pajalic (59:48.985)
And I think also as we get on in age and we've got less in front of us than we have behind us, because I'm turning I I just turned forty nine and so and there's something also about the mortality of of losing both parents where you really start thinking legacy and start thinking what what are you leaving and what but also what do you want to enjoy? While we're here, what is it that you enjoy most? Yeah.

Jim (01:00:02.306)
Yeah.

Jim (01:00:09.153)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Amra Pajalic (01:00:13.657)
This has been absolutely wonderful. Thank you so much. Now I just want to make sure that viewers and listeners know where to find you. So you've got a website, gymshomos.com. so gymsh o mos dot com. And you've also you're on social media.

Jim (01:00:32.735)
Yes, but barely. not not as not as not as prolific as you, but I will get back into that. Yeah. Yeah. I I have to get this book done I have to for my own soul and confidence and and I'll get back into promotional side from now. And actually you've this this interview's been a good good, you know, inspiration for that and good timing. So

Amra Pajalic (01:00:36.538)
We'll fix that.

Amra Pajalic (01:00:49.239)
Okay. So you're

Amra Pajalic (01:00:57.267)
good, I'm glad because I I actually got a lot out of it. This is why I love this podcast. Like we we are creative people, so you just get an idea and you like go with us and and then I'm like, what am I doing? And why am I doing this? But like I just love talking to people and getting inspirational from people and learning things. And so that's just the energy that I want to bring. And I'm just like, well, I'm just gonna release it and whatever happens, happens.

Jim (01:01:16.524)
Yeah.

Jim (01:01:22.819)
Well good on you. Thank you for inviting me along. It's been good. Yeah. Enjoy it.

Amra Pajalic (01:01:26.891)
Not a problem, thank you so much.