32-How a Viral Comedy Character Sold Out Her Debut Novel (Without Bookstore Gatekeepers), interviewing Jelena Curic
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You can listen above or on your favourite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
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You can listen above or on your favourite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
Show notes
The conversation delves into the multifaceted artistic journey of Jelena Curic, exploring her experiences as a writer, comedian, singer, and cultural representative. From the creation of the character Teta Yela to the challenges of cultural representation in writing, the discussion highlights the complexities of artistic identity and the pursuit of creative freedom. Jelena's journey reflects the triumphs and struggles of navigating the publishing industry and embracing a multifaceted approach to artistry. The conversation covers diverse podcast content, midlife challenges, coping with anxiety and vulnerability, embracing confidence and authenticity, creative risks and content creation, and navigating online identities. It delves into the multifaceted nature of storytelling, the complexities of midlife relationships, and the emotional impact of menopause. It also explores the importance of authenticity, confidence, and creative expression, as well as the challenges of managing multiple online identities and promoting writing and books.
Takeaways
Chapters
Takeaways
- Multifaceted artistry: Embracing diverse creative expressions
- Cultural representation: Navigating challenges in writing and storytelling Diverse storytelling in podcasts
- Navigating midlife challenges
- Embracing authenticity and confidence
- Navigating online identities and content creation
Chapters
- 00:00 Introducing Jelena Churich: The Multifaceted Artist
- 08:29 Navigating the Publishing Industry: Struggles and Triumphs
- 20:01 Artistic Identity and Creative Freedom
- 27:26 Embracing Multifaceted Artistry: Breaking the Mold
- 35:19 Coping with Anxiety and Vulnerability
- 45:05 Navigating Online Identities
Connect with Jelena Curic
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Jelena Curic wears a few hats — literary novelist, crime writer, comedian, and, by her own admission, the resident diva of her local Croatian community, singing most weekends whether or not anyone asked her to. You may already know her online as Teta Jela, the aunty who says the things the rest of us only think. Her name is Jelena Curic.
Jelena's debut novel, Sing to Me, was published by WestWords in 2025. It follows Pero — a Croatian immigrant in 1980s Western Sydney, a flawed and fascinating man who, when Tito dies and his mother's health fails, returns home to confront family secrets, a father who won't speak to him, and the long shadow of a war-torn past. It's a story about silence, forgiveness, and the song the soul forgets it knows. She came up through the WestWords Academy and Accelerator and was shortlisted for the Born Writers Award two years running — and today she's here to talk about everything she learned getting that book into the world. Website: jelenacuric.com, Instagram: @jelena.curic_writer |
Transcript of episode
Amra Pajalic (00:00)
Welcome back to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. My guest today is a woman who wears a few hats, literary novelist, crime writer, comedian, and by her own admission, the resident diva of her local Croatian community. Singing most weekends, whether or not anyone asked her to. You may already know her online as Teta Yela, the auntie who says the things the rest of us only think.
Her name is Jelena Churich, and her debut novel Sing to Me was published by Westwords in 2025. It follows Perro, a Croatian immigrant in 1980s with Sydney, a flawed and fascinating man who, when Tito dies and his mother health fails, returns home to confront family secrets, a father who won't speak to him, and the long shadows of a war-torn past.
It's a story about silence, forgiveness, and the song the soul forgets it knows. She came up through the Westwards Academy and Accelerator and was shortlisted for the Born Riders Award two Years Running. And today she's here to talk about everything she learned getting the book into the world. Welcome Yelena.
Jelena (01:10)
Thank you so much for having me.
Amra Pajalic (01:12)
I just have to say that I personally like I love Teta Yella and I can't wait until we we start talking about her. But
Jelena (01:19)
Thank you. I've got a real soft spot for her as well. I'd love her.
Amra Pajalic (01:22)
I know well when when she talks, I'm like, ⁓ she is my grandmother, she is my aunt, you know, she is every Balkan woman out there. And I I especially love her and the contrast to the woke mum and mother of summer breeze and ⁓ the parenting of summer bree breeze versus ⁓ Teta Yeller. Actually let's start.
Jelena (01:29)
Yes, yes, yes. God bless Yes. Yep. Teta Jela's old school. Yeah, old school. how did she Teta Jela's been a nickname of mine for the longest time. And when I gig, all the young ones, and actually everyone just gets, hi Tethyella. That's just I so I just got that nickname. And then when the book came out, ⁓ I just, I, I just, I don't know, a video I real idea came in and I just started with these simple ideas.
Amra Pajalic (01:49)
Let's let's start with this. How did this come up? Like how did you discover t
Jelena (02:13)
sudden Teta Jela, this character came and I just I did I think I did a few reels and the response was so positive and honestly it's been a just a very organic just moving through and I just kind of was watching and I'm thinking people are starting to repost and people are commenting and I went okay it wasn't something that I had planned I just thought okay I've always loved comedy and loved trying to be trying to be funny. And so it just progressed and now it's kinda really it's blowing up a bit. I'm going out at functions and people are coming up asking for photos with me and they're ringing their friends going, Guess who I'm talking to? And it's really beautiful. I have so far had nothing but really beautiful positive responses. It's been lovely.
Amra Pajalic (02:53)
I remember your your early reels where it was something like, you know, needing to market my books and you're wearing the Vegeta apron and Yeah.
Jelena (03:00)
Yeah. Yeah, and that was that was just it just happened. It flowed and I thought I'll try something. I'm with such a small publisher, ⁓ I thought I I've got to do what I c whatever I can. And then I just I threw caution to the wind, just like keep going, keep going. And all of a sudden I've just fallen in love with this content creating. I I really have, and it gives me so much joy.
Amra Pajalic (03:22)
Well, I have to say, you g you give so much joy.
Jelena (03:22)
And it is lighting. Thank you. It I I love it. And I'm not just within, say, the the Slavic Balkan community, it's actually crossing. And I've got Aussies that coming up and and particularly maybe because of Summer Breeze's mum. that was a pure fluke. I don't know where she came from. I just put that out and that that's now got a million views and I'm like, my God. It's it's crazy.
Amra Pajalic (03:41)
Ha ha I just love it. I love it. Cause I'm a teacher, you know, so I work in a school. Yeah. And so for me, I I work in a school where ⁓ 97% non-English speaking background. So but having said that, we are getting more and more of those parents who like ⁓
Jelena (03:50)
you're a teacher as well. yes. Yep, see? ⁓Uh-huh. Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (04:06)
Even someone was telling me the story where they have like CCTV footage of kids doing things and showing the parents they're like, No, no, no, no, that's not my child. It's it's AI doctored. ⁓ ⁓
Jelena (04:15)
I'm a office lady, so that's where I get it. I I I see the parents first hand. So they come to my and then I will speak 'cause I love my teachers, so I will talk to my teachers. So I just observe. It I just watch what's going on and parenting has definitely changed. Very much.
Amra Pajalic (04:25)
It really has 'cause also like, you know, the the ones who are the migrants and especially the newly arrived am migrants, they come with so much respect for education and so much respect for teaching and and you know, the opportunities and the doors that it's going to open. and then there's the other side where it's a bit like I don't know, and and like you know, as a parent and as a teacher it breaks my heart 'cause I'm like, you're not helping that kid by giv not giving them consequences.
Jelena (04:54)
Tonight. but can I tell you? Can I tell you that the the if you want to call it that woke, maybe ⁓ way too involved parent is actually crossing cultures now. It I used to think it was perhaps just ⁓ more of an Anglo-white kind of thing. It's not anymore. It is crossing into every continent, it's crossing every nationality, and I'm noticing that more and more.
And expectation where where we were from a generation our parents have said, you know, ⁓ what are you doing wrong? ⁓ you it's not what ⁓ it's your the onus was on you as the child you get in there and learn, and now everyone's going, what is the teacher doing for you? What is the te and that's crazy? It's like what well they the vast majority of teachers are
They're brilliant. They do the best that they can and they want they're there to teach your child but w the expectations from parents is it's it's on it's it's it's too much. I'm gonna be honest, I'm finding it too much and it's very draining on on teachers. Very, very draining.
Amra Pajalic (05:57)
Yeah, cause they're supposed to be partners.
Like, you know, as a parent, you are there to advocate and to be the soft place for your kids, but you are also there to parent and to set expectations and, you know, to work in partnership with the school to, you know, get your kid to ⁓ get the most out of it. Yeah, it is it is it is interesting 'cause like I I did the hard yards with my daughter in primary school and now she's one of those really wise
Jelena (05:59)
Absolutely.
Amra Pajalic (06:25)
teenagers who's very much her brain does not match her chronological age. And yeah. Maybe it's the only child thing, 'cause have you got an only child also?
Jelena (06:30)
I'll go one of those. Yeah, I got one of those. Well no, I've got a boy, but boys are a different breed of animal yet again. So I they they belong on different on a different planet. They are very different he's he's just very different. ⁓ but in saying that they were both e g during school, I I didn't care. I used to go, okay, what did you do? Don't tell me what you know, I think I only had to go up to the school once because of some sort of a a yeah, another boy had crossed the line and that was about it. I never I was not the parent that kept constantly coming up going, you know, my
Amra Pajalic (06:38)
Yeah.
Jelena (07:01)
child my child my child no but they say them you guys have got to learn to work that out when you go to work you've got to learn to work with a boss that you might not like you've got to learn to work people that you may not click with you know it is just what it is
Amra Pajalic (07:06)
Yes. And that's the thing I tell I tell my students. I'm like You may, you know, there may be a lot of things about school that you don't like and a lot of things that you think you're learning that aren't ⁓ maybe of benefit to you. But learning to wake up, to be there on time, to do things you don't like doing, to push through, to get along with people. ⁓ because you know, we are grown-ups, we work with a lot of people who are different to us that we don't like, and that's just life, darling. Life in the big city. Yeah. anyway, well, to go back to Tatiella, she is awesome and she
Jelena (07:27)
Exactly. Yeah. Amen. Amen.
Amra Pajalic (07:45)
She is the best fun. And also you actually got a second print for your book, I think, based on Teta Yella. You wanna talk that through?
Jelena (07:52)
Yes, yes, yes. as in sorry, the second print
Amra Pajalic (07:57)
Yeah, yeah. So do you think that Teta Jela and the social media and like, you know, you really got built an audience?
Jelena (08:01)
I did yes, yes, I dare say it yes. look for me the I have struggled for me I think getting books into bookstores have been has been a struggle for me. for somebody who is so you would come across think of me as this incredibly confident out there person, I struggle going into places like that and
And people, you know, the the shop people looking at me like, ⁓ you sad little thing and I get I take it really hard. So I that I found really difficult. so I thought, Okay, no, maybe my I'll just keep trying to push it through that online. that that online would have been was an easier option for me. ⁓ look, we can talk about like publishing gosh, I've learnt a lot. ⁓ Yes.
Amra Pajalic (08:40)
Well, let's start. What what are your what is it that ⁓ writing sing to me taught you that you don't think could have learnt from, you know, workshops and stuff? What were the big surprises?
Jelena (08:50)
⁓how how incredibly difficult it was. How incredibly difficult it was. I
Amra Pajalic (08:53)
Mm.
Jelena (08:56)
You know how they tell you childbirth is gonna hurt? But not until you're actually in it. You're not gonna you don't understand. But when you're in this, I I had no idea just how difficult and there is a structure to putting a book together. And even though I have been an avid reader from third grade and I am well into my late fifties now, I'm like, wow, sitting down and actually having to put that together. That
Amra Pajalic (09:01)
Mm mm.
Jelena (09:18)
until you're in it and you're doing it and for someone like me who had a mentor and guidance, that's no. You you just have to get in and do it.
Amra Pajalic (09:27)
Yeah, and also there comes a point like, you know, you write and you can revise and you can do all the work yourself, but you need a different perspective and also you need that perspective from people who are in the know, who are, you know Yeah.
Jelena (09:36)
Absolutely. God, yeah, yeah. That was where I was incredibly ignorant. I didn't I didn't get it. And then then the light every now and again the light bulb moments would come on. ⁓ now okay, now I understand what you're trying to tell me. But it was hard. It was really, really, really hard.
Amra Pajalic (09:52)
And did you have to submit many places or?
Jelena (09:55)
look, I did for I I I think I submitted all over the shop for ages, but I didn't I it wasn't until I came across say West got into the the Westwords Academy and then got into the accelerator program that I realized, okay, I really needed that guidance. I needed a mentor and I needed someone to go, no, no, this let's go through this with you because I I'm getting I'm I'm under the impression with the bigger publishers, they're not willing to do that. It's no, you got you better have your act together now.
And it's gotta be ready, whereas that's why I think it just wasn't gonna happen because I just didn't know how to do that. I needed I needed my handheld. Yeah. yes, yeah. And so I thought that that's so i I realised no, no, that was perfect for me. For someone like me, that was the the best thing that I could and I learnt a lot. I needed to have my hand held going through this and I was happy to
Amra Pajalic (10:27)
It's getting harder. Yeah, and that's the thing. And a lot of people are now encouraged to, you know, get mentors during the writing process and then also who will support them in the publishing process and in in all of that. Yeah, because there's a lot less opportunities now. There's a you know, a lot of amalgamation of publishing houses and so you're kind of in this really like, it's your one chance and that's it. You can't blow it.
Jelena (10:51)
Yeah, it was that was really lucky, very lucky. Yeah, and I'm you know, and I and I have friends who who've been trying to get ⁓ deals ⁓ particularly say with the bigger publishers and you're right, it is and it's getting harder. And I don't know if I'm wrong in saying this, but the scope of what they want is getting narrower. If you know, a story like mine, they just they weren't interested or they just didn't w what am I gonna do with that? You know, it isn't it you know, if you're writing and I'm not putting any no disrespect to any of these writers who write these John but if you know romance, romanticy, crime, but particularly crime set out in the outback, there are certain things that are okay, we know that'll sell, you know, they call it women's what a women's lit or that kind of yeah women's with that kind of that's but I I don't that's not my thing and I don't know that's not what I read nor what I write
Amra Pajalic (11:48)
Women's fiction, yeah.
Jelena (11:58)
You know, I love crime, but I'm kind of a bit tired of it being set in an outback. I can't or a coastal town. I would like something that's a bit more can we just broaden it a bit? That would be beautiful. so yeah, yeah, and it's hard. It is hard, hard, hard. And I think you've just gotta with writing, you know, with writers we're we're just artists and we're emotional and you can really beat yourself.
Amra Pajalic (11:58)
Mm.
Jelena (12:20)
⁓ into a pla a really k sort of scary place sometimes where you can get quite down on yourself and think, I'm not good enough, I'm never gonna get there but that's the nature of art and n even more so now it's just getting harder and harder.
Amra Pajalic (12:31)
Well, that's the thing I I kind of one of the things I keep saying to people is if you're not getting an acceptance, it's not a reflection on you. It is not a reflection on your writing. It it really is just so much the shrinking market. And I was traditionally published and I had lovely apprenticeship into the publishing industry and now I am indie
Jelena (12:40)
Yeah, it's not yeah.
Amra Pajalic (12:55)
I run my own small press and I do everything myself. and I am very happy at this point in my life doing that because I want complete creative control. yeah.
Jelena (13:06)
I see I love that. That to me is heavenly. And that's why I love with being with someone, a smaller Westwords books. I'm under they would I was never under any pressure to you gotta sell. You gotta sell them, you gotta make money. I was allowed to write the book I wanted to, and now I can with book two, which I I think will come out next year, it'll be I can promote it my way, I can do you know, it's my book, you know, and we work together. but there's that beautiful support and the lack I just there's no stress. No one is screaming at me, no one's going, I'm not worried that I'm just gonna be dropped. See you later, we're not interested anymore. You know, so Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (13:38)
Yeah. And that's the reality for a lot of publishing houses and it's happened to a lot of writers.
Jelena (13:43)
A lot of great writers. I'm hearing that. That's happening to a lot of ri and as writers who were have established and have writ sold books and they're they're just getting flicked.
Amra Pajalic (13:52)
Yeah, I remember at one point, I think when I my anthology Growing Up Muslim in Australia was published and I was going to a lot of bookish events and talking to a lot of people who had been in the industry for so much longer than I have and they were like getting ⁓ i advances that were smaller than ever, or struggling to get a publishing deal at all. And I was just like Wow. you know, 'cause you you have this thing of when you get published, you've made it, it's all good. ⁓ but
Jelena (14:20)
Yeah, no, it's not how it works. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (14:23)
Yeah, yeah. I was on maternity leave when I had my book published and I ⁓ resigned from my job 'cause I was like, Well, I made it. Not the best decision. No. No.
Jelena (14:31)
Mm. Yeah. I know. It's I look I learnt that back you know, back in the nineties when I was, you know, had a recording deal and you think, set, beautiful and when your second single doesn't have the success that they had hoped for. There's no album. There's just a letter in the mails telling you, see you, thanks very much, but we're not gonna keep you on anymore. So I learnt the hard way. So now I don't look at it, I just look at my aim was I wanted a book. I've got a second one that I really very different, but it's okay. Am I waiting on money? please. Please I'm looking at it's okay, baby. I a I got I got a little part on gig. I can survive with that, but no, it it's more the for me and it is, it's
Amra Pajalic (14:59)
Mm.
Jelena (15:12)
the book, it's the art of the book itself. It's just having this story that I'm proud of and put it out there and, you know.
Amra Pajalic (15:18)
That's the thing. I wanted to talk about ⁓ the ethics of telling a Han story because and correct me if if this ⁓ like tell me if this is all correct. But Piero Sfada is a former fascist soldier and the persecution of Romani people sits inside the story. so how did you decide how much historical weight the novel could carry and how did you sort of mediate those those hard because that's something I've grappled with too.
Jelena (15:28)
Mm-hmm. It's hard. It was really, really hard. I I had that fine line of th there had to be there had to be some truth in it. There had to be it it's a part of history and and it it was a part of the storyline. ⁓ the character had to go on he's going on a journey and and the fact that he doesn't speak to his father and I don't want to give away anything but what happened to his father and the reasons why his father does what he does. There has to be some truth in that. And there has to be it has to be ⁓ I think
There has to be that heaviness there to make you understand. ⁓ okay. Now I understand why he made those choices. What was going around around, what was ⁓ happening in the in around him, his life. Why did he do these things? and that's a ri it was a yeah, it's a tough one. And I had to be careful because I didn't want to upset my own community, which I am, you know, because I'm a I'm a vet look, I'm a Croatian girl. That you never called me Yugoslav growing up. I was Croatia, that was who I am.
And it's it's still very much part of who I am. So there was that fine line, but in it, I'm telling a story. It's still a it it's it's fiction. They aren't it's not based on anybody. I've had people go, it's it's based on so-and-so. Someone I said, relax. It's not actually based on anybody, it's just this this story, and I chose that period of time because I am old. I'm from that, I'm that first generation from from you know, a first-generation Croatian here who heard all these stories growing up.
Amra Pajalic (16:43)
Yes.
Jelena (17:03)
And so that was a story that I wanted to tell. Plus I'm a musician and I wanted music running through it. I don't know where these c this and then this this and I was always fascinated by the whole Roman gypsy culture. Because when I went I went there in 79, I was fascinated by it, terrified, because everyone made sure made sure to say you to be scared of them. And I just went, you know, I was eleven and I thought these people are fascinated.
To me. But I was terrified. I didn't want to go anywhere near them because everyone was putting the fear of God into you. But I always stayed with me and I just thought I want to put, I just wanted to tell a good story. I wanted to tell a good story and I wanted to take this when you're reading it. I wanted you to go, okay, now I get why these things were happening. And they were perhaps valid. You just didn't pull them out of the, you know, out of the air. These, these, there is a part of this history that a lot of people don't get, you know.
Amra Pajalic (17:30)
Mm.
Jelena (17:50)
But yeah, that's but it was hard. I had to really think and know what hopefully know what I was talking about.
Amra Pajalic (17:54)
Mm-mm. And like that's the thing. Now as writers, you know, after the book is published, we deconstruct the deep ideas. But at the end of the day we're artists, it just comes to us. You know, we just get these images and and then we're like, ⁓ that's that's interesting. I'm just going to go with that. ⁓ and then you're like, Well, I don't know where that came from, but I'm I'm digging it. That's that's good.
Jelena (18:06)
It is, yeah it's amazing how you're you're so right. I don't know where some of these stories will come. I'll go, I don't know. Just ooh, hello, I'm having a coffee 'cause I would go out and always have a coffee in the morning, take a little notebook and I'd go, Okay. And then I'd write a sentence and come home and then I'd work from there. These just or I'd be at a gig and I don't know, a and there'd be a song I was singing or was listening to one of the boys sing a song and I'd go,
Amra Pajalic (18:32)
Mm mm.
Jelena (18:38)
that the the sentiment behind that song would would hit me and then I'd write. Or I'd hear stories from the boys we'd be talking about older musicians and things that they would talk about. And so I'd just put these little make notes. Yeah, that just comes. And I was lucky enough to be a part of, you know, a world where I could listen. And also then my mother would sing, she's constantly singing to me all these songs that she made up as a as a young woman. So I would just write. I'd go, stop, and I'd write everything down. So
Amra Pajalic (19:04)
I love it. It's so good. It's it's ⁓ yeah. So I just wanted to sort of touch on that, you know, in terms of the identity and the culture and creativity. So had you you touched on it a little bit in terms of ⁓ you know, the way that it shaped you and hearing all these stories and and ⁓ being part of the Croatian culture. But I also just wanted to know because I feel like a lot of us, or I'm just gonna talk about myself and then I'll let you see. I felt for a long time like my culture was almost like negative and it took me a long time. Like I tried writing in a few different ways and tried writing like Anglo characters and it was my husband who was like, there's so many people writing that you need to write what is unique to you.
So it's Is that something that you sort of struggled with also in terms of writing something that you think is going to be published or something that you think that is going to work versus, you know, what what the voice is and what what the story that that that you want to tell?
Jelena (19:56)
I'm gonna be honest, I I no, I that never can s I just write what I I can only write what I can write. My ⁓ what I know, what my story is, and I knew, I think I always felt like I wasn't I think I part of part of you were ⁓ I'm sure that a big publisher will see me and think this is a maze and then I realised mm that's not gonna this is probably a story that's not that easily accessible for them or they know what to do with so I thought I'm not gonna change to suit another market or a the market because that's not why I wrote the book. In the end it was just the story that I had to tell. So I never felt and I I you can tell I think you can tell when a writer's you know almost faking it. What am I gonna start writing, you know, about characters that I don't get, I don't understand. I you know, I just wouldn't I couldn't do it.
Amra Pajalic (20:43)
Yeah, I think with me 'cause I started out in genre and I was writing romance initially. So it was very much thinking from that commercial lens and publishability. And then it took me a while to kind of
Jelena (20:51)
⁓ yeah.
Amra Pajalic (20:54)
And then I felt like, you know, I had like romance books published and that didn't anything traditionally and nothing happened with them. And then I was really bitter about the time I sort of spent on that. but ultimately I'm now very firm on what I'm wanting to do and I'm not letting things shake me anymore. You know?
Jelena (21:12)
I like that. See, yeah, just write I don't look, I'm probably not as I I'm gonna be honest, I'm not a prolific writer. I don't write every day. ⁓ I write in spurts. So at the moment I'm waiting, book two is sitting there and I'm just gonna wait till I have to go back and polish it, fix it all up. and but I'm been I don't know what to write. But my writing now is just my little skits. I think that's what I'm doing. That's where I'm concentrating on just thinking constantly, writing these little tiny little things that but ⁓ yeah, for me, no, book two
Amra Pajalic (21:22)
Mm mm.
Jelena (21:41)
Is still me, as in there's nothing there, and all these characters are I'm I feel positive about them, as in I don't feel like anyone there is fake or I've had to I've written for a a market. ⁓ I don't care anymore. I write a story and if you like the story, beautiful, read it. If you don't, that's okay. There's books for everybody. Yeah, there's books for everybody.
Amra Pajalic (21:53)
Mm. That is the beauty. That's the beauty of midlife. Like, I feel like it took me a long time to get to this point, and that's that's exactly how I feel. And there is such joy and peace at being like
Jelena (22:09)
Yes. Just write your you write your thing. You you you know what you're doing. You know who you are. I love it.
Amra Pajalic (22:14)
And have you had 'cause you you've had 'cause you know, you said Tietyelli's now connecting with people across and outside of of the community. what about ⁓ your book? You know, has there have there been any surprising
Jelena (22:25)
Yeah, it's yeah, I think I've had I mean obviously a lot of the Croatian community, but say Aussie friends that I know that have have ⁓ read the book and some of them have gone, ⁓ I was they they said, Well, number one, I learned something and they cried, which is that's my aim because it's quite a I think there's an emo it's quite an emotional element and I'm hope by the end that you could go, okay, you know, you feel that. yeah, so it has been quite positive.
You know what? I'm gonna be honest, I don't ever ask anyone what they think. Never. I okay, I asked my husband, I asked my daughter, I asked my sister. Everyone else, I didn't ask them because I try to pretend I'm really tough it, but I'm not but if someone comes back to me and tells me it was crap, I'll I'll be shattered. So I don't. If they want to give me their opinion on the book, then beautiful. I know it's genuine. If they don't, then I just go, better that I don't know.
Amra Pajalic (23:12)
Yeah, if you if you I I don't care. If you don't like it, that's fine. Don't read it. But don't feel the need to tell me. I don't need to know.
Jelena (23:16)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly don't rip me to shreds about I mean I've done the best y you as a writer you do the best that you can. if yeah, but
Amra Pajalic (23:26)
And there are so many books out there. This one doesn't work for you. You find what works for you. You know, it's it's it's just you know, and also like at the end of the day, I feel like we write for ourselves. We write what we want to read it ⁓ and what interests us. And then it's just a matter of other people connecting with that.
Jelena (23:29)
⁓ no. Yeah. I'm with you on that one. I'll you know, it you yeah, exactly. Your your readers will find you and beautiful, let's go on this journey together. If and if they're not few that's okay too.
Amra Pajalic (23:50)
Mm-mm. So, in a sense I wanted to like I love that you're doing so many different things because you know you you you were you still are a singer, but you did have the contract and you've gone through that. So maybe in a sense your lessons with writing because of that hard earned journey through ⁓ the pop scene. I saw a photo of you on your website when you were at the height of your pop. I know.
Jelena (24:18)
I used to be a spunky little thing. Now I just look like a librarian or an accountant. I always joke with people who go, you know, I go, I know I look like someone that does your taxes, but I'm very good at what I do. I'm a really good singer. So I think I I I just it's I do it really well. and they just look at me and I go, just believe me, I'm actually very good. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (24:29)
Yeah. So you still sing, ⁓ like
Jelena (24:40)
Pretty much nearly every weekend. I still I still do the gigs. Mainly ⁓ I do mainly sing with a band called Stornasart, which is a Croatian band, but I do fill in gigs ⁓ in the Aussie scene. I still do that. I don't work as much as I used to. I find it it it's very draining. It's hard. I don't physically I'm finding it tough. ⁓ you know, I've still got a day I do I have a part time day gig. ⁓ I've got the writing, ⁓ and you know I've got a my family it's it's a lot. So I don't wanna work. constantly. ⁓ and that's yeah, that's it's enough for me. I love it. I still go out and just that's my social life because I'm a very antisocial person. I don't go out. So for me that is my social life.
Amra Pajalic (25:08)
And so like do you think that, ⁓ you know, like in a sense e every industry it's like you're supposed to have one clear lane, but you're sort of going between and now you've got Teta Yela and the comedy and that. are you finding that people are very receptive and it's all just sort of working? You're yeah.
Jelena (25:34)
Absolutely. Yeah. The ones that like Teta Jela and the comedy f they like that. The ones that maybe those those that that will read the book are interested in reading the book. ⁓ the music is that I'm at gigs. People will turn up to a gig. I I that's it's yeah, I don't know, I've I can do it all. It doesn't nobody's said no one has said to me you you can't. What are they gonna say to me? No one owns me, no one's, you know, paying me just to do one thing and say you can't do all the No.
Amra Pajalic (25:53)
Mm. Mm.
Jelena (25:58)
This is my I'll I'll do whatever I'll do whatever I want. And you know, I love it.
Amra Pajalic (26:02)
That's the thing. Like, what are your well exactly? I feel like there's so much you're supposed to like, I you know, even like in this podcast ⁓ that I'm doing, my thing is I just want to interview people I find interesting and learn from people. Yeah, and share lessons. And then you know, I get these like emails about podcasting and stuff, and they're like, niche down, niche down, and I'm like
Jelena (26:18)
I think that's wonderful, you know? Why?
Amra Pajalic (26:29)
I don't know. I don't I don't wanna niche down. I just I just wanna talk.
Jelena (26:34)
I I just would I love that if you just why why do you I don't get this. If look, when I get I I'm I love podcasts. I'm a podcast true crime, my God, I'm obsessed. So but I know what I know what I'm getting when I get, you know, and I will I'll find whether it's, you know, ⁓ you know, traditional ⁓ your murder, you know, they're sort of s all s swindlers. I love a swind good swindler story. there's there's different genres, but no, this I know if I'm gonna listen to a writer, I don't expect every single writer that someone has on the podcast to be all romance or all you know, what's absolutely you know.
Amra Pajalic (27:05)
No. We're we're multifaceted. We're we're we're all different. Mm. So do you wanna tell us a little bit about this second book and is it different to your first one?
Jelena (27:15)
very different. This one is crime, but it's crime set in the late eighties. And it's two mates, ⁓ just two young ⁓ petty crims who are somehow get themselves involved in a crime, in a murder, and with some big wigs that and they're like, How did we get here? And it's got it's quite it's fun. It's very kitsch, it's fun. it's based on a couple of ⁓ real life situations, things that ha that ⁓ that ⁓ or people that I knew in the past so I've used that and it is just a lot more it's fun. It's just so I yeah I like I really actually really very different. Very different from the first book.
Amra Pajalic (27:52)
Yeah, I'm I'm like w I'm doing a crime series at the moment. I love crime fiction and and yeah. It's yeah, my happy place now. I I I saw something about like in our twenties and thirties we you know, we're looking for a partner, we're into romance and then we go through menopause and we want to kill our husbands and so we're into crime.
Jelena (27:55)
Yeah, yeah, I know, I know. So yeah. It's beautiful. It's so true.
Amra Pajalic (28:13)
Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause you know, I've been married twenty nine years. There's ⁓ a lot.
Jelena (28:17)
Yeah, I've been with yeah, I've been with mine. I think we're coming up to forty forty years this year together. I'm chasing I have to go I don't remember. Yes, it was about forty yeah, so we've been together a really long time.
Amra Pajalic (28:23)
Yeah, and there's a different like, you know, you go through different relationship decades in a sense. Mm. And this one is nice because nothing approved. Nothing and you just are and you just kinda keep growing as people and growing side by side. But it's just you know, there's still romance there, but it's just changed shape.
Jelena (28:34)
Gorgeous. Yes. Yeah, I agree. It it's a different it's a I love love is really interesting, this whole the way love sh changes that shape of love within a ⁓ a relationship and the longer you go. 'Cause we're you know, we're I'm be we're quite currently sandwiched 'cause we've got ⁓ both mu mothers that we kinda have to keep an eye on, take care of.
And then we have my my kids are in their twenties but I still have to keep an eye on I feel like th my daughter's forever saying no you don't but I go, Well, you're still my child. I mean, I know you've moved out and you're doing your thing, but I will always are you okay? You know, how how are you paying your mortgage and all that's those sort of things. So I'm still feel like
I'm kind of balancing and I'm trying to take care of him as well, take care of myself. But I always win I'm I don't care what anyone says. We carry the emotional load and we put ourselves last all the time and everyone's emotional crap gets thrown on us. It is the way it is. And it's just making sure that you somehow stay buoyed up because my God, it's hard. It can be can get really, really hard.
Amra Pajalic (29:47)
It can. We were talking before we started recording about menopause. ⁓ what has been your journey? It's a journey, I would say. It's a it's a pit stop we don't want.
Jelena (29:55)
⁓look, I'm yeah, I haven't I'm finding I I have found it ⁓ I've har found it hard. ⁓ but HRT has helped a lot. my ha I think the hardest part is the brain fog and and I made a joke one the other day I did a reel. I'm actually on stage.
I'm so tired and I'm looking out and I can't remember that I almost forget I've started songs in the wrong key. I can't remember where I've s whether I've sung a second verse or not. I don't know whether I'm supposed to repeat a chorus. ⁓ I'm get you know, I will sometimes look at the boys in the band and I go, but I'm not I haven't done anything. I'm just looking at them and I'm grumpy and I'm like, or I'm looking at the crowd and I'm grumpy, but it's not them, it's just that I'm I've either overwhelmed or just I'm tired and I'm like, I
You know? So that it has been it that's been the emo and just the emotional roller coaster. It is. my god. Up down, up down. I I was convinced for a quite a while that P everyone was gonna leave me. It was I this I couldn't work out why everyone's gonna leave me. Everyone's gonna leave me. Nobody likes me, everyone's gonna leave me. And I couldn't get out of that at all. Just
Amra Pajalic (30:54)
Yeah. Mm, it really does it sends you to some dark places and you it feels like a switch where it's almost like I've never been this negative and I've never had such dark thoughts and yet and it's also like you can't talk yourself like, you know, you do practice the gratitude, but I have this and I have that and I shouldn't be but y you can't talk yourself out of it.
Jelena (31:02)
Yes, yeah. It's the vulnerability and I and and being feeling so vulnerable and you you can't you and you can't find that strength to stop to stop and be more objective and go, Well why are you this nothing's what what makes you think that everyone's gonna leave you or what makes you think that everything's gonna fall? It's just crazy. I I don't know. And yeah.
Amra Pajalic (31:40)
Is it the anxiety? Like do you feel that constant generalized anxiety?
Jelena (31:42)
Mum on the queen of anxiety. I'm constantly anxious about stuff. I'm always got that's just ⁓ that that's
Amra Pajalic (31:47)
Mm. Cause for me, like I never I never was an anxious person and then suddenly there was this constant feeling of something's wrong. Something's not right. And it was just like, my gosh. But like you, I'm on hormone replacement therapy. so much.
Jelena (31:55)
Yeah, that has helped. It's helped with the the hot flushes. It's helped me kinda it has been good. ⁓ we'll s yeah, but it's not been easy. And you know, you watch yourself age and you kinda have to accept it and you go, Yeah. No, I mostly I'm pretty good, I don't care. But every now and again you go, Lord have mercy, who's that lady? But it's me.
Amra Pajalic (32:07)
Yeah, ⁓ I'm like at the point of 'cause I've got like a few like most Balkans, you know, the the, you know, ⁓ Shechet, Clark, you know, the diabetes, the blood pressure, so I
Jelena (32:33)
You gotta keep an eye For me it's just the beard. I'm like, Ayoy, come on, you know. I have to keep checking. I have to keep checking.
Amra Pajalic (32:38)
Yes. Yeah. I I started getting a mustache where I like, What what are you doing? And then there's like a and then also it's so funny 'cause I was talking to a friend of mine and she, you know, looks at her husband and she's like, How could you let me go out of the house like that with that? And he's like, I didn't notice and and then ⁓ and they just kind of sprout where you're like, How did you how did you appear? I looked I looked in the mirror.
Jelena (32:55)
I know I know nobody it it's like a la Yes it does And nobody saw it. I know, I know.
Amra Pajalic (33:04)
I was okay and then suddenly I'm not. Why? Why are you doing that? Yeah. I I also have found good things from it though, in terms of some clarity in terms of my life. Have you had any any positives from it?
Jelena (33:08)
Five minutes later. Yeah. All I'm gonna say is I I do you know what? I being in my late fifties, you do for me, I found a confidence that and I don't I do what I wanna do.
I don't care. If you don't like it, you don't have to watch it, you don't have to listen to it, you don't have to read it, and that's okay. I have look, I think one of the big things, you know, I kept reading all these things about women being feeling that they become invisible in their 50s. You don't have to be. If you don't want to be invisible, you don't have to be. What's this, you know, I do I do I need the attention of men? God no.
Do I need to be the hottest bitch in the pl no! I couldn't care less, you know? So I'm just I this is this is that beautiful time where you just you get to be you. And if there's something that you want to discover, like riding, whether it be, I don't know, people, what exercise, whatever you find, you want to start, go do it. Try it. And you still have your voice and you should still just express yourself. Be you. What's this invisible? No, that you don't need to be invisible.
Amra Pajalic (33:53)
No, and like what I'm loving is I used to second guess, like there were always things I wanted to do and creative projects I wanted to try, but I would talk myself out and it's like no, you know, like I would be too afraid. Whereas now I'm just kind of leaping into things. And like you, I'm like, if people want to listen, they don't don't care. It's for me. You know, if any if anyone else wants to share in it, that is beautiful.
Jelena (34:38)
Some thing.
Amra Pajalic (34:43)
But not necessary at all.
Jelena (34:45)
That's it. Just just ⁓ just do it, just try it. Give it a go. Do you know 'cause you ain't getting any younger. You might as well.
Amra Pajalic (34:49)
That's the thing, you kind of stopped that second guessing because you're like, I would rather try it and go, Okay, that didn't work out than just be one of those people, one day I'm gonna The gonna. You know?
Jelena (35:04)
Exactly. Exactly. look, I've done that too. I did that so long with writing. People said, I remember twenty years ago you said you wanted to write a book until I finally got to the point I went, I have to sit down and I did it. I just thought, no, it took me still forever, but I did it. I did it. and the beautiful I think with the content creation that was maybe in the back of my mind this idea of comedy whatever. Now I'm like, no no and if anything I have to actually pull myself back because I would post I'm post I've got so many ideas that I thought, No, no, no, just
Just just pace yourself because otherwise you can run out. So I have to constantly think of things. I'm trying to keep them fresh and keep them interesting, you know. So that's a that's a struggle.
Amra Pajalic (35:41)
Yeah, but also remember that ⁓ the feed is constantly being refreshed. So what is d old is new.
Jelena (35:47)
I that's true. That is true. Yep. Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (35:48)
You know, re recycle and there will be new people and new audiences, especially because you've grown so much in terms of audience. Like I look at the numbers where you've got like five hundred people liking and r ⁓ you know, d so many reposts and I'm one of the people that's constantly reposting where I'm like, ⁓ I need her to to bring some brightness to everyone like it like she did me.
Jelena (35:57)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's really Yeah. ⁓ see, thank you. Yeah. And you know what? That's probably the most beautiful thing that I get I'm getting is the number one comment is thank you for just making me laugh today. Because a lot of people have gone, I haven't had the best time and they go, Just thanks for making me laugh. And that what then I pick the one other thing you they say to me, you know you're bringing some joy.
You know, there's no cruelty. I don't want it to be cruel. Okay, I do give it to Summer Risa's mum, but she does deserve it.
Amra Pajalic (36:32)
No, but like, you know, you you don't actually do anything with summer breeze. All you do is just the contrast speaks. ⁓ but I I loved the one where it was ⁓ summer breeze is take ⁓ having a day off for ⁓ a mental health day and Teta Yella is like, what? You stay home? No, me go mental go to school
Jelena (36:42)
Yeah. And I yeah, it's You're making You're mak I put mental health. Mental health I know I shouldn't, but I'm like who get my parents no one cared about no one they still don't care my mother still has a good couldn't give a damn about my mental health just just just get up there and do what you need to do it is it is what it is it's from you know where we come from it's it's a part of the world that doesn't they don't care they don't care about just get up and do it clean something that's all I say clean you know
Amra Pajalic (37:19)
No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and there is a lot, I mean look, you know, obviously there are mental health issues and we have our own we're we're we're battling. But you know, yeah, it's it's just a great contrast in terms of the the two different
Jelena (37:29)
of course we have to be thin. He is
Amra Pajalic (37:37)
sides of it. ⁓ and yeah, I find it very, very delightful. I actually think that there there could be an audience there where remember how we used to have Acropolis now and the, you know, the voices?
Jelena (37:39)
Mm-hmm. they were brilliant and they still are. You know, there it is you've got what I've noticed there's a lot of there's some great great stuff on the ⁓ say Instagram. TikTok, I'm not as big a fan of TikTok and I d I find that difficult to I don't understand how it works. I'm on it but it's not my favorite platform. But Instagram and Facebook, because I'm old and Facebook, I like Facebook and my people love Facebook. that you've got a lot of males. It's very male dominated. There's a couple of ⁓ women which are fantastic. so
I kind of saw also that there was a bit of a mark. I thought, wait a minute, there's no no kind of we've got mm ⁓ like a guy, I ⁓ is it Bulk and Dad that used he does it. but I thought, ⁓ I like this there's an area there's a spot here, you know, for me. ⁓ so I thought, okay, we'll give it a go.
Amra Pajalic (38:31)
Yeah. And I'm I'm also 'cause my feed is getting more ⁓ you know, 'cause I'm I'm descending more into the Balkan world and I'm loving people who are talking about our language and the way that, you know, ⁓ the sayings in our language. And when you yes, when you translate it it's like Yes, I mean yes, something about, you know, summer breeze and and Teta Yella might have to have an interaction.
Jelena (38:48)
⁓ God, I think that really resonates with people. Yeah. Some of the stuff is Yes. Poor child in the therapy. there's actually one well, okay, there's I've got a night's I've always have about three reels ready to go. I just like to have know that I've got stuff there. and ⁓ yeah, there's one coming up with with with Tetha. And Tetha has a chat with Summer Breeze's mum. So I hope so.
Amra Pajalic (39:01)
No, what Ooh, I can't wait. this is gonna be delicious. ⁓ no, no, no. I'm sure it will be. It is it is fun. But I think what you're demonstrating also with it that, you know, sometimes like we overthink this whole social media strategy, trying to be slick, trying to Yeah. Yeah.
Jelena (39:34)
Yes, a hundred percent. I'm with you. Yes. And I'm like you know what? I don't care. I just pull it out. I don't care. I just throw it out, throw it out. For works, it works. This is ⁓ I because I don't get that. I don't get all a lot of it how it works. Because that's just purely an age thing and an ignorance part ignorance on my part that I just don't understand how the algorithms I don't understand how that works. So but all I know is what does work is that some people will find it or they find it, they post it, they send it to friends and people like it. So, you know, it's kind of like something
Amra Pajalic (39:41)
Mm.
Jelena (40:04)
things more than others and that's okay but I want I like trying maybe the odd different thing just to you know ⁓ was this gonna work? I wonder if that'll work. And even if it doesn't that's okay. It there's still something that I had to say or I wanted to put up.
Amra Pajalic (40:16)
Yeah, and also like you you I don't know, it's if we constantly think about what's going to work and you never know. Like that's the part that's the creative thing. Like you never know what's what's gonna work, what's gonna connect, what's the moment and and I love that saying that I see a lot on social media where it's like, some people just gave up just before. You don't know.
Jelena (40:23)
you can't vote. No, you you can't. You don't know. Mm-hmm. You don't know so I'm and I've got nothing to l I really have nothing to lose. So I just keep going and if it keeps going that's fine. If it doesn't, that's you know, that's it'll mean it's it's reached its you know, it's reached its moment in time and that's okay and I'll just keep doing other things. It's you just you give it a go. That's what I mean by it just try. yeah.
Amra Pajalic (40:46)
Well that's the thing. Like you you're kind of th that's the joy of this midlife, those creative risks where they're not risks anymore. Before they might have been. It might it's that whole thing, I don't know, should I should whereas now, I don't know, it's just so much fun just to put yourself out there and whatever happens, happens.
Jelena (41:08)
Yeah, do you know what? We don't ca I don't care about being cool. I'm not cool. That's okay. I don't care if I'm a I'm a dad, that's my dad that's all right with me, I don't care. but I I'm there's no I'm not ashamed of it, I'm not embarrassed, but poo. I just give it a go and I you know.
Amra Pajalic (41:22)
Well, I actually have this thing where I'm like I don't I don't feel embarrassment as a concept anymore. I have taken that out of my brain because I am like things happen, we do things. Why judge myself? Why be hard on myself? If people are going to judge me for saying or doing something, that's on them. They can do that. I I don't need to. Mm.
Jelena (41:42)
Good for you. I like that. I really do. Spend my life worrying about what other people think, please. And that's very much a part of the culture. You know, shutcha, you'll derech. What are people gonna say? You know what? People don't care. If you fall on your face, they love it and they'll talk about it, but then they wait for the next person. So what what do I care? I don't care.
Amra Pajalic (42:03)
Yes Yes Yes
Jelena (42:17)
Taken a long time, you know, let's be honest. But it is what it you just just keep going. Don't be cruel. Don't be unkind. Just mind your business. Stay in your lane. just live your life and live it with some, I don't know, be be be respectful, be live it with grace, be be a class act, you know.
Amra Pajalic (42:35)
And I think just have some fun. Now I just wanted to make sure that I I got your handle out there for people to follow you. So on Instagram is there like there's Teta Yala, and y
Jelena (42:37)
Teta Jela and then I've also got ⁓ Jelena Curic dash slash writer. And now I'd started that long before bit that was I thought I'd had wanted that as ⁓ the Teta Jela used to be just my private one. And then Jelena Curic was the writing one, and then all of a sudden, my god, all this, and I just ended up taking all the private, pretty much my private stuff off and just using once it all built, I just kept Tetha Yellow as the the place for the reels.
Amra Pajalic (42:58)
Mm.
Jelena (43:10)
And now it's like, gosh, I wish I could amalgamate the two, but it is what it is. I've got them separate. I well, I wasn't anticipating that Tethiella was going to take off like it did, you know? I just had it there and it just so I always do the a collaboration with Tetha. ⁓ excuse me, Yelena, the writer. You know, I don't know. I wish I could collab like put them together, because I'm pretty much put the same stuff on Tethiella than I do on the writer.
Amra Pajalic (43:21)
Yeah.
Jelena (43:34)
But then you know, some things I do keep just for the say writing or books or whatever.
Amra Pajalic (43:34)
Yeah. That's thing I had, because I had my ⁓ romance writing identity, May Archer. And you wanna hear something interesting about May Archer? I spent a lot of time coming up with this pen name. So it was, you know, May West and then Archer from Sleepy Hollow, ⁓ the Archer surname.
Jelena (43:42)
⁓ okay.
Amra Pajalic (43:57)
And ⁓ you know, I I've now like my identities are out, but originally I had Mae Archer was the romance writer and Amra Pailich didn't exist. And so I did what you did. I had all those separate accounts and separate websites, and it is work. It is work. And so then when I reached a point in my life where I did not care anymore, and I just put everything
Jelena (44:08)
Yes. Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (44:23)
You know, everything is advertised. ⁓ ev I still have the romance novels under my romance name just because I'm a teacher and I did write young adult and I was like I don't want any young people thinking, sugar, that's my alarm. so I have to keep it separate just in case because I don't want young people sort of
Jelena (44:32)
⁓ okay. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (44:41)
reading it. But yeah, it is so much work. What would your advice be for anyone who's sort of navigating that?
Jelena (44:46)
My situation is a bit w because like I said, that was my own personal one that I used to have that was I had it closed off, you had to ask to to follow. But then I took the ⁓ vast majority of private photos off that, family stuff and I've just got the reels. should have your own little writing
You should always have a website and have a your own, say Instagram or threads, whatever, and that should be your writing. You as a writer, it helps you promote and put your stuff out. I've I've I've had to this is a a mix. because eventually I mean I will use all that the platform I have as a content creator to to let people know when book two comes out. It's there. You may not be that's okay, but let you know here it is, and that'll help me get that out.
it's a tough I don't know. ⁓ just I it's important for I's okay, from a if I take the the content creation away for a sec, just from a writer's point of view, you need to be visible, I think, and you need to be out there and you need and if you do have you're on say Instagram, I think a lot of young ones don't do Facebook, but you say you're on Instagram, you need to get ⁓ you need to have I personally do
Reals sometimes just talking about who you are, what you want, to get your name out because it's so hard. Especially for a debut and if say you're not with a one of the big guys, because they've got the money and they'll push and I'll get your books into bookstores and really put. But if you're a small person and you're really starting to ⁓ y you want people to know who you are, you've got to get some information out and find things that
What you know, some that that's ⁓ it sort of represents you. Do you know what I mean? For me it was that character that she came through and I used to use a lot of the Croatian symbols and I'd I'd work ways to kind of with the music as well to kind of make people okay, this is where what my book is and where it's going and so it gives you an idea. yeah, I it's important. And I still I think for a smaller if you're when you're trying to get established. Especially
Amra Pajalic (46:28)
And I think there is a lot of expectations these days if you are wanting to be in the traditional publishing world. They do expect authors still to do the promotion. And if you're in my world, which is the indie world, you are it. You are everything. You know, you're the marketing, you're the publishing, you're the, you know, organizing everything. but I think that there is a message here in terms of like
Jelena (46:39)
Yeah. Yeah. That's it. You're it.
Amra Pajalic (46:58)
necessarily trying so hard, just trying to be genuine and just sharing who you are.
Jelena (47:03)
I like that. Yeah, just be that's the word y yes. It's being genuine. Just being I think showing people who you are. I d you know. Be real. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (47:09)
Lovely. Yeah, I think be real. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Jelena Churic and Teta Yala, for ⁓ joining me and for ⁓ sharing so many of your experiences and lesson learned. so yes, and I'll I'll be watching and looking forward to more reels.
Jelena (47:16)
⁓ thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Thank you. They're coming. They're definitely coming.
Amra Pajalic (47:32)
Good.
Welcome back to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. My guest today is a woman who wears a few hats, literary novelist, crime writer, comedian, and by her own admission, the resident diva of her local Croatian community. Singing most weekends, whether or not anyone asked her to. You may already know her online as Teta Yela, the auntie who says the things the rest of us only think.
Her name is Jelena Churich, and her debut novel Sing to Me was published by Westwords in 2025. It follows Perro, a Croatian immigrant in 1980s with Sydney, a flawed and fascinating man who, when Tito dies and his mother health fails, returns home to confront family secrets, a father who won't speak to him, and the long shadows of a war-torn past.
It's a story about silence, forgiveness, and the song the soul forgets it knows. She came up through the Westwards Academy and Accelerator and was shortlisted for the Born Riders Award two Years Running. And today she's here to talk about everything she learned getting the book into the world. Welcome Yelena.
Jelena (01:10)
Thank you so much for having me.
Amra Pajalic (01:12)
I just have to say that I personally like I love Teta Yella and I can't wait until we we start talking about her. But
Jelena (01:19)
Thank you. I've got a real soft spot for her as well. I'd love her.
Amra Pajalic (01:22)
I know well when when she talks, I'm like, ⁓ she is my grandmother, she is my aunt, you know, she is every Balkan woman out there. And I I especially love her and the contrast to the woke mum and mother of summer breeze and ⁓ the parenting of summer bree breeze versus ⁓ Teta Yeller. Actually let's start.
Jelena (01:29)
Yes, yes, yes. God bless Yes. Yep. Teta Jela's old school. Yeah, old school. how did she Teta Jela's been a nickname of mine for the longest time. And when I gig, all the young ones, and actually everyone just gets, hi Tethyella. That's just I so I just got that nickname. And then when the book came out, ⁓ I just, I, I just, I don't know, a video I real idea came in and I just started with these simple ideas.
Amra Pajalic (01:49)
Let's let's start with this. How did this come up? Like how did you discover t
Jelena (02:13)
sudden Teta Jela, this character came and I just I did I think I did a few reels and the response was so positive and honestly it's been a just a very organic just moving through and I just kind of was watching and I'm thinking people are starting to repost and people are commenting and I went okay it wasn't something that I had planned I just thought okay I've always loved comedy and loved trying to be trying to be funny. And so it just progressed and now it's kinda really it's blowing up a bit. I'm going out at functions and people are coming up asking for photos with me and they're ringing their friends going, Guess who I'm talking to? And it's really beautiful. I have so far had nothing but really beautiful positive responses. It's been lovely.
Amra Pajalic (02:53)
I remember your your early reels where it was something like, you know, needing to market my books and you're wearing the Vegeta apron and Yeah.
Jelena (03:00)
Yeah. Yeah, and that was that was just it just happened. It flowed and I thought I'll try something. I'm with such a small publisher, ⁓ I thought I I've got to do what I c whatever I can. And then I just I threw caution to the wind, just like keep going, keep going. And all of a sudden I've just fallen in love with this content creating. I I really have, and it gives me so much joy.
Amra Pajalic (03:22)
Well, I have to say, you g you give so much joy.
Jelena (03:22)
And it is lighting. Thank you. It I I love it. And I'm not just within, say, the the Slavic Balkan community, it's actually crossing. And I've got Aussies that coming up and and particularly maybe because of Summer Breeze's mum. that was a pure fluke. I don't know where she came from. I just put that out and that that's now got a million views and I'm like, my God. It's it's crazy.
Amra Pajalic (03:41)
Ha ha I just love it. I love it. Cause I'm a teacher, you know, so I work in a school. Yeah. And so for me, I I work in a school where ⁓ 97% non-English speaking background. So but having said that, we are getting more and more of those parents who like ⁓
Jelena (03:50)
you're a teacher as well. yes. Yep, see? ⁓Uh-huh. Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (04:06)
Even someone was telling me the story where they have like CCTV footage of kids doing things and showing the parents they're like, No, no, no, no, that's not my child. It's it's AI doctored. ⁓ ⁓
Jelena (04:15)
I'm a office lady, so that's where I get it. I I I see the parents first hand. So they come to my and then I will speak 'cause I love my teachers, so I will talk to my teachers. So I just observe. It I just watch what's going on and parenting has definitely changed. Very much.
Amra Pajalic (04:25)
It really has 'cause also like, you know, the the ones who are the migrants and especially the newly arrived am migrants, they come with so much respect for education and so much respect for teaching and and you know, the opportunities and the doors that it's going to open. and then there's the other side where it's a bit like I don't know, and and like you know, as a parent and as a teacher it breaks my heart 'cause I'm like, you're not helping that kid by giv not giving them consequences.
Jelena (04:54)
Tonight. but can I tell you? Can I tell you that the the if you want to call it that woke, maybe ⁓ way too involved parent is actually crossing cultures now. It I used to think it was perhaps just ⁓ more of an Anglo-white kind of thing. It's not anymore. It is crossing into every continent, it's crossing every nationality, and I'm noticing that more and more.
And expectation where where we were from a generation our parents have said, you know, ⁓ what are you doing wrong? ⁓ you it's not what ⁓ it's your the onus was on you as the child you get in there and learn, and now everyone's going, what is the teacher doing for you? What is the te and that's crazy? It's like what well they the vast majority of teachers are
They're brilliant. They do the best that they can and they want they're there to teach your child but w the expectations from parents is it's it's on it's it's it's too much. I'm gonna be honest, I'm finding it too much and it's very draining on on teachers. Very, very draining.
Amra Pajalic (05:57)
Yeah, cause they're supposed to be partners.
Like, you know, as a parent, you are there to advocate and to be the soft place for your kids, but you are also there to parent and to set expectations and, you know, to work in partnership with the school to, you know, get your kid to ⁓ get the most out of it. Yeah, it is it is it is interesting 'cause like I I did the hard yards with my daughter in primary school and now she's one of those really wise
Jelena (05:59)
Absolutely.
Amra Pajalic (06:25)
teenagers who's very much her brain does not match her chronological age. And yeah. Maybe it's the only child thing, 'cause have you got an only child also?
Jelena (06:30)
I'll go one of those. Yeah, I got one of those. Well no, I've got a boy, but boys are a different breed of animal yet again. So I they they belong on different on a different planet. They are very different he's he's just very different. ⁓ but in saying that they were both e g during school, I I didn't care. I used to go, okay, what did you do? Don't tell me what you know, I think I only had to go up to the school once because of some sort of a a yeah, another boy had crossed the line and that was about it. I never I was not the parent that kept constantly coming up going, you know, my
Amra Pajalic (06:38)
Yeah.
Jelena (07:01)
child my child my child no but they say them you guys have got to learn to work that out when you go to work you've got to learn to work with a boss that you might not like you've got to learn to work people that you may not click with you know it is just what it is
Amra Pajalic (07:06)
Yes. And that's the thing I tell I tell my students. I'm like You may, you know, there may be a lot of things about school that you don't like and a lot of things that you think you're learning that aren't ⁓ maybe of benefit to you. But learning to wake up, to be there on time, to do things you don't like doing, to push through, to get along with people. ⁓ because you know, we are grown-ups, we work with a lot of people who are different to us that we don't like, and that's just life, darling. Life in the big city. Yeah. anyway, well, to go back to Tatiella, she is awesome and she
Jelena (07:27)
Exactly. Yeah. Amen. Amen.
Amra Pajalic (07:45)
She is the best fun. And also you actually got a second print for your book, I think, based on Teta Yella. You wanna talk that through?
Jelena (07:52)
Yes, yes, yes. as in sorry, the second print
Amra Pajalic (07:57)
Yeah, yeah. So do you think that Teta Jela and the social media and like, you know, you really got built an audience?
Jelena (08:01)
I did yes, yes, I dare say it yes. look for me the I have struggled for me I think getting books into bookstores have been has been a struggle for me. for somebody who is so you would come across think of me as this incredibly confident out there person, I struggle going into places like that and
And people, you know, the the shop people looking at me like, ⁓ you sad little thing and I get I take it really hard. So I that I found really difficult. so I thought, Okay, no, maybe my I'll just keep trying to push it through that online. that that online would have been was an easier option for me. ⁓ look, we can talk about like publishing gosh, I've learnt a lot. ⁓ Yes.
Amra Pajalic (08:40)
Well, let's start. What what are your what is it that ⁓ writing sing to me taught you that you don't think could have learnt from, you know, workshops and stuff? What were the big surprises?
Jelena (08:50)
⁓how how incredibly difficult it was. How incredibly difficult it was. I
Amra Pajalic (08:53)
Mm.
Jelena (08:56)
You know how they tell you childbirth is gonna hurt? But not until you're actually in it. You're not gonna you don't understand. But when you're in this, I I had no idea just how difficult and there is a structure to putting a book together. And even though I have been an avid reader from third grade and I am well into my late fifties now, I'm like, wow, sitting down and actually having to put that together. That
Amra Pajalic (09:01)
Mm mm.
Jelena (09:18)
until you're in it and you're doing it and for someone like me who had a mentor and guidance, that's no. You you just have to get in and do it.
Amra Pajalic (09:27)
Yeah, and also there comes a point like, you know, you write and you can revise and you can do all the work yourself, but you need a different perspective and also you need that perspective from people who are in the know, who are, you know Yeah.
Jelena (09:36)
Absolutely. God, yeah, yeah. That was where I was incredibly ignorant. I didn't I didn't get it. And then then the light every now and again the light bulb moments would come on. ⁓ now okay, now I understand what you're trying to tell me. But it was hard. It was really, really, really hard.
Amra Pajalic (09:52)
And did you have to submit many places or?
Jelena (09:55)
look, I did for I I I think I submitted all over the shop for ages, but I didn't I it wasn't until I came across say West got into the the Westwords Academy and then got into the accelerator program that I realized, okay, I really needed that guidance. I needed a mentor and I needed someone to go, no, no, this let's go through this with you because I I'm getting I'm I'm under the impression with the bigger publishers, they're not willing to do that. It's no, you got you better have your act together now.
And it's gotta be ready, whereas that's why I think it just wasn't gonna happen because I just didn't know how to do that. I needed I needed my handheld. Yeah. yes, yeah. And so I thought that that's so i I realised no, no, that was perfect for me. For someone like me, that was the the best thing that I could and I learnt a lot. I needed to have my hand held going through this and I was happy to
Amra Pajalic (10:27)
It's getting harder. Yeah, and that's the thing. And a lot of people are now encouraged to, you know, get mentors during the writing process and then also who will support them in the publishing process and in in all of that. Yeah, because there's a lot less opportunities now. There's a you know, a lot of amalgamation of publishing houses and so you're kind of in this really like, it's your one chance and that's it. You can't blow it.
Jelena (10:51)
Yeah, it was that was really lucky, very lucky. Yeah, and I'm you know, and I and I have friends who who've been trying to get ⁓ deals ⁓ particularly say with the bigger publishers and you're right, it is and it's getting harder. And I don't know if I'm wrong in saying this, but the scope of what they want is getting narrower. If you know, a story like mine, they just they weren't interested or they just didn't w what am I gonna do with that? You know, it isn't it you know, if you're writing and I'm not putting any no disrespect to any of these writers who write these John but if you know romance, romanticy, crime, but particularly crime set out in the outback, there are certain things that are okay, we know that'll sell, you know, they call it women's what a women's lit or that kind of yeah women's with that kind of that's but I I don't that's not my thing and I don't know that's not what I read nor what I write
Amra Pajalic (11:48)
Women's fiction, yeah.
Jelena (11:58)
You know, I love crime, but I'm kind of a bit tired of it being set in an outback. I can't or a coastal town. I would like something that's a bit more can we just broaden it a bit? That would be beautiful. so yeah, yeah, and it's hard. It is hard, hard, hard. And I think you've just gotta with writing, you know, with writers we're we're just artists and we're emotional and you can really beat yourself.
Amra Pajalic (11:58)
Mm.
Jelena (12:20)
⁓ into a pla a really k sort of scary place sometimes where you can get quite down on yourself and think, I'm not good enough, I'm never gonna get there but that's the nature of art and n even more so now it's just getting harder and harder.
Amra Pajalic (12:31)
Well, that's the thing I I kind of one of the things I keep saying to people is if you're not getting an acceptance, it's not a reflection on you. It is not a reflection on your writing. It it really is just so much the shrinking market. And I was traditionally published and I had lovely apprenticeship into the publishing industry and now I am indie
Jelena (12:40)
Yeah, it's not yeah.
Amra Pajalic (12:55)
I run my own small press and I do everything myself. and I am very happy at this point in my life doing that because I want complete creative control. yeah.
Jelena (13:06)
I see I love that. That to me is heavenly. And that's why I love with being with someone, a smaller Westwords books. I'm under they would I was never under any pressure to you gotta sell. You gotta sell them, you gotta make money. I was allowed to write the book I wanted to, and now I can with book two, which I I think will come out next year, it'll be I can promote it my way, I can do you know, it's my book, you know, and we work together. but there's that beautiful support and the lack I just there's no stress. No one is screaming at me, no one's going, I'm not worried that I'm just gonna be dropped. See you later, we're not interested anymore. You know, so Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (13:38)
Yeah. And that's the reality for a lot of publishing houses and it's happened to a lot of writers.
Jelena (13:43)
A lot of great writers. I'm hearing that. That's happening to a lot of ri and as writers who were have established and have writ sold books and they're they're just getting flicked.
Amra Pajalic (13:52)
Yeah, I remember at one point, I think when I my anthology Growing Up Muslim in Australia was published and I was going to a lot of bookish events and talking to a lot of people who had been in the industry for so much longer than I have and they were like getting ⁓ i advances that were smaller than ever, or struggling to get a publishing deal at all. And I was just like Wow. you know, 'cause you you have this thing of when you get published, you've made it, it's all good. ⁓ but
Jelena (14:20)
Yeah, no, it's not how it works. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (14:23)
Yeah, yeah. I was on maternity leave when I had my book published and I ⁓ resigned from my job 'cause I was like, Well, I made it. Not the best decision. No. No.
Jelena (14:31)
Mm. Yeah. I know. It's I look I learnt that back you know, back in the nineties when I was, you know, had a recording deal and you think, set, beautiful and when your second single doesn't have the success that they had hoped for. There's no album. There's just a letter in the mails telling you, see you, thanks very much, but we're not gonna keep you on anymore. So I learnt the hard way. So now I don't look at it, I just look at my aim was I wanted a book. I've got a second one that I really very different, but it's okay. Am I waiting on money? please. Please I'm looking at it's okay, baby. I a I got I got a little part on gig. I can survive with that, but no, it it's more the for me and it is, it's
Amra Pajalic (14:59)
Mm.
Jelena (15:12)
the book, it's the art of the book itself. It's just having this story that I'm proud of and put it out there and, you know.
Amra Pajalic (15:18)
That's the thing. I wanted to talk about ⁓ the ethics of telling a Han story because and correct me if if this ⁓ like tell me if this is all correct. But Piero Sfada is a former fascist soldier and the persecution of Romani people sits inside the story. so how did you decide how much historical weight the novel could carry and how did you sort of mediate those those hard because that's something I've grappled with too.
Jelena (15:28)
Mm-hmm. It's hard. It was really, really hard. I I had that fine line of th there had to be there had to be some truth in it. There had to be it it's a part of history and and it it was a part of the storyline. ⁓ the character had to go on he's going on a journey and and the fact that he doesn't speak to his father and I don't want to give away anything but what happened to his father and the reasons why his father does what he does. There has to be some truth in that. And there has to be it has to be ⁓ I think
There has to be that heaviness there to make you understand. ⁓ okay. Now I understand why he made those choices. What was going around around, what was ⁓ happening in the in around him, his life. Why did he do these things? and that's a ri it was a yeah, it's a tough one. And I had to be careful because I didn't want to upset my own community, which I am, you know, because I'm a I'm a vet look, I'm a Croatian girl. That you never called me Yugoslav growing up. I was Croatia, that was who I am.
And it's it's still very much part of who I am. So there was that fine line, but in it, I'm telling a story. It's still a it it's it's fiction. They aren't it's not based on anybody. I've had people go, it's it's based on so-and-so. Someone I said, relax. It's not actually based on anybody, it's just this this story, and I chose that period of time because I am old. I'm from that, I'm that first generation from from you know, a first-generation Croatian here who heard all these stories growing up.
Amra Pajalic (16:43)
Yes.
Jelena (17:03)
And so that was a story that I wanted to tell. Plus I'm a musician and I wanted music running through it. I don't know where these c this and then this this and I was always fascinated by the whole Roman gypsy culture. Because when I went I went there in 79, I was fascinated by it, terrified, because everyone made sure made sure to say you to be scared of them. And I just went, you know, I was eleven and I thought these people are fascinated.
To me. But I was terrified. I didn't want to go anywhere near them because everyone was putting the fear of God into you. But I always stayed with me and I just thought I want to put, I just wanted to tell a good story. I wanted to tell a good story and I wanted to take this when you're reading it. I wanted you to go, okay, now I get why these things were happening. And they were perhaps valid. You just didn't pull them out of the, you know, out of the air. These, these, there is a part of this history that a lot of people don't get, you know.
Amra Pajalic (17:30)
Mm.
Jelena (17:50)
But yeah, that's but it was hard. I had to really think and know what hopefully know what I was talking about.
Amra Pajalic (17:54)
Mm-mm. And like that's the thing. Now as writers, you know, after the book is published, we deconstruct the deep ideas. But at the end of the day we're artists, it just comes to us. You know, we just get these images and and then we're like, ⁓ that's that's interesting. I'm just going to go with that. ⁓ and then you're like, Well, I don't know where that came from, but I'm I'm digging it. That's that's good.
Jelena (18:06)
It is, yeah it's amazing how you're you're so right. I don't know where some of these stories will come. I'll go, I don't know. Just ooh, hello, I'm having a coffee 'cause I would go out and always have a coffee in the morning, take a little notebook and I'd go, Okay. And then I'd write a sentence and come home and then I'd work from there. These just or I'd be at a gig and I don't know, a and there'd be a song I was singing or was listening to one of the boys sing a song and I'd go,
Amra Pajalic (18:32)
Mm mm.
Jelena (18:38)
that the the sentiment behind that song would would hit me and then I'd write. Or I'd hear stories from the boys we'd be talking about older musicians and things that they would talk about. And so I'd just put these little make notes. Yeah, that just comes. And I was lucky enough to be a part of, you know, a world where I could listen. And also then my mother would sing, she's constantly singing to me all these songs that she made up as a as a young woman. So I would just write. I'd go, stop, and I'd write everything down. So
Amra Pajalic (19:04)
I love it. It's so good. It's it's ⁓ yeah. So I just wanted to sort of touch on that, you know, in terms of the identity and the culture and creativity. So had you you touched on it a little bit in terms of ⁓ you know, the way that it shaped you and hearing all these stories and and ⁓ being part of the Croatian culture. But I also just wanted to know because I feel like a lot of us, or I'm just gonna talk about myself and then I'll let you see. I felt for a long time like my culture was almost like negative and it took me a long time. Like I tried writing in a few different ways and tried writing like Anglo characters and it was my husband who was like, there's so many people writing that you need to write what is unique to you.
So it's Is that something that you sort of struggled with also in terms of writing something that you think is going to be published or something that you think that is going to work versus, you know, what what the voice is and what what the story that that that you want to tell?
Jelena (19:56)
I'm gonna be honest, I I no, I that never can s I just write what I I can only write what I can write. My ⁓ what I know, what my story is, and I knew, I think I always felt like I wasn't I think I part of part of you were ⁓ I'm sure that a big publisher will see me and think this is a maze and then I realised mm that's not gonna this is probably a story that's not that easily accessible for them or they know what to do with so I thought I'm not gonna change to suit another market or a the market because that's not why I wrote the book. In the end it was just the story that I had to tell. So I never felt and I I you can tell I think you can tell when a writer's you know almost faking it. What am I gonna start writing, you know, about characters that I don't get, I don't understand. I you know, I just wouldn't I couldn't do it.
Amra Pajalic (20:43)
Yeah, I think with me 'cause I started out in genre and I was writing romance initially. So it was very much thinking from that commercial lens and publishability. And then it took me a while to kind of
Jelena (20:51)
⁓ yeah.
Amra Pajalic (20:54)
And then I felt like, you know, I had like romance books published and that didn't anything traditionally and nothing happened with them. And then I was really bitter about the time I sort of spent on that. but ultimately I'm now very firm on what I'm wanting to do and I'm not letting things shake me anymore. You know?
Jelena (21:12)
I like that. See, yeah, just write I don't look, I'm probably not as I I'm gonna be honest, I'm not a prolific writer. I don't write every day. ⁓ I write in spurts. So at the moment I'm waiting, book two is sitting there and I'm just gonna wait till I have to go back and polish it, fix it all up. and but I'm been I don't know what to write. But my writing now is just my little skits. I think that's what I'm doing. That's where I'm concentrating on just thinking constantly, writing these little tiny little things that but ⁓ yeah, for me, no, book two
Amra Pajalic (21:22)
Mm mm.
Jelena (21:41)
Is still me, as in there's nothing there, and all these characters are I'm I feel positive about them, as in I don't feel like anyone there is fake or I've had to I've written for a a market. ⁓ I don't care anymore. I write a story and if you like the story, beautiful, read it. If you don't, that's okay. There's books for everybody. Yeah, there's books for everybody.
Amra Pajalic (21:53)
Mm. That is the beauty. That's the beauty of midlife. Like, I feel like it took me a long time to get to this point, and that's that's exactly how I feel. And there is such joy and peace at being like
Jelena (22:09)
Yes. Just write your you write your thing. You you you know what you're doing. You know who you are. I love it.
Amra Pajalic (22:14)
And have you had 'cause you you've had 'cause you know, you said Tietyelli's now connecting with people across and outside of of the community. what about ⁓ your book? You know, has there have there been any surprising
Jelena (22:25)
Yeah, it's yeah, I think I've had I mean obviously a lot of the Croatian community, but say Aussie friends that I know that have have ⁓ read the book and some of them have gone, ⁓ I was they they said, Well, number one, I learned something and they cried, which is that's my aim because it's quite a I think there's an emo it's quite an emotional element and I'm hope by the end that you could go, okay, you know, you feel that. yeah, so it has been quite positive.
You know what? I'm gonna be honest, I don't ever ask anyone what they think. Never. I okay, I asked my husband, I asked my daughter, I asked my sister. Everyone else, I didn't ask them because I try to pretend I'm really tough it, but I'm not but if someone comes back to me and tells me it was crap, I'll I'll be shattered. So I don't. If they want to give me their opinion on the book, then beautiful. I know it's genuine. If they don't, then I just go, better that I don't know.
Amra Pajalic (23:12)
Yeah, if you if you I I don't care. If you don't like it, that's fine. Don't read it. But don't feel the need to tell me. I don't need to know.
Jelena (23:16)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly don't rip me to shreds about I mean I've done the best y you as a writer you do the best that you can. if yeah, but
Amra Pajalic (23:26)
And there are so many books out there. This one doesn't work for you. You find what works for you. You know, it's it's it's just you know, and also like at the end of the day, I feel like we write for ourselves. We write what we want to read it ⁓ and what interests us. And then it's just a matter of other people connecting with that.
Jelena (23:29)
⁓ no. Yeah. I'm with you on that one. I'll you know, it you yeah, exactly. Your your readers will find you and beautiful, let's go on this journey together. If and if they're not few that's okay too.
Amra Pajalic (23:50)
Mm-mm. So, in a sense I wanted to like I love that you're doing so many different things because you know you you you were you still are a singer, but you did have the contract and you've gone through that. So maybe in a sense your lessons with writing because of that hard earned journey through ⁓ the pop scene. I saw a photo of you on your website when you were at the height of your pop. I know.
Jelena (24:18)
I used to be a spunky little thing. Now I just look like a librarian or an accountant. I always joke with people who go, you know, I go, I know I look like someone that does your taxes, but I'm very good at what I do. I'm a really good singer. So I think I I I just it's I do it really well. and they just look at me and I go, just believe me, I'm actually very good. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (24:29)
Yeah. So you still sing, ⁓ like
Jelena (24:40)
Pretty much nearly every weekend. I still I still do the gigs. Mainly ⁓ I do mainly sing with a band called Stornasart, which is a Croatian band, but I do fill in gigs ⁓ in the Aussie scene. I still do that. I don't work as much as I used to. I find it it it's very draining. It's hard. I don't physically I'm finding it tough. ⁓ you know, I've still got a day I do I have a part time day gig. ⁓ I've got the writing, ⁓ and you know I've got a my family it's it's a lot. So I don't wanna work. constantly. ⁓ and that's yeah, that's it's enough for me. I love it. I still go out and just that's my social life because I'm a very antisocial person. I don't go out. So for me that is my social life.
Amra Pajalic (25:08)
And so like do you think that, ⁓ you know, like in a sense e every industry it's like you're supposed to have one clear lane, but you're sort of going between and now you've got Teta Yela and the comedy and that. are you finding that people are very receptive and it's all just sort of working? You're yeah.
Jelena (25:34)
Absolutely. Yeah. The ones that like Teta Jela and the comedy f they like that. The ones that maybe those those that that will read the book are interested in reading the book. ⁓ the music is that I'm at gigs. People will turn up to a gig. I I that's it's yeah, I don't know, I've I can do it all. It doesn't nobody's said no one has said to me you you can't. What are they gonna say to me? No one owns me, no one's, you know, paying me just to do one thing and say you can't do all the No.
Amra Pajalic (25:53)
Mm. Mm.
Jelena (25:58)
This is my I'll I'll do whatever I'll do whatever I want. And you know, I love it.
Amra Pajalic (26:02)
That's the thing. Like, what are your well exactly? I feel like there's so much you're supposed to like, I you know, even like in this podcast ⁓ that I'm doing, my thing is I just want to interview people I find interesting and learn from people. Yeah, and share lessons. And then you know, I get these like emails about podcasting and stuff, and they're like, niche down, niche down, and I'm like
Jelena (26:18)
I think that's wonderful, you know? Why?
Amra Pajalic (26:29)
I don't know. I don't I don't wanna niche down. I just I just wanna talk.
Jelena (26:34)
I I just would I love that if you just why why do you I don't get this. If look, when I get I I'm I love podcasts. I'm a podcast true crime, my God, I'm obsessed. So but I know what I know what I'm getting when I get, you know, and I will I'll find whether it's, you know, ⁓ you know, traditional ⁓ your murder, you know, they're sort of s all s swindlers. I love a swind good swindler story. there's there's different genres, but no, this I know if I'm gonna listen to a writer, I don't expect every single writer that someone has on the podcast to be all romance or all you know, what's absolutely you know.
Amra Pajalic (27:05)
No. We're we're multifaceted. We're we're we're all different. Mm. So do you wanna tell us a little bit about this second book and is it different to your first one?
Jelena (27:15)
very different. This one is crime, but it's crime set in the late eighties. And it's two mates, ⁓ just two young ⁓ petty crims who are somehow get themselves involved in a crime, in a murder, and with some big wigs that and they're like, How did we get here? And it's got it's quite it's fun. It's very kitsch, it's fun. it's based on a couple of ⁓ real life situations, things that ha that ⁓ that ⁓ or people that I knew in the past so I've used that and it is just a lot more it's fun. It's just so I yeah I like I really actually really very different. Very different from the first book.
Amra Pajalic (27:52)
Yeah, I'm I'm like w I'm doing a crime series at the moment. I love crime fiction and and yeah. It's yeah, my happy place now. I I I saw something about like in our twenties and thirties we you know, we're looking for a partner, we're into romance and then we go through menopause and we want to kill our husbands and so we're into crime.
Jelena (27:55)
Yeah, yeah, I know, I know. So yeah. It's beautiful. It's so true.
Amra Pajalic (28:13)
Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause you know, I've been married twenty nine years. There's ⁓ a lot.
Jelena (28:17)
Yeah, I've been with yeah, I've been with mine. I think we're coming up to forty forty years this year together. I'm chasing I have to go I don't remember. Yes, it was about forty yeah, so we've been together a really long time.
Amra Pajalic (28:23)
Yeah, and there's a different like, you know, you go through different relationship decades in a sense. Mm. And this one is nice because nothing approved. Nothing and you just are and you just kinda keep growing as people and growing side by side. But it's just you know, there's still romance there, but it's just changed shape.
Jelena (28:34)
Gorgeous. Yes. Yeah, I agree. It it's a different it's a I love love is really interesting, this whole the way love sh changes that shape of love within a ⁓ a relationship and the longer you go. 'Cause we're you know, we're I'm be we're quite currently sandwiched 'cause we've got ⁓ both mu mothers that we kinda have to keep an eye on, take care of.
And then we have my my kids are in their twenties but I still have to keep an eye on I feel like th my daughter's forever saying no you don't but I go, Well, you're still my child. I mean, I know you've moved out and you're doing your thing, but I will always are you okay? You know, how how are you paying your mortgage and all that's those sort of things. So I'm still feel like
I'm kind of balancing and I'm trying to take care of him as well, take care of myself. But I always win I'm I don't care what anyone says. We carry the emotional load and we put ourselves last all the time and everyone's emotional crap gets thrown on us. It is the way it is. And it's just making sure that you somehow stay buoyed up because my God, it's hard. It can be can get really, really hard.
Amra Pajalic (29:47)
It can. We were talking before we started recording about menopause. ⁓ what has been your journey? It's a journey, I would say. It's a it's a pit stop we don't want.
Jelena (29:55)
⁓look, I'm yeah, I haven't I'm finding I I have found it ⁓ I've har found it hard. ⁓ but HRT has helped a lot. my ha I think the hardest part is the brain fog and and I made a joke one the other day I did a reel. I'm actually on stage.
I'm so tired and I'm looking out and I can't remember that I almost forget I've started songs in the wrong key. I can't remember where I've s whether I've sung a second verse or not. I don't know whether I'm supposed to repeat a chorus. ⁓ I'm get you know, I will sometimes look at the boys in the band and I go, but I'm not I haven't done anything. I'm just looking at them and I'm grumpy and I'm like, or I'm looking at the crowd and I'm grumpy, but it's not them, it's just that I'm I've either overwhelmed or just I'm tired and I'm like, I
You know? So that it has been it that's been the emo and just the emotional roller coaster. It is. my god. Up down, up down. I I was convinced for a quite a while that P everyone was gonna leave me. It was I this I couldn't work out why everyone's gonna leave me. Everyone's gonna leave me. Nobody likes me, everyone's gonna leave me. And I couldn't get out of that at all. Just
Amra Pajalic (30:54)
Yeah. Mm, it really does it sends you to some dark places and you it feels like a switch where it's almost like I've never been this negative and I've never had such dark thoughts and yet and it's also like you can't talk yourself like, you know, you do practice the gratitude, but I have this and I have that and I shouldn't be but y you can't talk yourself out of it.
Jelena (31:02)
Yes, yeah. It's the vulnerability and I and and being feeling so vulnerable and you you can't you and you can't find that strength to stop to stop and be more objective and go, Well why are you this nothing's what what makes you think that everyone's gonna leave you or what makes you think that everything's gonna fall? It's just crazy. I I don't know. And yeah.
Amra Pajalic (31:40)
Is it the anxiety? Like do you feel that constant generalized anxiety?
Jelena (31:42)
Mum on the queen of anxiety. I'm constantly anxious about stuff. I'm always got that's just ⁓ that that's
Amra Pajalic (31:47)
Mm. Cause for me, like I never I never was an anxious person and then suddenly there was this constant feeling of something's wrong. Something's not right. And it was just like, my gosh. But like you, I'm on hormone replacement therapy. so much.
Jelena (31:55)
Yeah, that has helped. It's helped with the the hot flushes. It's helped me kinda it has been good. ⁓ we'll s yeah, but it's not been easy. And you know, you watch yourself age and you kinda have to accept it and you go, Yeah. No, I mostly I'm pretty good, I don't care. But every now and again you go, Lord have mercy, who's that lady? But it's me.
Amra Pajalic (32:07)
Yeah, ⁓ I'm like at the point of 'cause I've got like a few like most Balkans, you know, the the, you know, ⁓ Shechet, Clark, you know, the diabetes, the blood pressure, so I
Jelena (32:33)
You gotta keep an eye For me it's just the beard. I'm like, Ayoy, come on, you know. I have to keep checking. I have to keep checking.
Amra Pajalic (32:38)
Yes. Yeah. I I started getting a mustache where I like, What what are you doing? And then there's like a and then also it's so funny 'cause I was talking to a friend of mine and she, you know, looks at her husband and she's like, How could you let me go out of the house like that with that? And he's like, I didn't notice and and then ⁓ and they just kind of sprout where you're like, How did you how did you appear? I looked I looked in the mirror.
Jelena (32:55)
I know I know nobody it it's like a la Yes it does And nobody saw it. I know, I know.
Amra Pajalic (33:04)
I was okay and then suddenly I'm not. Why? Why are you doing that? Yeah. I I also have found good things from it though, in terms of some clarity in terms of my life. Have you had any any positives from it?
Jelena (33:08)
Five minutes later. Yeah. All I'm gonna say is I I do you know what? I being in my late fifties, you do for me, I found a confidence that and I don't I do what I wanna do.
I don't care. If you don't like it, you don't have to watch it, you don't have to listen to it, you don't have to read it, and that's okay. I have look, I think one of the big things, you know, I kept reading all these things about women being feeling that they become invisible in their 50s. You don't have to be. If you don't want to be invisible, you don't have to be. What's this, you know, I do I do I need the attention of men? God no.
Do I need to be the hottest bitch in the pl no! I couldn't care less, you know? So I'm just I this is this is that beautiful time where you just you get to be you. And if there's something that you want to discover, like riding, whether it be, I don't know, people, what exercise, whatever you find, you want to start, go do it. Try it. And you still have your voice and you should still just express yourself. Be you. What's this invisible? No, that you don't need to be invisible.
Amra Pajalic (33:53)
No, and like what I'm loving is I used to second guess, like there were always things I wanted to do and creative projects I wanted to try, but I would talk myself out and it's like no, you know, like I would be too afraid. Whereas now I'm just kind of leaping into things. And like you, I'm like, if people want to listen, they don't don't care. It's for me. You know, if any if anyone else wants to share in it, that is beautiful.
Jelena (34:38)
Some thing.
Amra Pajalic (34:43)
But not necessary at all.
Jelena (34:45)
That's it. Just just ⁓ just do it, just try it. Give it a go. Do you know 'cause you ain't getting any younger. You might as well.
Amra Pajalic (34:49)
That's the thing, you kind of stopped that second guessing because you're like, I would rather try it and go, Okay, that didn't work out than just be one of those people, one day I'm gonna The gonna. You know?
Jelena (35:04)
Exactly. Exactly. look, I've done that too. I did that so long with writing. People said, I remember twenty years ago you said you wanted to write a book until I finally got to the point I went, I have to sit down and I did it. I just thought, no, it took me still forever, but I did it. I did it. and the beautiful I think with the content creation that was maybe in the back of my mind this idea of comedy whatever. Now I'm like, no no and if anything I have to actually pull myself back because I would post I'm post I've got so many ideas that I thought, No, no, no, just
Just just pace yourself because otherwise you can run out. So I have to constantly think of things. I'm trying to keep them fresh and keep them interesting, you know. So that's a that's a struggle.
Amra Pajalic (35:41)
Yeah, but also remember that ⁓ the feed is constantly being refreshed. So what is d old is new.
Jelena (35:47)
I that's true. That is true. Yep. Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (35:48)
You know, re recycle and there will be new people and new audiences, especially because you've grown so much in terms of audience. Like I look at the numbers where you've got like five hundred people liking and r ⁓ you know, d so many reposts and I'm one of the people that's constantly reposting where I'm like, ⁓ I need her to to bring some brightness to everyone like it like she did me.
Jelena (35:57)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's really Yeah. ⁓ see, thank you. Yeah. And you know what? That's probably the most beautiful thing that I get I'm getting is the number one comment is thank you for just making me laugh today. Because a lot of people have gone, I haven't had the best time and they go, Just thanks for making me laugh. And that what then I pick the one other thing you they say to me, you know you're bringing some joy.
You know, there's no cruelty. I don't want it to be cruel. Okay, I do give it to Summer Risa's mum, but she does deserve it.
Amra Pajalic (36:32)
No, but like, you know, you you don't actually do anything with summer breeze. All you do is just the contrast speaks. ⁓ but I I loved the one where it was ⁓ summer breeze is take ⁓ having a day off for ⁓ a mental health day and Teta Yella is like, what? You stay home? No, me go mental go to school
Jelena (36:42)
Yeah. And I yeah, it's You're making You're mak I put mental health. Mental health I know I shouldn't, but I'm like who get my parents no one cared about no one they still don't care my mother still has a good couldn't give a damn about my mental health just just just get up there and do what you need to do it is it is what it is it's from you know where we come from it's it's a part of the world that doesn't they don't care they don't care about just get up and do it clean something that's all I say clean you know
Amra Pajalic (37:19)
No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and there is a lot, I mean look, you know, obviously there are mental health issues and we have our own we're we're we're battling. But you know, yeah, it's it's just a great contrast in terms of the the two different
Jelena (37:29)
of course we have to be thin. He is
Amra Pajalic (37:37)
sides of it. ⁓ and yeah, I find it very, very delightful. I actually think that there there could be an audience there where remember how we used to have Acropolis now and the, you know, the voices?
Jelena (37:39)
Mm-hmm. they were brilliant and they still are. You know, there it is you've got what I've noticed there's a lot of there's some great great stuff on the ⁓ say Instagram. TikTok, I'm not as big a fan of TikTok and I d I find that difficult to I don't understand how it works. I'm on it but it's not my favorite platform. But Instagram and Facebook, because I'm old and Facebook, I like Facebook and my people love Facebook. that you've got a lot of males. It's very male dominated. There's a couple of ⁓ women which are fantastic. so
I kind of saw also that there was a bit of a mark. I thought, wait a minute, there's no no kind of we've got mm ⁓ like a guy, I ⁓ is it Bulk and Dad that used he does it. but I thought, ⁓ I like this there's an area there's a spot here, you know, for me. ⁓ so I thought, okay, we'll give it a go.
Amra Pajalic (38:31)
Yeah. And I'm I'm also 'cause my feed is getting more ⁓ you know, 'cause I'm I'm descending more into the Balkan world and I'm loving people who are talking about our language and the way that, you know, ⁓ the sayings in our language. And when you yes, when you translate it it's like Yes, I mean yes, something about, you know, summer breeze and and Teta Yella might have to have an interaction.
Jelena (38:48)
⁓ God, I think that really resonates with people. Yeah. Some of the stuff is Yes. Poor child in the therapy. there's actually one well, okay, there's I've got a night's I've always have about three reels ready to go. I just like to have know that I've got stuff there. and ⁓ yeah, there's one coming up with with with Tetha. And Tetha has a chat with Summer Breeze's mum. So I hope so.
Amra Pajalic (39:01)
No, what Ooh, I can't wait. this is gonna be delicious. ⁓ no, no, no. I'm sure it will be. It is it is fun. But I think what you're demonstrating also with it that, you know, sometimes like we overthink this whole social media strategy, trying to be slick, trying to Yeah. Yeah.
Jelena (39:34)
Yes, a hundred percent. I'm with you. Yes. And I'm like you know what? I don't care. I just pull it out. I don't care. I just throw it out, throw it out. For works, it works. This is ⁓ I because I don't get that. I don't get all a lot of it how it works. Because that's just purely an age thing and an ignorance part ignorance on my part that I just don't understand how the algorithms I don't understand how that works. So but all I know is what does work is that some people will find it or they find it, they post it, they send it to friends and people like it. So, you know, it's kind of like something
Amra Pajalic (39:41)
Mm.
Jelena (40:04)
things more than others and that's okay but I want I like trying maybe the odd different thing just to you know ⁓ was this gonna work? I wonder if that'll work. And even if it doesn't that's okay. It there's still something that I had to say or I wanted to put up.
Amra Pajalic (40:16)
Yeah, and also like you you I don't know, it's if we constantly think about what's going to work and you never know. Like that's the part that's the creative thing. Like you never know what's what's gonna work, what's gonna connect, what's the moment and and I love that saying that I see a lot on social media where it's like, some people just gave up just before. You don't know.
Jelena (40:23)
you can't vote. No, you you can't. You don't know. Mm-hmm. You don't know so I'm and I've got nothing to l I really have nothing to lose. So I just keep going and if it keeps going that's fine. If it doesn't, that's you know, that's it'll mean it's it's reached its you know, it's reached its moment in time and that's okay and I'll just keep doing other things. It's you just you give it a go. That's what I mean by it just try. yeah.
Amra Pajalic (40:46)
Well that's the thing. Like you you're kind of th that's the joy of this midlife, those creative risks where they're not risks anymore. Before they might have been. It might it's that whole thing, I don't know, should I should whereas now, I don't know, it's just so much fun just to put yourself out there and whatever happens, happens.
Jelena (41:08)
Yeah, do you know what? We don't ca I don't care about being cool. I'm not cool. That's okay. I don't care if I'm a I'm a dad, that's my dad that's all right with me, I don't care. but I I'm there's no I'm not ashamed of it, I'm not embarrassed, but poo. I just give it a go and I you know.
Amra Pajalic (41:22)
Well, I actually have this thing where I'm like I don't I don't feel embarrassment as a concept anymore. I have taken that out of my brain because I am like things happen, we do things. Why judge myself? Why be hard on myself? If people are going to judge me for saying or doing something, that's on them. They can do that. I I don't need to. Mm.
Jelena (41:42)
Good for you. I like that. I really do. Spend my life worrying about what other people think, please. And that's very much a part of the culture. You know, shutcha, you'll derech. What are people gonna say? You know what? People don't care. If you fall on your face, they love it and they'll talk about it, but then they wait for the next person. So what what do I care? I don't care.
Amra Pajalic (42:03)
Yes Yes Yes
Jelena (42:17)
Taken a long time, you know, let's be honest. But it is what it you just just keep going. Don't be cruel. Don't be unkind. Just mind your business. Stay in your lane. just live your life and live it with some, I don't know, be be be respectful, be live it with grace, be be a class act, you know.
Amra Pajalic (42:35)
And I think just have some fun. Now I just wanted to make sure that I I got your handle out there for people to follow you. So on Instagram is there like there's Teta Yala, and y
Jelena (42:37)
Teta Jela and then I've also got ⁓ Jelena Curic dash slash writer. And now I'd started that long before bit that was I thought I'd had wanted that as ⁓ the Teta Jela used to be just my private one. And then Jelena Curic was the writing one, and then all of a sudden, my god, all this, and I just ended up taking all the private, pretty much my private stuff off and just using once it all built, I just kept Tetha Yellow as the the place for the reels.
Amra Pajalic (42:58)
Mm.
Jelena (43:10)
And now it's like, gosh, I wish I could amalgamate the two, but it is what it is. I've got them separate. I well, I wasn't anticipating that Tethiella was going to take off like it did, you know? I just had it there and it just so I always do the a collaboration with Tetha. ⁓ excuse me, Yelena, the writer. You know, I don't know. I wish I could collab like put them together, because I'm pretty much put the same stuff on Tethiella than I do on the writer.
Amra Pajalic (43:21)
Yeah.
Jelena (43:34)
But then you know, some things I do keep just for the say writing or books or whatever.
Amra Pajalic (43:34)
Yeah. That's thing I had, because I had my ⁓ romance writing identity, May Archer. And you wanna hear something interesting about May Archer? I spent a lot of time coming up with this pen name. So it was, you know, May West and then Archer from Sleepy Hollow, ⁓ the Archer surname.
Jelena (43:42)
⁓ okay.
Amra Pajalic (43:57)
And ⁓ you know, I I've now like my identities are out, but originally I had Mae Archer was the romance writer and Amra Pailich didn't exist. And so I did what you did. I had all those separate accounts and separate websites, and it is work. It is work. And so then when I reached a point in my life where I did not care anymore, and I just put everything
Jelena (44:08)
Yes. Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (44:23)
You know, everything is advertised. ⁓ ev I still have the romance novels under my romance name just because I'm a teacher and I did write young adult and I was like I don't want any young people thinking, sugar, that's my alarm. so I have to keep it separate just in case because I don't want young people sort of
Jelena (44:32)
⁓ okay. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (44:41)
reading it. But yeah, it is so much work. What would your advice be for anyone who's sort of navigating that?
Jelena (44:46)
My situation is a bit w because like I said, that was my own personal one that I used to have that was I had it closed off, you had to ask to to follow. But then I took the ⁓ vast majority of private photos off that, family stuff and I've just got the reels. should have your own little writing
You should always have a website and have a your own, say Instagram or threads, whatever, and that should be your writing. You as a writer, it helps you promote and put your stuff out. I've I've I've had to this is a a mix. because eventually I mean I will use all that the platform I have as a content creator to to let people know when book two comes out. It's there. You may not be that's okay, but let you know here it is, and that'll help me get that out.
it's a tough I don't know. ⁓ just I it's important for I's okay, from a if I take the the content creation away for a sec, just from a writer's point of view, you need to be visible, I think, and you need to be out there and you need and if you do have you're on say Instagram, I think a lot of young ones don't do Facebook, but you say you're on Instagram, you need to get ⁓ you need to have I personally do
Reals sometimes just talking about who you are, what you want, to get your name out because it's so hard. Especially for a debut and if say you're not with a one of the big guys, because they've got the money and they'll push and I'll get your books into bookstores and really put. But if you're a small person and you're really starting to ⁓ y you want people to know who you are, you've got to get some information out and find things that
What you know, some that that's ⁓ it sort of represents you. Do you know what I mean? For me it was that character that she came through and I used to use a lot of the Croatian symbols and I'd I'd work ways to kind of with the music as well to kind of make people okay, this is where what my book is and where it's going and so it gives you an idea. yeah, I it's important. And I still I think for a smaller if you're when you're trying to get established. Especially
Amra Pajalic (46:28)
And I think there is a lot of expectations these days if you are wanting to be in the traditional publishing world. They do expect authors still to do the promotion. And if you're in my world, which is the indie world, you are it. You are everything. You know, you're the marketing, you're the publishing, you're the, you know, organizing everything. but I think that there is a message here in terms of like
Jelena (46:39)
Yeah. Yeah. That's it. You're it.
Amra Pajalic (46:58)
necessarily trying so hard, just trying to be genuine and just sharing who you are.
Jelena (47:03)
I like that. Yeah, just be that's the word y yes. It's being genuine. Just being I think showing people who you are. I d you know. Be real. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (47:09)
Lovely. Yeah, I think be real. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Jelena Churic and Teta Yala, for ⁓ joining me and for ⁓ sharing so many of your experiences and lesson learned. so yes, and I'll I'll be watching and looking forward to more reels.
Jelena (47:16)
⁓ thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Thank you. They're coming. They're definitely coming.
Amra Pajalic (47:32)
Good.