The Refugee Writer's Journey: A Conversation with Fikret Pajalic
Podcast: Download (Duration:103 minutes)
Subscribe: Spotify | Apple | RSS | More
You can listen above or on your favourite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
Subscribe: Spotify | Apple | RSS | More
You can listen above or on your favourite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
Show notes
Writer Fikret Pajalic shares his journey from Bosnian refugee to published author, exploring how personal trauma became award-winning fiction through determination and craft. His short story collection "Complication" draws on refugee experiences, cross-cultural challenges, and unexpected connections.
• Began writing as therapy for PTSD after arriving in Australia as a refugee in 1994
• Developed a "revolving door submissions" strategy, persisting through multiple rejections
• Published in prestigious literary journals including Meanjin, Overland, and international magazines
• Named his collection "Complication" after watchmaking terminology, reflecting life's complexities
• Stories explore themes of refugee experiences, western suburbs life, racism, and cultural displacement
• Animals appear as recurring motifs throughout his stories
• Received grants from Creative Victoria (2014) and Australia Council (2015)
• Balance between staying true to artistic vision while being open to editorial guidance
• Writing process involves transforming both personal experiences and stories from his community
• Continues to navigate the residual mental health impacts of refugee experiences
Find the episode show notes, free episode handouts and how-to guides at amrapajalic.com/podcast.
• Began writing as therapy for PTSD after arriving in Australia as a refugee in 1994
• Developed a "revolving door submissions" strategy, persisting through multiple rejections
• Published in prestigious literary journals including Meanjin, Overland, and international magazines
• Named his collection "Complication" after watchmaking terminology, reflecting life's complexities
• Stories explore themes of refugee experiences, western suburbs life, racism, and cultural displacement
• Animals appear as recurring motifs throughout his stories
• Received grants from Creative Victoria (2014) and Australia Council (2015)
• Balance between staying true to artistic vision while being open to editorial guidance
• Writing process involves transforming both personal experiences and stories from his community
• Continues to navigate the residual mental health impacts of refugee experiences
Find the episode show notes, free episode handouts and how-to guides at amrapajalic.com/podcast.
Transcript of episode
Amra Pajalic: 0:01
Welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. I'm Amra Pajalic, writer, teacher and storyteller. Pull up a chair and let's dive into stories about writing life and lessons learned, sharing wisdom from my armchair to yours. You can find the episode show notes, your free episode handouts and my how-to guides at amrapayaliccom/podcast. And now it's time to dive in. Welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. This is the first episode of my podcast as I transition into an interview podcast, and my first interviewee is Fikret Pajalic. And my first interviewee is Fikret Pajalic.
Amra Pajalic: 0:45
He came to Melbourne as a refugee, learned English in his mid-20s and started writing. He won and placed in competitions, published in anthologies and literary magazines. His fiction has appeared in Nianjin Overland Westerly Etching. Sleepers Antipodes the Big Issue Hotel America Wisconsin Review sleepers antipodes the big issue hotel america wisconsin review minnesota review so many, so many places. Um, I think, over 50 publishing credits internationally for his short stories and um he was awarded in 2014 and created victoria grant in 2015, an australian council grant for the development of his literary manuscript. He is married to me, so we've actually been married for 28 years and he is the first author that I published under my press. Fish you can press. This is his short story collection. It's called complication and so welcome, fictitious, to my podcast. Thank you. Being my first my guinea pig, I'm calling him as I learn how to transition into an interview podcast. So first I just wondered could you tell me and the audience about how and why you started writing short stories?
Fikret Pajalic: 2:02
Okay, so I came toia as a refugee in 1994 and it took me about 10 years to realise that I suffer from ptsd. That was the time when people weren't talking about mental health issues, especially men. So, uh, it took me a while to realise I suffered from, yeah, post-traumatic stress. At the time I worked for the Department of Justice and I witnessed something which was really disturbing and part of the process was to get to go to EAP Employee Assistance Program and I spoke with a counselor, had a few sessions and then she suggested that I maybe I should put some of my previous experiences in writing so that, in a way, that's you're supposed to deal with it.
Fikret Pajalic: 3:03
But it was a bit of a catch-22 for me because or double-edged sword, I should say Every time I wrote something I got hurt again. So it triggered a little bit. Yeah, it was triggering, but I kept writing and she read some of the stuff and then she said maybe you should turn some of this stuff. And then she said maybe you should turn some of this stuff into stories or something like that.
Fikret Pajalic: 3:29
And then like a memoir type of thing, but I wasn't really in the mood to do memoir.
Fikret Pajalic: 3:37
So some of the stuff that I went through I turned into short stories. So that's kind of how it started. But it took a while for me to kind of get them really to a publishing standard. A lot of reading writing groups, that sort of stuff, so that's how I started.
Amra Pajalic: 3:56
So can you talk to me about getting your stories published and your approach to that?
Fikret Pajalic: 4:01
Well, I remember writing my first story. It was called Leaving. It was about 700 words words and you read it.
Amra Pajalic: 4:08
That's right.
Fikret Pajalic: 4:09
I was kind of his mentor and I asked for feedback and I thought it was the best thing ever, and then you pulled it apart.
Amra Pajalic: 4:18
We got a little bit of a tiff. As you do when you're an emerging writer, it's very hard.
Fikret Pajalic: 4:23
I was at that time still precious, yeah. So it took me a couple of days to get over it and start rewriting and taking your feedback into you know, putting it all together Then it turned out to be like almost 3,000 words story. The biggest takeaway from the first feedback is show, don't tell.
Fikret Pajalic: 4:50
In writing you have to show things rather than just say yeah. And shortly after I joined a writing group at Caroline Springs Library, which was a really good one, because there were a lot of aspiring authors or writers who gave fantastic feedback and that helped you further polish the story, started submitting and developed this strategy of revolving door submissions, where I always assumed that when I send a story to a magazine, that it's going to be knocked back and I already had planned where the story's going to go next. So if I'm submitting to Mianjin, they're going to knock me back. So I'm going to go to Overland they're going to knock me back. I'm going to go to a short story competition, maybe. So I just kept submitting, never expecting to be published, and when you get published, it's great.
Amra Pajalic: 6:01
And can you talk about, because with Overland and M and the Engine, one of them took 12 submissions and one 14 submissions yeah, I don't know which one, but it took a while.
Fikret Pajalic: 6:11
And basically you kind of keep knocking on the door and when they realise you're serious editors with both those magazines, they kind of they take you seriously. They give you more in-depth feedback, yes, or suggestion where to go with your story. It's not for us but try there and things like that. But yeah, when I got published in Overland that was like a big tick. Big tick, yeah, and then subsequently I think I got published another two or three times at least with them.
Fikret Pajalic: 6:48
But Meanjin was one that I really wanted to get in, because they're like the literary journal, and I got a few knockbacks and eventually got published. It was Complication Story, which is a title of the short story collection as well, and it was Zora Sanders who was editor at the time and she was really kind and patient and took me to the steps, a lot of feedback and I published the story even with her. Even further and, yeah, that was like when that got published in the engine. I was really happy.
Amra Pajalic: 7:30
And what was your view about working with editors when they gave you feedback?
Fikret Pajalic: 7:35
Well, it depends on the editor. Like with these more established magazines, they're really good, especially if they've been in the job for a few years. But I had some kind of weird experiences with new magazines where editors and others experienced that they tried to chop and change a lot, I guess. But it was only like once or twice where I decided my story was accepted but it just wasn't a good fit. There was the vision of the magazine and my story and I'm like, yeah, change this, change the other thing. And blah, blah, blah.
Fikret Pajalic: 8:20
I remember being published in one of the American journals I can't remember what it is. I remember being published in one of the American journals I can't remember what it is and I submitted like a four, four and a half thousand point story and they said that she slashed it to 2,000 words. My favorite author is Raymond Carver and he got advice from his long time editor. I can't remember his name I think his surname is Leish something he told Raymond Carver every time he wrote a sentence that's 15 words, make it 5. So that's what she did with that story and when I read it first, I'm like what did she do? I'm like wow. Then I read it again, then again I'm like, oh, my god, she made it really good, really to the point. It was like every sentence counted, so yeah, so yeah. 99% of the time I just go with the editor, because very occasionally they don't know what they're doing, but very occasionally so then you have to take a stand, you say no, I can't change that.
Amra Pajalic: 9:37
Yeah, and you also had these editors write you letters of support when you were applying for the grants?
Fikret Pajalic: 9:44
Yes, Zora Sands did, and I can't remember the name of the other person who wrote it. I don't know whether it was Jennifer Mills at Overland, I can't remember. But yeah, so because you establish the contact, especially if you get published a few times, because after I got published with my engine, I actually wrote my first memoir piece, which was also published in Melbourne.
Amra Pajalic: 10:10
Can you tell us what happened with that?
Fikret Pajalic: 10:12
piece, I don't know.
Amra Pajalic: 10:14
Well, wasn't there an editor who contacted you?
Fikret Pajalic: 10:21Ah yeah, there was a guy from one of the publishing houses who said I want your piece. Can you write a memoir?
Speaker 1: 10:24Yes, and how did your wife, who was working on a memoir for five years at the time feel.?
Fikret Pajalic: 10:28
But I offered him my short story collection but he was interested in memoir and I didn't have like 50,000 words and wasn't ready to yeah, yeah, just memoir's not my thing, but yeah, but memoir piece in me engine. It was like a what do they call it? Narrative fiction, narrative, non-fiction type of thing where you read it. When a person reads it, sometimes they're not aware that it's non-fiction.
Amra Pajalic: 11:03
Yeah, it reads like a fiction piece.
Fikret Pajalic: 11:05
It reads like a fiction piece, but it's actually that particular memoir piece which was nearly 6,000 words, I think, and for such a long piece to be published in the engine, that's like a lot of pages. Yeah, they dedicated it.
Amra Pajalic: 11:31
So yeah, I'm very proud of that one, because the only memoir piece I think I've written.
Fikret Pajalic: 11:33
Actually, there was something in Big Issue, which was 700, 800 words, that was published as well, but don't ask me what it was, I can't remember, but this is the thing about short story publication and short story opportunities.
Amra Pajalic: 11:47
It's building those networks. And also, what I always come back to is when you put things out there, you don't know what's going to come back, who's going to read it, who's going to connect with it, what, what reaction you're going to get. Um, did you ever have a another reaction that like with someone contacted you? That was surprising.
Fikret Pajalic: 12:03
I can't think of.
Amra Pajalic: 12:04
Maybe it's been a while since it's published um, so you had your short story collection published by a very prestigious micro-press called Pishukan Press that is run by someone, so could you talk about the process of collaboration for the cover and the publication process.
Fikret Pajalic: 12:26
So, as you know, I've been trying to get short stories published for a while and keep getting them back. It's a hard sell for publishers short story collections, yeah, and you know they like the stories. But they say, oh, I love this story, I can expand on it and blah, blah, blah. So. But I really wanted short story collection published and then I, you know I was disappointed, got discouraged, didn't think about it for a few years. Then you started your publishing house and it was a while before we came to that kind of idea.
Fikret Pajalic: 13:03
I was practicing, I was like getting all my books that were like that too Kind of getting experienced in publishing wherever it's called area, and I think it took me a while to see your point of view, but it's time because it's not going to get published somewhere else and yeah, so I'll let you do it. We've got some good reviews and a few famous Melbourne authors yeah, so we've got endorsements from. Lee Kaufman from Lee Kaufman which I was very happy about. When she said yes, I was so happy yeah, we've got some beautiful endorsements.
Amra Pajalic: 13:51
Yeah, so that was really, really I was so happy. Yeah, we've got some beautiful endorsements. I don't know, a spoon, I think. Yeah, so that was really, really great. And also, like you had a vision for the cover in terms of complications. Do you want to talk about that, because we worked on that quite a bit.
Fikret Pajalic: 14:05
Yeah, so that's, I'm probably going to be spoiled if I talk too much. Well, that's okay, because there's to be spoiled if I talk too much. That's okay Because there's a short story. Complication in this collection and it kind of revolves around old-fashioned wristwatches and they all have complications in their mechanisms, like if they show time, that's one complication, if they show seconds, that's another complication, and there can be many, many different complications. Those little mechanisms are referred to in watchbuilding industry, so some of them they can show, I don't know, moon faces or something like that. That's like really intricate complication. So, and our lives are basically full of complications.
Amra Pajalic: 15:04
Yes.
Fikret Pajalic: 15:05
So, and I think the whole book when it's read. It's basically you read a story, then another story and you get to the end. It's like one complication after the other.
Amra Pajalic: 15:21
What would you say are some of the themes that you deal with?
Fikret Pajalic: 15:24
So it's mostly, you know, Australia, western suburbs refugees, Bosnians, Bosnian refugees, racism towards refugees yeah, that's a big one Towards different cultures and religions and people with different names, like mine that are hard to pronounce, and that sort of stuff. But also there are a lot of animals. In every story there's an animal dogs, some cats, mostly dogs, even though I never had a dog, but, yeah, cats. So there's kind of a theme going through all stories and there are motif and symbolism, yeah, so, yeah, that's basically. They're all kind of based on my experience Maybe not all, but some of them are based on the experiences of people that I know or knew and they told me the story Because we share the history in terms of kind of we went through war, came as refugees, but they have different stories and somebody maybe told me a story.
Fikret Pajalic: 16:38
This is what happened to my brother when he was in Bosnia during the war. Or this is what happened to my sister when she arrived to Australia. There was one story with a single mother and two kids who arrived from Bosnia to Australia not knowing what happened to her husband, and so I took that little thread and made it like a long, long story, developed it further without you know. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic: 17:11
So, using the inspiration of all these things that you've heard, people you knew, did it happen to?
Fikret Pajalic: 17:16
me, or it happened to the community I come from.
Amra Pajalic: 17:20
That's the thing, isn't it? It's all like we collect stories, especially when we're writers. We're just constantly having conversations and collecting these stories, and they find their way.
Fikret Pajalic: 17:29
Yeah, yeah, we weave them in. They kind of stay in your head and then, oh, your car, I can use that.
Speaker 1: 17:35
An actual story that you're talking about. Flock, flock, yes, yeah, it's really quite beautiful, because it's a single mother who's about to be evicted.
Fikret Pajalic: 17:45
Evicted yeah.
Amra Pajalic: 17:46
And it's about this hardship.
Fikret Pajalic: 17:47
So all that really happened.
Amra Pajalic: 17:49
Yeah.
Fikret Pajalic: 17:50
But then I kind of.
Amra Pajalic: 17:51
It's also about hope in hopeless situations and people being good, and getting help from unexpected places. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, and that's the thing. Even though your story is, you know, they have this thread of sadness and this thread of reality. There is this sense of hope and this sense of joy and this sense of joy and connection that people find in unexpected places.
Fikret Pajalic: 18:19
I think on your website you have trigger warnings because some stories are very, very confronting and I got the feedback where people read some stories and they feel like they're being punched.
Amra Pajalic: 18:35
But we both write dark, and so for us we're like well, this is just life and this is what we write about um, but then we sort of they're not all like that, but there are a few of them that are quite yeah, and that's what I do now with um.
Amra Pajalic: 18:47
A lot of my writing, especially the war books that I'm about to release, I have um content warnings where I'm like there's some people who want to know about it. I don't want to put it in the book, and we didn't do that with your book. We didn't want it in the book because it can be seen as spoilers and we don't want to spoil it for people. But, um, if there are people who need to sort of be aware of certain things, then we've got a qr code and it takes them to a page where it's got um content warnings and you know that way you've got that heads up. So we're just sort of trying to navigate this, because we also use a lot of real language and a lot of um. You know western suburbs, that's how we talk. Um, you know that some people find that confrontational. Now you might have a further short story collection in the works. I don't know about that. You don't know about that. There are more stories because you have written over 50 short stories.
Fikret Pajalic: 19:44
No, I've written more. Over 50 have been published.
Amra Pajalic: 19:47
Over 50 every month, so we theoretically could have another, like another, two collections worth Theoretically, yes, so I just need to slowly work on him and get this sorted, because this is something that I want to do. This is kind of my life's work. Now, in another area of your life, you did a Master's in Arts Administration and you are now an arts officer delivering exhibitions in visual arts in arts councils. So what advice do you have for new artists in this area?
Fikret Pajalic: 20:21
So I've worked with a lot of established artists and emerging artists and it's kind of established artists they're quite good. They've been like Lucas Kasper, we both know they know the process. And then I guess the main advice I have I don't know if it's even advice, but for emerging artists, like, don't be precious if somebody approaches you or you were shortlisted. If somebody approaches you or you were shortlisted to be exhibited by a council here in Melbourne, just take it and work with the arts officer.
Fikret Pajalic: 21:05
Yes, and try to adjust as much as you can to their vision, because it's hard to you know to have an exhibition, yeah.
Fikret Pajalic: 21:17
And you know, don't be pressured. So I've seen some of the younger artists that are like that's not my vision, I can't. You know they get three thousand dollars fee, for example, to be exhibited, but they're demanding or they're just kind of not flexible Because councils basically they will never. Most of them, you know they're not going to put something on their walls in the gallery that's stupid or controversial so they won't get complaints. So you know it's your first exhibition and you're getting some exposure, so just don't be too precious about your art.
Amra Pajalic: 22:00
Yes, it's that issue of artists wanting to have a vision and wanting to push the boundaries and seeing this as perhaps censorship, but it's also like you have to understand who is funding this. Who is paying you for this?
Amra Pajalic: 22:17
There's always time for that, later with your next exhibition or later when you establish yourself. Then you can you know, in private galleries they can put whatever they want basically. So that can be their aim, further than the track. But to get to that point you need to, you know, establish, you need to get exhibited with local council yes, that sort of stuff.
Amra Pajalic: 22:42
So and I guess, going back to talking about the short stories that you had published and working with editors, it's about um, developing your, about having those opportunities and about learning from it and building your skill level.
Fikret Pajalic: 22:57
It's very similar where you kind of you trust the editor or, in their case they trust the arts officer. It's nurturing them in a way to get that first exhibition done.
Amra Pajalic: 23:19
And most of them are fine, they accept all of us. Every now and then you get a person illusions of grandeur, it's like oh no.
Amra Pajalic: 23:29
The problem is sometimes when things happen too early and you don't quite know about the world, you don't realise opportunities, like I remember when I got published with my debut novel and I was at a conference called Reading Matters Conference and I've never been to that conference. I didn't know what it was, I didn't realise what a big deal that was until years later, where I was like, oh my God, that was a really big deal. My publisher, text Publishing at the time, you know, got me on a panel but I did not have any idea what that was. And that's sometimes the issue you don't realise until afterwards where you're like oh, that was an amazing opportunity that I don't know I'll have again. So any last words on the power of arts for wellbeing and joy.
Fikret Pajalic 24:12
Oh, I don't know. I guess if you're a writer, keep writing, if that helps you deal with your mental issues, if you have any, then we all have some Similar with visual arts.
Amra Pajalic: 24:35
Yeah, what was the question? Last words on the power of arts for wellbeing and joy, because you were talking about that. You started writing because of counselling?
Fikret Pajalic: 24:43
yeah, but for me, it was a bit difficult was it ultimately cathartic did it help?
Fikret Pajalic: 24:52
I don't know. Yeah, maybe, maybe you're being cautious here in terms of our health. Yes, I got hurt again, yeah, when I was, you know, putting it on paper, so you get that secondary trauma. Yeah, yeah, eventually it gets better and, like, all depends on the person I live, you know. So I don't know, probably not the best person to give any. Yeah, eventually it gets better. It all depends on the person. I don't know. I'm probably not the best person to give any mental health advice, because I went through anxiety and depression and every now and then I still. I might have a really bad morning but great afternoon. It's just kind of up and down or good month and then next month it's pretty crappy.
Amra Pajalic: 25:38
I guess, since we're talking about it, this is the residue of being a refugee. Can you talk a little bit more about your experiences as a refugee in Germany, just to give everyone some time?
Fikret Pajalic: 25:48
Austria sorry, I might have confused those two. I might confuse those two.
Fikret Pajalic: 25:51
Well, I didn't have any status there because I was basically kind of illegal. In a way it was all in limbo because Western Europe kind of didn't experience refugee wave for a while. There was almost this thing where it's like like how can a white person be a refugee? Normally people from my country would go to germany and austria and switzerland to work, you know, for economic reasons, and then waves of people came with nothing and it was confronting, for those societies to see that.
Fikret Pajalic: 26:33
And also I remember I met an Englishman in Australia who came as a tourist to do some skiing or whatever. Because I was in a little town high in the Alps, and then he said something along the line I can't comprehend that this is happening to white people.
Amra Pajalic: 26:55
That's what he actually said.
Fikret Pajalic: 26:56
I thought we were. You know the Western society in Europe. Yes, that's never going to happen again, especially after the Second World War. What happened to Jewish people? You know, six million Jews were in the Holocaust and all that and like, oh, it's happening again to another group of white people can you contextualize the war?
Amra Pajalic: 27:19
So we're talking about Yugoslavia, the breakup of yugoslavia and the fact that you know bosnians um were then independent and you know there was a conflict as a result of that. So, just so, we have that context, um. So and you had some really terrible things happen when you were in Austria in terms of that limbo and the effects of that. All right, well, thank you so much for being my first, it's hard for me to think about it.
Amra Pajalic: 27:47
It's hard, but I really appreciate you. Those questions weren't on the list. They weren't on the list. I sort of took the thread. I wasn't really prepared, no. So I really appreciate you talking about that and sharing that.
Fikret Pajalic: 28:02
So thank you so much, maybe in my next interview.
Amra Pajalic: 28:05
Maybe for your next short story collection wink, wink.
Amra Pajalic: 28:09
So thank you so much for being my guinea pig, being the first person I've interviewed, for helping me set up the studio. He has helped me so much in terms of all my beautiful armchairs and all my equipment, and thank you, I hope, to those of you who might be watching and listening to this. Thank you for joining me for this episode of Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. Bye-bye. Thank you for tuning in to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. Thank you for tuning in to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe and follow for more insights, stories and inspiration From my armchair to yours. Remember, every story begins with a single word.
Welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. I'm Amra Pajalic, writer, teacher and storyteller. Pull up a chair and let's dive into stories about writing life and lessons learned, sharing wisdom from my armchair to yours. You can find the episode show notes, your free episode handouts and my how-to guides at amrapayaliccom/podcast. And now it's time to dive in. Welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. This is the first episode of my podcast as I transition into an interview podcast, and my first interviewee is Fikret Pajalic. And my first interviewee is Fikret Pajalic.
Amra Pajalic: 0:45
He came to Melbourne as a refugee, learned English in his mid-20s and started writing. He won and placed in competitions, published in anthologies and literary magazines. His fiction has appeared in Nianjin Overland Westerly Etching. Sleepers Antipodes the Big Issue Hotel America Wisconsin Review sleepers antipodes the big issue hotel america wisconsin review minnesota review so many, so many places. Um, I think, over 50 publishing credits internationally for his short stories and um he was awarded in 2014 and created victoria grant in 2015, an australian council grant for the development of his literary manuscript. He is married to me, so we've actually been married for 28 years and he is the first author that I published under my press. Fish you can press. This is his short story collection. It's called complication and so welcome, fictitious, to my podcast. Thank you. Being my first my guinea pig, I'm calling him as I learn how to transition into an interview podcast. So first I just wondered could you tell me and the audience about how and why you started writing short stories?
Fikret Pajalic: 2:02
Okay, so I came toia as a refugee in 1994 and it took me about 10 years to realise that I suffer from ptsd. That was the time when people weren't talking about mental health issues, especially men. So, uh, it took me a while to realise I suffered from, yeah, post-traumatic stress. At the time I worked for the Department of Justice and I witnessed something which was really disturbing and part of the process was to get to go to EAP Employee Assistance Program and I spoke with a counselor, had a few sessions and then she suggested that I maybe I should put some of my previous experiences in writing so that, in a way, that's you're supposed to deal with it.
Fikret Pajalic: 3:03
But it was a bit of a catch-22 for me because or double-edged sword, I should say Every time I wrote something I got hurt again. So it triggered a little bit. Yeah, it was triggering, but I kept writing and she read some of the stuff and then she said maybe you should turn some of this stuff. And then she said maybe you should turn some of this stuff into stories or something like that.
Fikret Pajalic: 3:29
And then like a memoir type of thing, but I wasn't really in the mood to do memoir.
Fikret Pajalic: 3:37
So some of the stuff that I went through I turned into short stories. So that's kind of how it started. But it took a while for me to kind of get them really to a publishing standard. A lot of reading writing groups, that sort of stuff, so that's how I started.
Amra Pajalic: 3:56
So can you talk to me about getting your stories published and your approach to that?
Fikret Pajalic: 4:01
Well, I remember writing my first story. It was called Leaving. It was about 700 words words and you read it.
Amra Pajalic: 4:08
That's right.
Fikret Pajalic: 4:09
I was kind of his mentor and I asked for feedback and I thought it was the best thing ever, and then you pulled it apart.
Amra Pajalic: 4:18
We got a little bit of a tiff. As you do when you're an emerging writer, it's very hard.
Fikret Pajalic: 4:23
I was at that time still precious, yeah. So it took me a couple of days to get over it and start rewriting and taking your feedback into you know, putting it all together Then it turned out to be like almost 3,000 words story. The biggest takeaway from the first feedback is show, don't tell.
Fikret Pajalic: 4:50
In writing you have to show things rather than just say yeah. And shortly after I joined a writing group at Caroline Springs Library, which was a really good one, because there were a lot of aspiring authors or writers who gave fantastic feedback and that helped you further polish the story, started submitting and developed this strategy of revolving door submissions, where I always assumed that when I send a story to a magazine, that it's going to be knocked back and I already had planned where the story's going to go next. So if I'm submitting to Mianjin, they're going to knock me back. So I'm going to go to Overland they're going to knock me back. I'm going to go to a short story competition, maybe. So I just kept submitting, never expecting to be published, and when you get published, it's great.
Amra Pajalic: 6:01
And can you talk about, because with Overland and M and the Engine, one of them took 12 submissions and one 14 submissions yeah, I don't know which one, but it took a while.
Fikret Pajalic: 6:11
And basically you kind of keep knocking on the door and when they realise you're serious editors with both those magazines, they kind of they take you seriously. They give you more in-depth feedback, yes, or suggestion where to go with your story. It's not for us but try there and things like that. But yeah, when I got published in Overland that was like a big tick. Big tick, yeah, and then subsequently I think I got published another two or three times at least with them.
Fikret Pajalic: 6:48
But Meanjin was one that I really wanted to get in, because they're like the literary journal, and I got a few knockbacks and eventually got published. It was Complication Story, which is a title of the short story collection as well, and it was Zora Sanders who was editor at the time and she was really kind and patient and took me to the steps, a lot of feedback and I published the story even with her. Even further and, yeah, that was like when that got published in the engine. I was really happy.
Amra Pajalic: 7:30
And what was your view about working with editors when they gave you feedback?
Fikret Pajalic: 7:35
Well, it depends on the editor. Like with these more established magazines, they're really good, especially if they've been in the job for a few years. But I had some kind of weird experiences with new magazines where editors and others experienced that they tried to chop and change a lot, I guess. But it was only like once or twice where I decided my story was accepted but it just wasn't a good fit. There was the vision of the magazine and my story and I'm like, yeah, change this, change the other thing. And blah, blah, blah.
Fikret Pajalic: 8:20
I remember being published in one of the American journals I can't remember what it is. I remember being published in one of the American journals I can't remember what it is and I submitted like a four, four and a half thousand point story and they said that she slashed it to 2,000 words. My favorite author is Raymond Carver and he got advice from his long time editor. I can't remember his name I think his surname is Leish something he told Raymond Carver every time he wrote a sentence that's 15 words, make it 5. So that's what she did with that story and when I read it first, I'm like what did she do? I'm like wow. Then I read it again, then again I'm like, oh, my god, she made it really good, really to the point. It was like every sentence counted, so yeah, so yeah. 99% of the time I just go with the editor, because very occasionally they don't know what they're doing, but very occasionally so then you have to take a stand, you say no, I can't change that.
Amra Pajalic: 9:37
Yeah, and you also had these editors write you letters of support when you were applying for the grants?
Fikret Pajalic: 9:44
Yes, Zora Sands did, and I can't remember the name of the other person who wrote it. I don't know whether it was Jennifer Mills at Overland, I can't remember. But yeah, so because you establish the contact, especially if you get published a few times, because after I got published with my engine, I actually wrote my first memoir piece, which was also published in Melbourne.
Amra Pajalic: 10:10
Can you tell us what happened with that?
Fikret Pajalic: 10:12
piece, I don't know.
Amra Pajalic: 10:14
Well, wasn't there an editor who contacted you?
Fikret Pajalic: 10:21Ah yeah, there was a guy from one of the publishing houses who said I want your piece. Can you write a memoir?
Speaker 1: 10:24Yes, and how did your wife, who was working on a memoir for five years at the time feel.?
Fikret Pajalic: 10:28
But I offered him my short story collection but he was interested in memoir and I didn't have like 50,000 words and wasn't ready to yeah, yeah, just memoir's not my thing, but yeah, but memoir piece in me engine. It was like a what do they call it? Narrative fiction, narrative, non-fiction type of thing where you read it. When a person reads it, sometimes they're not aware that it's non-fiction.
Amra Pajalic: 11:03
Yeah, it reads like a fiction piece.
Fikret Pajalic: 11:05
It reads like a fiction piece, but it's actually that particular memoir piece which was nearly 6,000 words, I think, and for such a long piece to be published in the engine, that's like a lot of pages. Yeah, they dedicated it.
Amra Pajalic: 11:31
So yeah, I'm very proud of that one, because the only memoir piece I think I've written.
Fikret Pajalic: 11:33
Actually, there was something in Big Issue, which was 700, 800 words, that was published as well, but don't ask me what it was, I can't remember, but this is the thing about short story publication and short story opportunities.
Amra Pajalic: 11:47
It's building those networks. And also, what I always come back to is when you put things out there, you don't know what's going to come back, who's going to read it, who's going to connect with it, what, what reaction you're going to get. Um, did you ever have a another reaction that like with someone contacted you? That was surprising.
Fikret Pajalic: 12:03
I can't think of.
Amra Pajalic: 12:04
Maybe it's been a while since it's published um, so you had your short story collection published by a very prestigious micro-press called Pishukan Press that is run by someone, so could you talk about the process of collaboration for the cover and the publication process.
Fikret Pajalic: 12:26
So, as you know, I've been trying to get short stories published for a while and keep getting them back. It's a hard sell for publishers short story collections, yeah, and you know they like the stories. But they say, oh, I love this story, I can expand on it and blah, blah, blah. So. But I really wanted short story collection published and then I, you know I was disappointed, got discouraged, didn't think about it for a few years. Then you started your publishing house and it was a while before we came to that kind of idea.
Fikret Pajalic: 13:03
I was practicing, I was like getting all my books that were like that too Kind of getting experienced in publishing wherever it's called area, and I think it took me a while to see your point of view, but it's time because it's not going to get published somewhere else and yeah, so I'll let you do it. We've got some good reviews and a few famous Melbourne authors yeah, so we've got endorsements from. Lee Kaufman from Lee Kaufman which I was very happy about. When she said yes, I was so happy yeah, we've got some beautiful endorsements.
Amra Pajalic: 13:51
Yeah, so that was really, really I was so happy. Yeah, we've got some beautiful endorsements. I don't know, a spoon, I think. Yeah, so that was really, really great. And also, like you had a vision for the cover in terms of complications. Do you want to talk about that, because we worked on that quite a bit.
Fikret Pajalic: 14:05
Yeah, so that's, I'm probably going to be spoiled if I talk too much. Well, that's okay, because there's to be spoiled if I talk too much. That's okay Because there's a short story. Complication in this collection and it kind of revolves around old-fashioned wristwatches and they all have complications in their mechanisms, like if they show time, that's one complication, if they show seconds, that's another complication, and there can be many, many different complications. Those little mechanisms are referred to in watchbuilding industry, so some of them they can show, I don't know, moon faces or something like that. That's like really intricate complication. So, and our lives are basically full of complications.
Amra Pajalic: 15:04
Yes.
Fikret Pajalic: 15:05
So, and I think the whole book when it's read. It's basically you read a story, then another story and you get to the end. It's like one complication after the other.
Amra Pajalic: 15:21
What would you say are some of the themes that you deal with?
Fikret Pajalic: 15:24
So it's mostly, you know, Australia, western suburbs refugees, Bosnians, Bosnian refugees, racism towards refugees yeah, that's a big one Towards different cultures and religions and people with different names, like mine that are hard to pronounce, and that sort of stuff. But also there are a lot of animals. In every story there's an animal dogs, some cats, mostly dogs, even though I never had a dog, but, yeah, cats. So there's kind of a theme going through all stories and there are motif and symbolism, yeah, so, yeah, that's basically. They're all kind of based on my experience Maybe not all, but some of them are based on the experiences of people that I know or knew and they told me the story Because we share the history in terms of kind of we went through war, came as refugees, but they have different stories and somebody maybe told me a story.
Fikret Pajalic: 16:38
This is what happened to my brother when he was in Bosnia during the war. Or this is what happened to my sister when she arrived to Australia. There was one story with a single mother and two kids who arrived from Bosnia to Australia not knowing what happened to her husband, and so I took that little thread and made it like a long, long story, developed it further without you know. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic: 17:11
So, using the inspiration of all these things that you've heard, people you knew, did it happen to?
Fikret Pajalic: 17:16
me, or it happened to the community I come from.
Amra Pajalic: 17:20
That's the thing, isn't it? It's all like we collect stories, especially when we're writers. We're just constantly having conversations and collecting these stories, and they find their way.
Fikret Pajalic: 17:29
Yeah, yeah, we weave them in. They kind of stay in your head and then, oh, your car, I can use that.
Speaker 1: 17:35
An actual story that you're talking about. Flock, flock, yes, yeah, it's really quite beautiful, because it's a single mother who's about to be evicted.
Fikret Pajalic: 17:45
Evicted yeah.
Amra Pajalic: 17:46
And it's about this hardship.
Fikret Pajalic: 17:47
So all that really happened.
Amra Pajalic: 17:49
Yeah.
Fikret Pajalic: 17:50
But then I kind of.
Amra Pajalic: 17:51
It's also about hope in hopeless situations and people being good, and getting help from unexpected places. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, and that's the thing. Even though your story is, you know, they have this thread of sadness and this thread of reality. There is this sense of hope and this sense of joy and this sense of joy and connection that people find in unexpected places.
Fikret Pajalic: 18:19
I think on your website you have trigger warnings because some stories are very, very confronting and I got the feedback where people read some stories and they feel like they're being punched.
Amra Pajalic: 18:35
But we both write dark, and so for us we're like well, this is just life and this is what we write about um, but then we sort of they're not all like that, but there are a few of them that are quite yeah, and that's what I do now with um.
Amra Pajalic: 18:47
A lot of my writing, especially the war books that I'm about to release, I have um content warnings where I'm like there's some people who want to know about it. I don't want to put it in the book, and we didn't do that with your book. We didn't want it in the book because it can be seen as spoilers and we don't want to spoil it for people. But, um, if there are people who need to sort of be aware of certain things, then we've got a qr code and it takes them to a page where it's got um content warnings and you know that way you've got that heads up. So we're just sort of trying to navigate this, because we also use a lot of real language and a lot of um. You know western suburbs, that's how we talk. Um, you know that some people find that confrontational. Now you might have a further short story collection in the works. I don't know about that. You don't know about that. There are more stories because you have written over 50 short stories.
Fikret Pajalic: 19:44
No, I've written more. Over 50 have been published.
Amra Pajalic: 19:47
Over 50 every month, so we theoretically could have another, like another, two collections worth Theoretically, yes, so I just need to slowly work on him and get this sorted, because this is something that I want to do. This is kind of my life's work. Now, in another area of your life, you did a Master's in Arts Administration and you are now an arts officer delivering exhibitions in visual arts in arts councils. So what advice do you have for new artists in this area?
Fikret Pajalic: 20:21
So I've worked with a lot of established artists and emerging artists and it's kind of established artists they're quite good. They've been like Lucas Kasper, we both know they know the process. And then I guess the main advice I have I don't know if it's even advice, but for emerging artists, like, don't be precious if somebody approaches you or you were shortlisted. If somebody approaches you or you were shortlisted to be exhibited by a council here in Melbourne, just take it and work with the arts officer.
Fikret Pajalic: 21:05
Yes, and try to adjust as much as you can to their vision, because it's hard to you know to have an exhibition, yeah.
Fikret Pajalic: 21:17
And you know, don't be pressured. So I've seen some of the younger artists that are like that's not my vision, I can't. You know they get three thousand dollars fee, for example, to be exhibited, but they're demanding or they're just kind of not flexible Because councils basically they will never. Most of them, you know they're not going to put something on their walls in the gallery that's stupid or controversial so they won't get complaints. So you know it's your first exhibition and you're getting some exposure, so just don't be too precious about your art.
Amra Pajalic: 22:00
Yes, it's that issue of artists wanting to have a vision and wanting to push the boundaries and seeing this as perhaps censorship, but it's also like you have to understand who is funding this. Who is paying you for this?
Amra Pajalic: 22:17
There's always time for that, later with your next exhibition or later when you establish yourself. Then you can you know, in private galleries they can put whatever they want basically. So that can be their aim, further than the track. But to get to that point you need to, you know, establish, you need to get exhibited with local council yes, that sort of stuff.
Amra Pajalic: 22:42
So and I guess, going back to talking about the short stories that you had published and working with editors, it's about um, developing your, about having those opportunities and about learning from it and building your skill level.
Fikret Pajalic: 22:57
It's very similar where you kind of you trust the editor or, in their case they trust the arts officer. It's nurturing them in a way to get that first exhibition done.
Amra Pajalic: 23:19
And most of them are fine, they accept all of us. Every now and then you get a person illusions of grandeur, it's like oh no.
Amra Pajalic: 23:29
The problem is sometimes when things happen too early and you don't quite know about the world, you don't realise opportunities, like I remember when I got published with my debut novel and I was at a conference called Reading Matters Conference and I've never been to that conference. I didn't know what it was, I didn't realise what a big deal that was until years later, where I was like, oh my God, that was a really big deal. My publisher, text Publishing at the time, you know, got me on a panel but I did not have any idea what that was. And that's sometimes the issue you don't realise until afterwards where you're like oh, that was an amazing opportunity that I don't know I'll have again. So any last words on the power of arts for wellbeing and joy.
Fikret Pajalic 24:12
Oh, I don't know. I guess if you're a writer, keep writing, if that helps you deal with your mental issues, if you have any, then we all have some Similar with visual arts.
Amra Pajalic: 24:35
Yeah, what was the question? Last words on the power of arts for wellbeing and joy, because you were talking about that. You started writing because of counselling?
Fikret Pajalic: 24:43
yeah, but for me, it was a bit difficult was it ultimately cathartic did it help?
Fikret Pajalic: 24:52
I don't know. Yeah, maybe, maybe you're being cautious here in terms of our health. Yes, I got hurt again, yeah, when I was, you know, putting it on paper, so you get that secondary trauma. Yeah, yeah, eventually it gets better and, like, all depends on the person I live, you know. So I don't know, probably not the best person to give any. Yeah, eventually it gets better. It all depends on the person. I don't know. I'm probably not the best person to give any mental health advice, because I went through anxiety and depression and every now and then I still. I might have a really bad morning but great afternoon. It's just kind of up and down or good month and then next month it's pretty crappy.
Amra Pajalic: 25:38
I guess, since we're talking about it, this is the residue of being a refugee. Can you talk a little bit more about your experiences as a refugee in Germany, just to give everyone some time?
Fikret Pajalic: 25:48
Austria sorry, I might have confused those two. I might confuse those two.
Fikret Pajalic: 25:51
Well, I didn't have any status there because I was basically kind of illegal. In a way it was all in limbo because Western Europe kind of didn't experience refugee wave for a while. There was almost this thing where it's like like how can a white person be a refugee? Normally people from my country would go to germany and austria and switzerland to work, you know, for economic reasons, and then waves of people came with nothing and it was confronting, for those societies to see that.
Fikret Pajalic: 26:33
And also I remember I met an Englishman in Australia who came as a tourist to do some skiing or whatever. Because I was in a little town high in the Alps, and then he said something along the line I can't comprehend that this is happening to white people.
Amra Pajalic: 26:55
That's what he actually said.
Fikret Pajalic: 26:56
I thought we were. You know the Western society in Europe. Yes, that's never going to happen again, especially after the Second World War. What happened to Jewish people? You know, six million Jews were in the Holocaust and all that and like, oh, it's happening again to another group of white people can you contextualize the war?
Amra Pajalic: 27:19
So we're talking about Yugoslavia, the breakup of yugoslavia and the fact that you know bosnians um were then independent and you know there was a conflict as a result of that. So, just so, we have that context, um. So and you had some really terrible things happen when you were in Austria in terms of that limbo and the effects of that. All right, well, thank you so much for being my first, it's hard for me to think about it.
Amra Pajalic: 27:47
It's hard, but I really appreciate you. Those questions weren't on the list. They weren't on the list. I sort of took the thread. I wasn't really prepared, no. So I really appreciate you talking about that and sharing that.
Fikret Pajalic: 28:02
So thank you so much, maybe in my next interview.
Amra Pajalic: 28:05
Maybe for your next short story collection wink, wink.
Amra Pajalic: 28:09
So thank you so much for being my guinea pig, being the first person I've interviewed, for helping me set up the studio. He has helped me so much in terms of all my beautiful armchairs and all my equipment, and thank you, I hope, to those of you who might be watching and listening to this. Thank you for joining me for this episode of Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. Bye-bye. Thank you for tuning in to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. Thank you for tuning in to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe and follow for more insights, stories and inspiration From my armchair to yours. Remember, every story begins with a single word.
For more about Fikret Pajalic go to his website
Ebook
|
Paperback (Australian residents only)
|
Handout
| ep_11_handout_literary_journals.pdf |