37-Persistence, Patience, Practice, Passion: Elisabeth Storrs on the Writer's Life
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You can listen above or on your favourite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
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You can listen above or on your favourite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
Show notes
Elisabeth Storrs, a former lawyer and acclaimed historical fiction writer, discusses her transition from law to writing, the challenges of balancing writing with family responsibilities, and the persistence and passion that kept her project alive for a decade. She also explores the challenges of publishing World War II fiction and the impact of Nazi research ideology. The conversation delves into the psychology of eugenics and genocide, highlighting the modern-day relevance of understanding historical atrocities. It also explores the challenges in publishing historical fiction and the power of digital books. Additionally, it discusses the Historical Novel Society, the judging criteria for historical fiction prizes, and the importance of community in writing.
Takeaways
Chapters
Takeaways
- Balancing family responsibilities with writing requires dedication and regular practice.
- Historical accuracy in fiction requires a balance between research and storytelling. Understanding the psychology of eugenics and genocide
- The power of digital books in publishing
Chapters
- 00:00 Introduction to Elisabeth Storrs and Her Novels
- 02:01 Transition from Law to Writing
- 03:20 Balancing Writing and Family Responsibilities
- 04:41 Efficiency and Growth in Writing
- 06:18 Inspiration and Creation of a Project
- 10:43 Exploring Women's Stories in Historical Fiction
- 12:58 Balancing Historical Accuracy and Storytelling
- 15:37 Practical Tips for Organizing Research
- 18:07 Persistence and Passion in Writing
- 20:12 Challenges in Publishing World War II Fiction
- 25:03 The Ideology and Impact of Nazi Research
- 27:34 The Psychology of Eugenics and Genocide
- 29:13 Understanding Modern-Day Genocide
- 30:22 Challenges in Publishing Historical Fiction
- 35:12 The Power of Digital Books
- 38:43 The Historical Novel Society and Literary Prizes
- 46:28 Judging Criteria for Historical Fiction Prizes
- 47:55 The Importance of Community in Writing
Connect with Elisabeth Storrs
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Elisabeth Storrs former lawyer who spent over fifteen years researching and writing her acclaimed A Tale of Ancient Rome trilogy. Her latest novel, Fables & Lies: A World War II Novelis set in 1940s Berlin, follows Freyja Bremer, a museum assistant who marries an SS scholar to protect her family, only to fall for an archaeologist who exposes the lies underpinning the Nazi regime. Inspired by the true, little-known story of the curators who risked their lives to save Priam's Treasure and the Aryan myth manufactured by Himmler's Ahnenerbe institute.
Beyond her own novels, Elisabeth is a driving force in Australian historical fiction: she co-founded the Historical Novel Society Australasia and established the ARA Historical Novel Prize, the richest literary prize of its kind in Australia and New Zealand, and is a longtime contributor to the History Girls blog. She lives in Sydney with her husband. Website: https://elisabethstorrs.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/elisabethstorrsauthor/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/elisabeth.storrs/ |
Transcript of episode
Amra Pajalic (00:00)
Welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. Today I'm with Elisabeth Storrs, who's a former lawyer and spent over 15 years researching and writing her acclaimed A Tale of Ancient Rome trilogy. Her latest novel, Fable and Lies, a World War II novel set in 1940s Berlin, follows Freya Bremer, a museum assistant who marries an SS scholar to protect her family, only to fall for an archaeologist. Who exposes the lies underpinning the Nazi regime? Inspired by the true Little known story of the curators who risked their lives to save Priam's treasure and the Aryan myth manufactured by Himmler's Arnaneb Institute. Beyond her own novels, Elisabeth is a driving force in Australian historical fiction. She co founded the Historical Novels Society Australasia and established the R A R I A Historical Novel Prize, the richest literary prize of its kind in Australia and New Zealand, and is a longtime contributor to the History Girls blog. She lives in Sydney with her husband. Thank you and welcome.
Elisabeth Storrs (01:11)
Thank you. I'm really happy to be here.
Amra Pajalic (01:13)
Yes, we were just speaking before the recording that you are testing me in terms of some amazing concepts and and names that I'm having to learn how to pronounce and you will have to keep reteaching me. so I know
Elisabeth Storrs (01:29)
I had to learn them too.
Amra Pajalic (01:31)
it's funny how you like you get into this whole world, because I'm doing my thesis and I'm using Nora Pearce Fury, and then I had to learn how to pronounce it in French.
Elisabeth Storrs (01:43)
Ha ha
Amra Pajalic (01:44)
I think. And then every time I'm doing a speech, I have to like relearn how to say it again because it just doesn't want to stay in my long-term memory. So we want I wanted to start talking to you first about you trained and worked as a lawyer before becoming a novelist. How do you think this influenced your writing?
Elisabeth Storrs (02:01)
Well, I have to say that if you scratch most lawyers you'll find a a frustrated novelist. So
Amra Pajalic (02:10)
Yep.
Elisabeth Storrs (02:11)
I'm not that unusual. but I I actually have always been in love with creative writing, so right from school days and but kind of when life got in the way be w with with work, I stopped writing. and funnily enough when I had my two boys and and I went into parental leave when they were babies, I actually started to put in my diary two hours a week. That's all I could afford. and I hired like a babysitter from a like like a twelve year old schoolgirl and they she would come And I'd be in the same house and she would babysit the boys. And that's where I started and that's kind of why it took fifteen years to r to write my debut novel, The Wedding Shroud. and then when I was secured a p contract. I was able to then write the two following books in the trilogy, The Golden Dice in eighteen months and call to Juno the third book in twelve months. So I became much more efficient and I think practiced helped. But it was really a case
Amra Pajalic (03:15)
Yeah.
Elisabeth Storrs (03:16)
of, you know, you put it in your diary. I I call it bum glue, you know, you actually sit down and do it. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (03:23)
Yeah, and and that's the thing, I I'm I'm sure you hear this too where when we go out and we have the privilege of be doing an author talk or a workshop and all these emerging writers come up to us and they're like, How do you find the time? How do you do it? And it's like there is no trick unfortunately, there's no magic trick. It is literally prioritizing and you know, you do have to even though you have family responsibilities and all these other responsibilities, you do have to just dedicate some regular time even as you said it might be two hours once a week to practice in order to just have it happening and and build that momentum.
Elisabeth Storrs (04:02)
Yeah. Yes. And as the you know, as my family grew up I was able to kind of carve out more more time. but but ultimately it's it's really as w y you say, you you have to dedicate yourself to to that time. And it's amazing what you can do. And what I've found is that, you know, you would leave that time and then you still have ideas bubbling 'cause you want to keep going. Like you were frustrated you couldn't keep riding. so that you next time you sit down you're ready to go. So I never I never kind of suffered from the blank page writer's block because I just never you know had enough time to put all the ideas and I was thinking about it, you know, waking up at four o'clock in the morning. and I would ride on the train if I managed to get a seat and I used to allocate my lunchtime. So yeah, it's it's just a case of play. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (04:56)
Yeah, and I think, like you, my theory is that writer's block is only a privilege of those who have unlimited time. Those of us 'cause I too used to write on the train, handwrite notes and then transcribe.
Elisabeth Storrs (05:08)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (05:09)
those of us who have to constantly kind of keep fighting for time in our life, Yeah, you d you it's just always there, something's bubbling away because that frustration is
Elisabeth Storrs (05:20)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (05:21)
what's prompting us. And I also love how you know, I've felt that too, that the more books I write, the quicker the process becomes, the more efficient we become. And I've interviewed quite a few authors, and there's that thing of they kept getting stuck on the one book and keep kind of circling it.
Elisabeth Storrs (05:38)
Yes, yes, yes. You've got to know when to let go. That's for sure. Yes.
Amra Pajalic (05:43)
Mm. Yeah. I mean, as that saying goes, ri books are never finished, they're abandoned.
Elisabeth Storrs (05:49)
Like that.
Amra Pajalic (05:51)
Yeah, yeah, that actually helped me. because I'm like, okay, that that's you know how it goes. Now, I just wanted to ask, you know, even though you said this was a 15-year project, but you said an Etruscan sarcophagus in the Louvre started everything. so can you take us back to that one moment and how one image became this project?
Elisabeth Storrs (06:12)
Yeah. Yes, so th this is the Roman trilogy that s and I actually I'm a a nerd, so I studied ancient history and the classics at university and school. so I was always always interested in history and so I was kind of looking at art history and I saw the I saw a photo of this sarcophagus that was in the Louvre, which I finally saw when I got to to visit France. But it was unusual because I I I knew from the Roman history I'd studied that women were very much second-class citizens and it was unusual to depict a woman in funerary art with a man or even in funerary art. This is 7th century BC. And so and they had kind of an unusual facial fixtures. they had kind of almond-shaped eyes and more of a straight nose and brow. And I started thinking about, you know, it it was that they was lying on this sarcophagus with their arm around each other, it was so tender. And I thought, you know, which culture is showing such a sensuous connection in this art? And w what society would value women enough to put them in funerary art? And I discovered the Etruscans. And the Etruscans were a a very cosmopolitan, sophisticated Empire that ruled long before Rome rose to prominence. And then I discovered that there had been an a ten-year siege between
Amra Pajalic (07:43)
Yeah.
Elisabeth Storrs (07:43)
Rome, like the early Republican Rome, and a city called Vei, which was only twelve miles across the Tiber River from each other. And basically you could cross the Tiber River. from the Dark Ages to the Renaissance because the Etruscans they gave independence, sexual freedom and education to women at a time when Rome were treating them as second class citizens and possessions of men. So that's that's how it started. This sarcophagus started me off in a research that led me to this amazing civilization and also the story of this seed. and so I wanted to contrast the c the civilizations. So to do it I f I created a young Roman girl who is married off to an enemy, Etruscan man in Vei, to seal a truce. There's a tenuous truce. And she comes to Vei and she discovers like all of these freedoms that she can be given. But they also have a very kind of Dionysian religious free society, so sh is confronting her that she has to face these conflicting moralities within in this society and ultimately she has to decide does she choose her h husband's society or or Rome at the end.
Amra Pajalic (09:01)
It's fascinating how as writers where we get our inspiration but and you know where where the story tells. I love that description you did. but also women's stories, like you know, that seems to be a theme that you're wanting to put women's stories out there and and share their perspective, which I also really love.
Elisabeth Storrs (09:22)
Yeah, well particularly well, in Rome it's always tends to be like very male oriented and battlefields and armies and power. and I really do like bringing women into the fore. I like to put women into a a pressure cooker, v an environmental pressure cooker, and this is the same thing I've done with Fables and Lies in Berlin. So I place them into a situation where they're they actually have very very little options and they face conflicting moralities and they also face impossible choices. And they have to work out using their own resources, intelligence, how are they going to maneuver through to survive as much as anything, but also live with themselves, like you know, deal with their own integrity and and morality. So I really love
Amra Pajalic (10:11)
Mm.
Elisabeth Storrs (10:12)
exploring that type of thing.
Amra Pajalic (10:14)
Yeah, as a teacher and I teach humanities and therefore history and it's quite disheartening when you look at the textbooks, how there's one chapter women in an ancient civilization and then there's one chapter about a famous woman and then
Elisabeth Storrs (10:31)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (10:32)
we have that disproportionate story of his story and not enough of the female perspectives. so I love that, that's really admirable. So yeah you've How do you balance historical accuracy with the demands of story, romance, suspense without either one swallowing the other?
Elisabeth Storrs (10:53)
Yes, well I tend to be I love research, so I have to be I I end up in the tar pit of research. So I have to kind of it's the same as knowing when to s stop the book, it's you know, you have to stop the research. But historical fiction to to me is you use history as a scaffold and then historical fiction c you know, like I'm not at writing a history book, so I'm looking at what the emotions were, the motivations, and reading between the lines. I mean going into those rooms, listening to the conversations, you don't get that in the history book. but to me research has to drive drive story. And that story is like the the really preeminent thing in writing historical fiction. And so I use the history as a scaffold and then I for example in this World War II book I found the story of these amazing German museum curators that protected their national treasure. And I was able to access the diary and correspondence of of a a curator called Wilhelm Umversaart who actually was protecting Priam's treasure. So I was able to use I was able to use kind of his actual story to be the spine and then I then I kind of wove wove the history around yeah the the story around it by b introducing Freya Bremer into being someone that works with him in the museum. It's based on his story but it it is a fictional account. So the the the research has to drive instilling a sense of place, deepening character or driving plot. So if if it's not doing anything like along those lines or deepening the theme, then really you just have to cut it out. But I tend to overwrite it and then I you know edit, edit, edit, edit. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (12:47)
Mmm. And I just wanted to ask a practical question in terms of organizing research and collecting research. because you know that's the other thing you it is a historical novel and you do veer off, but then you kind of find yourself having to backtrack sometimes certain things and no, what why did I do that? so what are your practical tips around that?
Elisabeth Storrs (13:08)
Yeah, so I I love Scrivener. I write in Scrivener and Scrivener you can set up different folders with the different topics and and then I will put information into there. and I Evernote is another one that I use to actually keep all the the links of the you know, like 'cause I you find a lot of links. In fact, I I joke because I I'm writing about a him research institute the Ananeba and it was very dark. It was a you know this this is a very dark Nazi dogma. So I kind of say if the AGIO ever looked at my the search history they think I was a neo Nazi. But yes, I use Evernote to to keep all of the doc you know documents together. You can tag that so that when you want to search again, you know, y it comes up. You can also search within Scrivener as well. But once I have the research, I start I'm quite disciplined, I guess it's my lawyer background. I I in Scrivener I I set out kind of an outline of the chapters and then I ha I have a a a document that's the the writing, but I also have a document which is the key salient points of that history that I want to bring into that chapter. So I keep synthesizing things down so that once you get to the writing you know I only want to talk about those particular research points.
Amra Pajalic (14:28)
Mm, yeah, I did for my PhD, my first my novel Is a historical novel and I use Scrivener too, so invaluable for saving things and for creating all of those things. And then for me, I struggled with the story because it was the first time I was writing a historical novel and overwrote because I wanted to include every single, you know, historical facet I had found and was like, how do I put this in? And
Elisabeth Storrs (14:57)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (14:58)
that's the difficult thing. You do have to kind of go back to what is the story. story and what is that you know scaffold that you're wanting to have and then what needs to go in there because you can't include everything there's so much fascinating research.
Elisabeth Storrs (15:10)
No, you can't.
Amra Pajalic (15:13)
So Fables and Lies took ten years to reach readers. What kept this alive through the decade for you?
Elisabeth Storrs (15:19)
Yes, so now it took another ten years to write th this, and That's because I mean similarly I was in the sandwich generation looking after elderly parents and and children when I first wrote The Wedding Shroud. by the time I got I'm not I'm not much older now, but I then had to look after my mother in law who had dementia, and so I ha kind of hit this sa sandwich again where I had work. I was running historical novel society Australasia and we had a I don't want to go into it but there was a series of of family cris you know tragedies so yeah I I it was take took me away from writing as much as I wanted to and researching. researching also World War II. I went moved from moved from Rome all the way to World War II and yeah so there was a lot to to get in terms of understanding getting my head around World War II. So that's why it took that's why it took so long. and then it you know, and then it takes like it took take eight years to kind of finish it, but another two years to get it pu you know, out to agents and published and it's people don't realise it can take up to two years to then actually get onto the page. yeah, so but what drove me? Passion, absolute passion, and escapism. I mean, I've just writing is my escape from all of those pressures of of everyday life. So that's what kept driving me.
Amra Pajalic (16:41)
the thing when we've been doing this for a few decades, like I'm forty-nine, it's been three decades, you go through all of these different challenges in life and different time frames in life and sometimes you can write quicker, sometimes slower depending on what's going on. But the most important thing is you just keep pursuing it. You
Elisabeth Storrs (17:01)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (17:02)
you don't let it go. You you have to hold on to that passion and hold on to that joy and and that escape it provides, especially when we are going through those very hard times and I've done exactly the same as you I've had those, you know, both the sandwich phases of life with children
Elisabeth Storrs (17:18)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (17:21)
and with my parents. so was it hard to find a publisher willing to take on World War Two fiction, given how crowded the genre has become?
Elisabeth Storrs (17:30)
It was very difficult. And it was also frustrating because when I started writing it, World War II was like the trend. Like you know, there was just complete World War II, you know, mania almost. So by the time I finished this and started trying to sell it, World War II I was c I was told was over. So yeah, I had to keep persisting and I f finally found it. both an agent and a and a publisher that just looked at the story. And my my my World War Two story is not like any other you know, like I've had descriptions they said they've never read a novel like it about World War Two because I'm not writing about big battles, I'm not writing about a resistance story, I'm not writing about a Holocaust story, although I am writing about how the Nazis, their their psyche, their psychopathy led to to the the genocide. but I'm writing it f from a woman's perspective, it's the fragile walls of daily life that I'm writing it from. and I think that's why it's it's different. Now now that people are starting to read it, they're kind of going, this I've never read a World War II book like like this because it just g gives everybody a different viewpoint, a a better understanding of what the kn Nazi ideology was based on. and so that that was where Himmler's Himmler's had a research institute called the Aneneba and it actually had quite a few reputable prehistorians and scientists in it. because a lot of the academics at their time made a Faustian bargain. To survive. and allow their work to continue in the Nazi regime. some of them were, you know, threatened. My Dr. Ungsacht, you know, he he was very threatened. and also his museum was. And so he he turned to the Einerbecause Himmler loved prehistory and he was running this prehistory museum. So he got patronage. But there were very, very evil scientists also within the Ananeba and they propagated racial theory based on based on st bizarre ideas including Atlantis and how the yes so Himmler sent a expedition to Tibet to find evidence of Proto-Aryans who had survived Atlantis. And and the theory was that those Proto Aryans that survived, they then spread across the world, seeding all great civilizations. but they ended up interbreeding with and sorry this is Nazi vocab vocabulary, you know, base races, you know, who corrupted them and you know, so that's why you didn't see Aryans in across the entire world. So that was w one of their theories. And the other thing that that they did with archaeology is they warped it, they twisted it to say that the Indo Aryans, which we now call Indo Europeans, they originated in Germany and Denmark and again
Amra Pajalic (20:35)
Mm-hmm.
Elisabeth Storrs (20:36)
spread across through Europe. So ultimately their argument was it was an ancestral homecoming for them to t take over Eastern Europe because origin you know that that's where the original Indo Aryans settled. So
Amra Pajalic (20:52)
I know. That it's it's fascinating when you look at because I I studied a subject called race politics at university and you know, it was examining a lot of these and when you look at it all it's just basically justifications for theories
Elisabeth Storrs (21:05)
yes.
Amra Pajalic (21:06)
that are just and and so they have to get quite bizarre and and outlandish in order to sell it. It's all about selling it.
Elisabeth Storrs (21:14)
Yes. And they sold it to many of the German people.
Amra Pajalic (21:19)
No.
Elisabeth Storrs (21:20)
who took up the ideology. But I mean, I very much spent a long time looking at whether the German people were victims or perpetrators. And I came to the conclusion that you can't, you know, you you can't treat them as a monolith. You know, there there's millions of people there with different motivations and and also experience. and but there was an underlying you know, entrenched anti Semitism in across Germany and across the all all the world. America was very anti Semitic at that time. and they were also anti Slav. They were it's
Amra Pajalic (21:54)
Yes. Which I know 'cause I'm Bosnian. And you know, mum my husband's father ended up in a no grandfather ended up in a camp. because not in a camp but in a like he was taken as a prisoner of war and then there was also that whole thing of the Slavs.
Elisabeth Storrs (22:11)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (22:12)
We are we are the the terrible. Yeah. Mm.
Elisabeth Storrs (22:14)
You y you were the sorry, they called them untermension, the under the subhumans, you know people of colour, Slavs, Jews, travelers, you know, Romani.
Amra Pajalic (22:25)
Mm.
Elisabeth Storrs (22:26)
and they c they they murdered twenty million Slavs. Twenty million slabs. It it
Amra Pajalic (22:31)
Mm. Mm.
Elisabeth Storrs (22:34)
it was horrendous. So
Amra Pajalic (22:36)
Mm.
Elisabeth Storrs (22:37)
and that was based on this prehistory that basically said the Aryan race were superior and And also that they were entitled to take back the slabs
Amra Pajalic (22:48)
Mm.
Elisabeth Storrs (22:48)
of land that they originally I mean this is centuries, like thousands of years before, had settled in.
Amra Pajalic (22:53)
Yeah. Because
Elisabeth Storrs (22:55)
And you know, the irony is that they have now established that the Indo Europeans originated in Ukraine.
Amra Pajalic (23:02)
Yes. because there's this thing about, you know, Bosnians were from the Caucasus and originally like yeah,
Elisabeth Storrs (23:06)
Mm focus. Yes.
Amra Pajalic (23:08)
the migration pattern and the way it went out
Elisabeth Storrs (23:10)
Hm, yes.
Amra Pajalic (23:11)
and and that's why a lot of Bosnians pale blue eye blue eyes or green eyes like you know, have that because that's where the ri originate w we originated from.
Elisabeth Storrs (23:22)
Yes. Yes. Well, yes, that's right. And
Amra Pajalic (23:27)
I wonder if it was that, I'm just gonna do a bit of psychoanalysis here, if it was that threat of, you know. but yeah, it's I don't know, those theories are are really when you look at them and you look at the way that they try and justify, even the fact that, you know, when when slavery in America were going out of fashion, that's when they started introducing eugenics to dehumanize
Elisabeth Storrs (23:46)
yeah.
Amra Pajalic (23:47)
the African American population to justify what they were doing. So it's just that whole psychology. even when I'm my thesis on Looking at genocide in, you know, what was Yugoslavia. And it was, you know, psychoanalytic theory that was being used in the Serb Republic by psychiatrists to sell this, you know, Serb nationhood and this needing to clean the Turks, which is what they called Bosnian Muslims. And so it's quite I don't know, it's quite
Elisabeth Storrs (24:19)
Well it's it's ha it ha it's happening today. It's it ha it's
Amra Pajalic (24:22)
It's happening today.
Elisabeth Storrs (24:23)
it's happened into modern times. replacement theory, you know, the whole idea that this is destroying culture. The the Nazis said that the Aryans were creators of culture and the you know, the subhumans, it's just disgusting, were the destroyers of culture. But that replacement theory is is live and kicking at the moment across the world. And so I I was kind of very inspired by Primo Levy, who was a
Amra Pajalic (24:49)
Mm-hmm.
Elisabeth Storrs (24:50)
Jew that survived the camps. And he has said, you know, it happened before and it you know it it will happen again and it can happen anywhere. And you know when understanding is impossible, you know, knowing is imperative. So we really do need to understand that this is happening in the world today as well.
Amra Pajalic (25:12)
Absolutely. And you know, we're talking about learning history and history not repeating and yet it keeps repeating and
Elisabeth Storrs (25:20)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (25:20)
yeah genocides keep happening and and being justified on these superiority theories? It's quite heartbreaking. I just wanted to go back a little bit and talk about, you know, in terms of the publishing journey that you had and the fact that it was difficult because, you know, World War Two as a genre or as a area is is done for. What advice would you have for any writers who are working on that area in terms of seeking publication.
Elisabeth Storrs (25:50)
Well it might come back. I mean I s I I didn't write to a trend. I didn't r start writing that book because I I saw World War Two as an opportunity. I I I just I just write based on my passion. So I wouldn't necessarily I mean I found a publisher. I found a publisher. And yeah, so You never know whether one of the agents said, you know, could come back back again because there's just so many stories arising from it. And I just noticed there's on the SBS or there's a Tom Hanks documentary about World War Two. I don't think it ever goes away, really. And when you look on Amazon, there's a whole subcategory that's World War Two and and I I I think there's still a lot of readers out there that that will want it. So and you can always self publish.
Amra Pajalic (26:38)
Yes, which is what I'm doing now. I was traditionally published, and you know, undertook that journey and and was very fortunate to have the apprenticeship I had into the publishing industry. And now I've reached a point where I just want complete control. And
Elisabeth Storrs (26:53)
Yes, yeah, well.
Amra Pajalic (26:56)
just the joy. So I think what in a sense if I can paraphrase If you are writing historical fiction and we're gonna you know talk about World War II specifically right now, do the story that you want to do. you know, keep that passion alive and don't look at trends because you don't know one how long it's gonna take, two what
Elisabeth Storrs (27:14)
Yeah, perfectly.
Amra Pajalic (27:15)
is happening in the publishing industry. It's always waxing and waning.
Elisabeth Storrs (27:18)
definitely. And at the moment they're they're looking at, you know, romanticy and you know, they they publishing industry fixate on y you know, once there's some success in one thing then they all jump on. But it's all v very much from the rear vision. So I've had I I have I started off being published by an Australian publisher, that went you know, the the imprint there, fiction imprint went to the wall. So I then self published my wedding shroud i and the golden dice and You know, I've I found a it was in what I called the gold indie gold rush. It was there was a time when Amazon was very, very kind to indie authors and you could you know, you could sell a lot of books, which I I did. and that as you say, it was amazing the control you had and the ability you know, the the dexterity that you and the flexibility and but I was then picked up by Lake Union, which is a huge Amazon publishing imprint and that just rocketed these books and then then they commissioned me to write a the third book called a Juno but they really understood they really understood the power of the digital book the e book whereas more traditional publishers are so fixated on the paperback. And Lake Union also understood the backlist. So, yeah, so that's why I think it was successful because they they just understood that you you don't just put the book into the into the cellar of you know lost stories or at Pult. They they they really try and sell the e books. so yeah, so my success has a a lot of it has been digital books. and I've I've sold tens of thousands of them. So I really yeah Try and try and not concentrate too much on the paperback. The paperback has a shelf life of about six weeks or twelve weeks in a bookshop. They're they're on razor thin margins, they you know, they don't have enough shelf space and if you don't get picked up straight away, then your publisher won't give you any marketing dollars. so yeah, it's Yeah, yeah. Did digital books to me and people think, it's terrible, you know, paperbacks well you can still buy a paperback, but yeah, you've got your backlist. It's there forever.
Amra Pajalic (29:41)
Yes, and did you with this publisher that published Fable and and the book about Freya, Fable and Lies, did you split the rights where you just gave them paper back or they've also got the digital
Elisabeth Storrs (29:51)
No, they've they've got digital and paperback, but then I have a deal with Bolinda audio and they created the audiobook.
Amra Pajalic (29:58)
Okay, good.
Elisabeth Storrs (29:58)
So it's it's available in all in all formats, but I've got two publishers doing it. so I found
Amra Pajalic (30:02)
Yeah.
Elisabeth Storrs (30:03)
two publishers that were interested in World War Two. So you know, you yeah, you but I'm I'm very obstinate and I persevere a lot and so
Amra Pajalic (30:11)
Yes.
Elisabeth Storrs (30:12)
I just kept on going and going. I didn't give up trying to get it out there. But yeah.
Amra Pajalic (30:17)
That's and that's another thing that I'll really point out for writers because I was the same my memoir I had an agent at that time and the agent submitted to the big five and she was done and I wasn't and so I took it over and I submitted and I got a traditional publishing deal and then got shortlisted for the biography prize, which was lovely because
Elisabeth Storrs (30:40)
Fantastic.
Amra Pajalic (30:41)
that shortlist came with a cash attached to it, so that was really lovely.
Elisabeth Storrs (30:44)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (30:46)
But you know, like there really it is persistence, you do have to kind of be obstinate and and have that belief and kind of just keep trying.
Elisabeth Storrs (30:56)
Yes, yeah. Bis persistence, patience, practice, passion, all the peas. Perspiration.
Amra Pajalic (31:02)
All the piece. I love it. I'm gonna come up with something with that. That's brilliant. This is gonna be a clip for the social media, I can tell you that right now. yeah, because and and also just to go back to what you were talking about, when we're talking about the way that traditional publishers treat e-books, is they price them pretty much at the same price point as
Elisabeth Storrs (31:18)
Yes, yes.
Amra Pajalic (31:20)
a paperback because they're wanting to force readers
Elisabeth Storrs (31:23)
Thank you.
Amra Pajalic (31:24)
to choose to buy the paperback instead of the digital book.
Elisabeth Storrs (31:28)
Exactly. That's exactly right.
Amra Pajalic (31:30)
And when we look at our royalty statements from traditional publishers, we have paperback sold and then we have like three e-books sold.
Elisabeth Storrs (31:38)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (31:39)
And that really disadvantages us long term because once it's out of the bookstores, it's not available anywhere, and then the e-book is not being picked up.
Elisabeth Storrs (31:49)
Yes. And in fact the backlist is so im important now. My I have now got another publisher that approached me to buy out Lake Union's digital rights just because all they all they publish are bac backlists.
Amra Pajalic (32:02)
Yes.
Elisabeth Storrs (32:02)
So because they that they're and it's yeah, only digital and
Amra Pajalic (32:07)
Mm.
Elisabeth Storrs (32:07)
the backlist. Alison Stewart, I think you you interviewed her. She she was picked up, this was DP
Amra Pajalic (32:10)
Yes, I interviewed her.
Elisabeth Storrs (32:13)
publishing, it was picked up because some of these digital publishers are very savvy and and understand yeah, that that you can market them ultimately forever.
Amra Pajalic (32:25)
Yes. And also for us it's a boon because we get a higher percentage point of the digital sales versus with the paperback, the way that the price points work.
Elisabeth Storrs (32:34)
Mm.
Amra Pajalic (32:35)
In terms of we get ten percent, bookstores get, you know, forty percent I think, and then, you know, like it just the percentages keep going, in
Elisabeth Storrs (32:42)
Yes, yes.
Amra Pajalic (32:44)
terms of the way that it's all being split, so yeah it's it's a very different ecosystem
Elisabeth Storrs (32:50)
Hm.
Amra Pajalic (32:50)
and and very different in terms of what we have the ability to do. So I wanted to talk a little bit about the fact that you co-founded the Historical Novel Society, Australasia and the ARA Historical Novel Prize. And these are the now the richest literary prize of this kind in the region. What gap were you trying to fill when you started that?
Elisabeth Storrs (33:14)
Well the historical novel society, there is a a one in the UK, like the main main one, and they have an also in a U a US one which is even bigger than the UK. and the Richard Lee who set it up in the UK approached me and said, Well we want a presence, you know, in in Australia in in Australia. And so we we we're kind of a loosely affiliated. We're not we're not legally under their their umbrella but they really wanted to you know spread read the news about historical fiction down here because they they run conferences. So we started to do the biennial conferences. And then we we really want to promote historical fiction and the genre. the prize came along because of very, very generous philanthropist, Ed Fetterman from the ARA group, he was a history knight and he has always wanted to promote historical fiction in a prize. And we really wanted to elevate the genre because there's this there was this kind of other literary prizes it's like historical fiction they kind of look down on it. But when when you look at s Miles Franklin, there's so many that are actual historical fiction novels starting with Tom Ceneely and Schindler's Ark. and then we've got Richard Flanagan, you know, that narrowed narrowed road to the deep north. So
Amra Pajalic (34:33)
Beautiful.
Elisabeth Storrs (34:34)
great Kate Kate Grenville with like there's so many,
Amra Pajalic (34:37)
A secret river.
Elisabeth Storrs (34:38)
yes, that we wanted them to be recognized as historical fiction and not necessarily literary fiction. And so that That was our passion. I'm I work with a small volunteer committee and we're all i we're all historical novelists and we're really committed to to getting the message out there bec because I think there's a lot of people that love historical fiction.
Amra Pajalic (35:00)
And so that's a great opportunity for any historical writers to join that association and 'cause you do workshops also, you do
Elisabeth Storrs (35:08)
Yes. And but it's for readers it's for readers and writers. Like it's it's we welcome everybody. so Yes, so it it's you can join us. it's mainly our Facebook group. We've got a n newsletter that you can join. So if you want to look at the Historical Novel Society of Australasia, just go to www.historical novel dot org dot au and you'll find out all about us. So
Amra Pajalic (35:32)
Wonderful. The really important thing when you are, you know, to any emerging writers, whatever genre you are writing in, it's really important to find any associations or organizations or groups that are working with it because it's that opportunity to network, to learn, to connect,
Elisabeth Storrs (35:49)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (35:50)
but then also you know to write and and submit books for prizes, which brings me to the question, does this prize accept self-published authors? Yeah.
Elisabeth Storrs (36:00)
Yes. Yes, we we're a broadchurch. Yes, we do. we we we believe that there can be very, very talented self published authors that just have not been able to find a home in the traditional publishing landscape and We we run it with it's a hundred and fifty five thousand dollars overall. We've got two categories, adult and cYA. and in the CYA we had a shortlister who was a self published author. So yes. Yes, we we we do.
Amra Pajalic (36:31)
And I'm I'm lo I love hearing that 'cause there are still some prizes that refuse to allow self published authors and
Elisabeth Storrs (36:37)
Yes, yeah.
Amra Pajalic (36:39)
it's really disappointing because my theory and my you know, motto is that these days I think that the only viable option of of authors actually making a living from their writing is being self published and having that control, because as you said for the ebooks and stuff, that i if you are just Australian published, being able to earn a viable income is really
Elisabeth Storrs (37:05)
Difficult. Hmm. Advances, yep. And then wealth is yep. It's
Amra Pajalic (37:05)
you know, yeah, almost impossible really. You just get little tiny you know yeah, yeah, or and then it's like the the royalties are just like psh gone
Elisabeth Storrs (37:16)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (37:17)
gone. and I just wanted to also clarify in terms of what is historical fiction, what is the definition and the period that you accept
Elisabeth Storrs (37:26)
So so for the prize, it's it has various subgenres, so you can be historical fantasy, crime, romance, alternate history, etc. or straight, I guess you call it straight historical thing, not quite sure. but the definition w is that it has to be set more than fif fifty years in the past and so that's in the seventies and that more than fifty percent of the narrative must be set in the past. So there are parallel, what I call parallel or braided novels which are very very popular but you ha you have to have the majority of of it set It's now seventy six before nineteen seventy six. we have to do that because prizes, you know, it's you just have to have something concrete like that in order to it it it just we we do acknowledge that, you know, the the past there are books written in the nineteen nineties which now you would probably call historical fiction, which are is really scary because, you know, I I'm a living source for that, you know. So
Amra Pajalic (38:32)
Me too.
Elisabeth Storrs (38:33)
Yes. So yeah, a bit confronting. But yeah, so so th there's not a hard and fast rule I would call in terms of time period for just generally, but certainly for the prize, it's fifty years or more in the past. And yes, so that's the definition, but we have all the sub subgenres as well.
Amra Pajalic (38:53)
Hmm, well, really important for any writers who are working in this genre to check that out. now a little bit of a cheeky question to, you know, continue that. What do judges look for in a submission when they're reading the prize? What do you, through your experience think separates a good historical novel from a great one?
Elisabeth Storrs (39:13)
Well, the criteria that the judges look at is excellence in writing, excellence in storytelling, depth of research, but also commerciality, you know, like that it's a a book that readers want to read. and so th those are the criteria, so that's what they're they're looking at. the the weightings we used to have a a bigger weighting towards excellence in writing, but now we've actually made them all equal across the board so they're judging it in in that way so Don't forget to include a story. You know, the storytelling is very important. Writing beautifully is not necessarily going to get you the prize, although I have to say all the prize winners have been beautifully written, you know, as well. But yeah, so make sure you hone your skills but also keep your eye on storytelling, compelling storytelling.
Amra Pajalic (40:05)
And that's the thing sometimes, you know, when we're talking about beautiful writing, but it's like, is there a plot? Is there characterization? And and you do kind of need all of those things working together. you're also part of the History Girls blog community. So what has that collective of historical novelists taught you about the genre or given you insight into?
Elisabeth Storrs (40:26)
Well that that is a a group that's English, American, Australian. it we're set up to write a blog post about history. I you only have we we do it sorry, something is published every Friday. but the obligation is I write twice a year a a article about it. And the beauty of it is that it's it's a community, it's a network, it's like if if someone's having a bit of a problem, then you can just go to them and talk to them and everybody's either either had the same experience or yeah, it's it's just a really good community and it's you know, they they're high quality. They they're very I mean they're very prestigious. Elizabeth Chadwick is one of them. So Yes, so you you learn from them as well, the the very successful ones.
Amra Pajalic (41:14)
so one of the things that I'm hearing is that, you know, we write and we write by ourselves and we have to keep finding that time, but it is also really important to create that community and look for and look for opportunities for collaboration and you know, give back in a sense, like you know, where you're giving but you're also getting in terms of the community and connections you're making.
Elisabeth Storrs (41:34)
Yeah. I I very b much believe in karma. So I
Amra Pajalic (41:37)
Yeah.
Elisabeth Storrs (41:38)
think generosity of spirit to all writers, you know, will bring you also benefits. yeah. So that's why the Historical Novel Society Australasia, you know, it's worth going and having a look at. one of the things we've kind of call it a festival now, it's History Unbound festival, is that like everybody has a fantastic time. You were at you were at our last one at Parramatta, you know, you presented. but I think why it's a friendly event is that everyone there is interested in history. So if you're meeting someone over a cup of tea, you just ask, what's your favorite piece of history, your era? And suddenly you can strike up a conversation. so, yeah, we've always had happy events. And people
Amra Pajalic (42:20)
Yeah.
Elisabeth Storrs (42:21)
then network, you know, they can network.
Amra Pajalic (42:23)
Yeah, so it's so important to kind of go and like yeah, I had a great time and I was just like talking to people and I had this moment where was like, people are asking me questions. my gosh, am I do I have something to say? 'Cause you have that imposter syndrome every time you step into a new you know new
Elisabeth Storrs (42:37)
Yes, yeah.
Amra Pajalic (42:39)
new identity and it's like, ooh, ooh, this is a big one. yeah, so that's wonderful. So where can we find you?
Elisabeth Storrs (42:46)
So just to be confusing, my name, I'm Elisabeth Storrs, but I'm Elisabeth Storrs with an S, not a Z, and I'm Storrs S T O R R S. So you can find me at www.elisabethstorrs.com. But I'm also on Instagram and Facebook. and still on Twitter but or X but yeah, mainly Ist Instagram and Facebook. at at Elisabeth Storrs Author.
Amra Pajalic (43:12)
Lovely. Well thank you so much, Elisabeth, for this conversation and it's given me a lot of food for thought in terms of collaboration and community.
Elisabeth Storrs (43:21)
I'm glad, yeah. I really enjoyed chatting to you today. Thank you.
Amra Pajalic (43:25)
Thank you.
Welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. Today I'm with Elisabeth Storrs, who's a former lawyer and spent over 15 years researching and writing her acclaimed A Tale of Ancient Rome trilogy. Her latest novel, Fable and Lies, a World War II novel set in 1940s Berlin, follows Freya Bremer, a museum assistant who marries an SS scholar to protect her family, only to fall for an archaeologist. Who exposes the lies underpinning the Nazi regime? Inspired by the true Little known story of the curators who risked their lives to save Priam's treasure and the Aryan myth manufactured by Himmler's Arnaneb Institute. Beyond her own novels, Elisabeth is a driving force in Australian historical fiction. She co founded the Historical Novels Society Australasia and established the R A R I A Historical Novel Prize, the richest literary prize of its kind in Australia and New Zealand, and is a longtime contributor to the History Girls blog. She lives in Sydney with her husband. Thank you and welcome.
Elisabeth Storrs (01:11)
Thank you. I'm really happy to be here.
Amra Pajalic (01:13)
Yes, we were just speaking before the recording that you are testing me in terms of some amazing concepts and and names that I'm having to learn how to pronounce and you will have to keep reteaching me. so I know
Elisabeth Storrs (01:29)
I had to learn them too.
Amra Pajalic (01:31)
it's funny how you like you get into this whole world, because I'm doing my thesis and I'm using Nora Pearce Fury, and then I had to learn how to pronounce it in French.
Elisabeth Storrs (01:43)
Ha ha
Amra Pajalic (01:44)
I think. And then every time I'm doing a speech, I have to like relearn how to say it again because it just doesn't want to stay in my long-term memory. So we want I wanted to start talking to you first about you trained and worked as a lawyer before becoming a novelist. How do you think this influenced your writing?
Elisabeth Storrs (02:01)
Well, I have to say that if you scratch most lawyers you'll find a a frustrated novelist. So
Amra Pajalic (02:10)
Yep.
Elisabeth Storrs (02:11)
I'm not that unusual. but I I actually have always been in love with creative writing, so right from school days and but kind of when life got in the way be w with with work, I stopped writing. and funnily enough when I had my two boys and and I went into parental leave when they were babies, I actually started to put in my diary two hours a week. That's all I could afford. and I hired like a babysitter from a like like a twelve year old schoolgirl and they she would come And I'd be in the same house and she would babysit the boys. And that's where I started and that's kind of why it took fifteen years to r to write my debut novel, The Wedding Shroud. and then when I was secured a p contract. I was able to then write the two following books in the trilogy, The Golden Dice in eighteen months and call to Juno the third book in twelve months. So I became much more efficient and I think practiced helped. But it was really a case
Amra Pajalic (03:15)
Yeah.
Elisabeth Storrs (03:16)
of, you know, you put it in your diary. I I call it bum glue, you know, you actually sit down and do it. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (03:23)
Yeah, and and that's the thing, I I'm I'm sure you hear this too where when we go out and we have the privilege of be doing an author talk or a workshop and all these emerging writers come up to us and they're like, How do you find the time? How do you do it? And it's like there is no trick unfortunately, there's no magic trick. It is literally prioritizing and you know, you do have to even though you have family responsibilities and all these other responsibilities, you do have to just dedicate some regular time even as you said it might be two hours once a week to practice in order to just have it happening and and build that momentum.
Elisabeth Storrs (04:02)
Yeah. Yes. And as the you know, as my family grew up I was able to kind of carve out more more time. but but ultimately it's it's really as w y you say, you you have to dedicate yourself to to that time. And it's amazing what you can do. And what I've found is that, you know, you would leave that time and then you still have ideas bubbling 'cause you want to keep going. Like you were frustrated you couldn't keep riding. so that you next time you sit down you're ready to go. So I never I never kind of suffered from the blank page writer's block because I just never you know had enough time to put all the ideas and I was thinking about it, you know, waking up at four o'clock in the morning. and I would ride on the train if I managed to get a seat and I used to allocate my lunchtime. So yeah, it's it's just a case of play. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (04:56)
Yeah, and I think, like you, my theory is that writer's block is only a privilege of those who have unlimited time. Those of us 'cause I too used to write on the train, handwrite notes and then transcribe.
Elisabeth Storrs (05:08)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (05:09)
those of us who have to constantly kind of keep fighting for time in our life, Yeah, you d you it's just always there, something's bubbling away because that frustration is
Elisabeth Storrs (05:20)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (05:21)
what's prompting us. And I also love how you know, I've felt that too, that the more books I write, the quicker the process becomes, the more efficient we become. And I've interviewed quite a few authors, and there's that thing of they kept getting stuck on the one book and keep kind of circling it.
Elisabeth Storrs (05:38)
Yes, yes, yes. You've got to know when to let go. That's for sure. Yes.
Amra Pajalic (05:43)
Mm. Yeah. I mean, as that saying goes, ri books are never finished, they're abandoned.
Elisabeth Storrs (05:49)
Like that.
Amra Pajalic (05:51)
Yeah, yeah, that actually helped me. because I'm like, okay, that that's you know how it goes. Now, I just wanted to ask, you know, even though you said this was a 15-year project, but you said an Etruscan sarcophagus in the Louvre started everything. so can you take us back to that one moment and how one image became this project?
Elisabeth Storrs (06:12)
Yeah. Yes, so th this is the Roman trilogy that s and I actually I'm a a nerd, so I studied ancient history and the classics at university and school. so I was always always interested in history and so I was kind of looking at art history and I saw the I saw a photo of this sarcophagus that was in the Louvre, which I finally saw when I got to to visit France. But it was unusual because I I I knew from the Roman history I'd studied that women were very much second-class citizens and it was unusual to depict a woman in funerary art with a man or even in funerary art. This is 7th century BC. And so and they had kind of an unusual facial fixtures. they had kind of almond-shaped eyes and more of a straight nose and brow. And I started thinking about, you know, it it was that they was lying on this sarcophagus with their arm around each other, it was so tender. And I thought, you know, which culture is showing such a sensuous connection in this art? And w what society would value women enough to put them in funerary art? And I discovered the Etruscans. And the Etruscans were a a very cosmopolitan, sophisticated Empire that ruled long before Rome rose to prominence. And then I discovered that there had been an a ten-year siege between
Amra Pajalic (07:43)
Yeah.
Elisabeth Storrs (07:43)
Rome, like the early Republican Rome, and a city called Vei, which was only twelve miles across the Tiber River from each other. And basically you could cross the Tiber River. from the Dark Ages to the Renaissance because the Etruscans they gave independence, sexual freedom and education to women at a time when Rome were treating them as second class citizens and possessions of men. So that's that's how it started. This sarcophagus started me off in a research that led me to this amazing civilization and also the story of this seed. and so I wanted to contrast the c the civilizations. So to do it I f I created a young Roman girl who is married off to an enemy, Etruscan man in Vei, to seal a truce. There's a tenuous truce. And she comes to Vei and she discovers like all of these freedoms that she can be given. But they also have a very kind of Dionysian religious free society, so sh is confronting her that she has to face these conflicting moralities within in this society and ultimately she has to decide does she choose her h husband's society or or Rome at the end.
Amra Pajalic (09:01)
It's fascinating how as writers where we get our inspiration but and you know where where the story tells. I love that description you did. but also women's stories, like you know, that seems to be a theme that you're wanting to put women's stories out there and and share their perspective, which I also really love.
Elisabeth Storrs (09:22)
Yeah, well particularly well, in Rome it's always tends to be like very male oriented and battlefields and armies and power. and I really do like bringing women into the fore. I like to put women into a a pressure cooker, v an environmental pressure cooker, and this is the same thing I've done with Fables and Lies in Berlin. So I place them into a situation where they're they actually have very very little options and they face conflicting moralities and they also face impossible choices. And they have to work out using their own resources, intelligence, how are they going to maneuver through to survive as much as anything, but also live with themselves, like you know, deal with their own integrity and and morality. So I really love
Amra Pajalic (10:11)
Mm.
Elisabeth Storrs (10:12)
exploring that type of thing.
Amra Pajalic (10:14)
Yeah, as a teacher and I teach humanities and therefore history and it's quite disheartening when you look at the textbooks, how there's one chapter women in an ancient civilization and then there's one chapter about a famous woman and then
Elisabeth Storrs (10:31)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (10:32)
we have that disproportionate story of his story and not enough of the female perspectives. so I love that, that's really admirable. So yeah you've How do you balance historical accuracy with the demands of story, romance, suspense without either one swallowing the other?
Elisabeth Storrs (10:53)
Yes, well I tend to be I love research, so I have to be I I end up in the tar pit of research. So I have to kind of it's the same as knowing when to s stop the book, it's you know, you have to stop the research. But historical fiction to to me is you use history as a scaffold and then historical fiction c you know, like I'm not at writing a history book, so I'm looking at what the emotions were, the motivations, and reading between the lines. I mean going into those rooms, listening to the conversations, you don't get that in the history book. but to me research has to drive drive story. And that story is like the the really preeminent thing in writing historical fiction. And so I use the history as a scaffold and then I for example in this World War II book I found the story of these amazing German museum curators that protected their national treasure. And I was able to access the diary and correspondence of of a a curator called Wilhelm Umversaart who actually was protecting Priam's treasure. So I was able to use I was able to use kind of his actual story to be the spine and then I then I kind of wove wove the history around yeah the the story around it by b introducing Freya Bremer into being someone that works with him in the museum. It's based on his story but it it is a fictional account. So the the the research has to drive instilling a sense of place, deepening character or driving plot. So if if it's not doing anything like along those lines or deepening the theme, then really you just have to cut it out. But I tend to overwrite it and then I you know edit, edit, edit, edit. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (12:47)
Mmm. And I just wanted to ask a practical question in terms of organizing research and collecting research. because you know that's the other thing you it is a historical novel and you do veer off, but then you kind of find yourself having to backtrack sometimes certain things and no, what why did I do that? so what are your practical tips around that?
Elisabeth Storrs (13:08)
Yeah, so I I love Scrivener. I write in Scrivener and Scrivener you can set up different folders with the different topics and and then I will put information into there. and I Evernote is another one that I use to actually keep all the the links of the you know, like 'cause I you find a lot of links. In fact, I I joke because I I'm writing about a him research institute the Ananeba and it was very dark. It was a you know this this is a very dark Nazi dogma. So I kind of say if the AGIO ever looked at my the search history they think I was a neo Nazi. But yes, I use Evernote to to keep all of the doc you know documents together. You can tag that so that when you want to search again, you know, y it comes up. You can also search within Scrivener as well. But once I have the research, I start I'm quite disciplined, I guess it's my lawyer background. I I in Scrivener I I set out kind of an outline of the chapters and then I ha I have a a a document that's the the writing, but I also have a document which is the key salient points of that history that I want to bring into that chapter. So I keep synthesizing things down so that once you get to the writing you know I only want to talk about those particular research points.
Amra Pajalic (14:28)
Mm, yeah, I did for my PhD, my first my novel Is a historical novel and I use Scrivener too, so invaluable for saving things and for creating all of those things. And then for me, I struggled with the story because it was the first time I was writing a historical novel and overwrote because I wanted to include every single, you know, historical facet I had found and was like, how do I put this in? And
Elisabeth Storrs (14:57)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (14:58)
that's the difficult thing. You do have to kind of go back to what is the story. story and what is that you know scaffold that you're wanting to have and then what needs to go in there because you can't include everything there's so much fascinating research.
Elisabeth Storrs (15:10)
No, you can't.
Amra Pajalic (15:13)
So Fables and Lies took ten years to reach readers. What kept this alive through the decade for you?
Elisabeth Storrs (15:19)
Yes, so now it took another ten years to write th this, and That's because I mean similarly I was in the sandwich generation looking after elderly parents and and children when I first wrote The Wedding Shroud. by the time I got I'm not I'm not much older now, but I then had to look after my mother in law who had dementia, and so I ha kind of hit this sa sandwich again where I had work. I was running historical novel society Australasia and we had a I don't want to go into it but there was a series of of family cris you know tragedies so yeah I I it was take took me away from writing as much as I wanted to and researching. researching also World War II. I went moved from moved from Rome all the way to World War II and yeah so there was a lot to to get in terms of understanding getting my head around World War II. So that's why it took that's why it took so long. and then it you know, and then it takes like it took take eight years to kind of finish it, but another two years to get it pu you know, out to agents and published and it's people don't realise it can take up to two years to then actually get onto the page. yeah, so but what drove me? Passion, absolute passion, and escapism. I mean, I've just writing is my escape from all of those pressures of of everyday life. So that's what kept driving me.
Amra Pajalic (16:41)
the thing when we've been doing this for a few decades, like I'm forty-nine, it's been three decades, you go through all of these different challenges in life and different time frames in life and sometimes you can write quicker, sometimes slower depending on what's going on. But the most important thing is you just keep pursuing it. You
Elisabeth Storrs (17:01)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (17:02)
you don't let it go. You you have to hold on to that passion and hold on to that joy and and that escape it provides, especially when we are going through those very hard times and I've done exactly the same as you I've had those, you know, both the sandwich phases of life with children
Elisabeth Storrs (17:18)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (17:21)
and with my parents. so was it hard to find a publisher willing to take on World War Two fiction, given how crowded the genre has become?
Elisabeth Storrs (17:30)
It was very difficult. And it was also frustrating because when I started writing it, World War II was like the trend. Like you know, there was just complete World War II, you know, mania almost. So by the time I finished this and started trying to sell it, World War II I was c I was told was over. So yeah, I had to keep persisting and I f finally found it. both an agent and a and a publisher that just looked at the story. And my my my World War Two story is not like any other you know, like I've had descriptions they said they've never read a novel like it about World War Two because I'm not writing about big battles, I'm not writing about a resistance story, I'm not writing about a Holocaust story, although I am writing about how the Nazis, their their psyche, their psychopathy led to to the the genocide. but I'm writing it f from a woman's perspective, it's the fragile walls of daily life that I'm writing it from. and I think that's why it's it's different. Now now that people are starting to read it, they're kind of going, this I've never read a World War II book like like this because it just g gives everybody a different viewpoint, a a better understanding of what the kn Nazi ideology was based on. and so that that was where Himmler's Himmler's had a research institute called the Aneneba and it actually had quite a few reputable prehistorians and scientists in it. because a lot of the academics at their time made a Faustian bargain. To survive. and allow their work to continue in the Nazi regime. some of them were, you know, threatened. My Dr. Ungsacht, you know, he he was very threatened. and also his museum was. And so he he turned to the Einerbecause Himmler loved prehistory and he was running this prehistory museum. So he got patronage. But there were very, very evil scientists also within the Ananeba and they propagated racial theory based on based on st bizarre ideas including Atlantis and how the yes so Himmler sent a expedition to Tibet to find evidence of Proto-Aryans who had survived Atlantis. And and the theory was that those Proto Aryans that survived, they then spread across the world, seeding all great civilizations. but they ended up interbreeding with and sorry this is Nazi vocab vocabulary, you know, base races, you know, who corrupted them and you know, so that's why you didn't see Aryans in across the entire world. So that was w one of their theories. And the other thing that that they did with archaeology is they warped it, they twisted it to say that the Indo Aryans, which we now call Indo Europeans, they originated in Germany and Denmark and again
Amra Pajalic (20:35)
Mm-hmm.
Elisabeth Storrs (20:36)
spread across through Europe. So ultimately their argument was it was an ancestral homecoming for them to t take over Eastern Europe because origin you know that that's where the original Indo Aryans settled. So
Amra Pajalic (20:52)
I know. That it's it's fascinating when you look at because I I studied a subject called race politics at university and you know, it was examining a lot of these and when you look at it all it's just basically justifications for theories
Elisabeth Storrs (21:05)
yes.
Amra Pajalic (21:06)
that are just and and so they have to get quite bizarre and and outlandish in order to sell it. It's all about selling it.
Elisabeth Storrs (21:14)
Yes. And they sold it to many of the German people.
Amra Pajalic (21:19)
No.
Elisabeth Storrs (21:20)
who took up the ideology. But I mean, I very much spent a long time looking at whether the German people were victims or perpetrators. And I came to the conclusion that you can't, you know, you you can't treat them as a monolith. You know, there there's millions of people there with different motivations and and also experience. and but there was an underlying you know, entrenched anti Semitism in across Germany and across the all all the world. America was very anti Semitic at that time. and they were also anti Slav. They were it's
Amra Pajalic (21:54)
Yes. Which I know 'cause I'm Bosnian. And you know, mum my husband's father ended up in a no grandfather ended up in a camp. because not in a camp but in a like he was taken as a prisoner of war and then there was also that whole thing of the Slavs.
Elisabeth Storrs (22:11)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (22:12)
We are we are the the terrible. Yeah. Mm.
Elisabeth Storrs (22:14)
You y you were the sorry, they called them untermension, the under the subhumans, you know people of colour, Slavs, Jews, travelers, you know, Romani.
Amra Pajalic (22:25)
Mm.
Elisabeth Storrs (22:26)
and they c they they murdered twenty million Slavs. Twenty million slabs. It it
Amra Pajalic (22:31)
Mm. Mm.
Elisabeth Storrs (22:34)
it was horrendous. So
Amra Pajalic (22:36)
Mm.
Elisabeth Storrs (22:37)
and that was based on this prehistory that basically said the Aryan race were superior and And also that they were entitled to take back the slabs
Amra Pajalic (22:48)
Mm.
Elisabeth Storrs (22:48)
of land that they originally I mean this is centuries, like thousands of years before, had settled in.
Amra Pajalic (22:53)
Yeah. Because
Elisabeth Storrs (22:55)
And you know, the irony is that they have now established that the Indo Europeans originated in Ukraine.
Amra Pajalic (23:02)
Yes. because there's this thing about, you know, Bosnians were from the Caucasus and originally like yeah,
Elisabeth Storrs (23:06)
Mm focus. Yes.
Amra Pajalic (23:08)
the migration pattern and the way it went out
Elisabeth Storrs (23:10)
Hm, yes.
Amra Pajalic (23:11)
and and that's why a lot of Bosnians pale blue eye blue eyes or green eyes like you know, have that because that's where the ri originate w we originated from.
Elisabeth Storrs (23:22)
Yes. Yes. Well, yes, that's right. And
Amra Pajalic (23:27)
I wonder if it was that, I'm just gonna do a bit of psychoanalysis here, if it was that threat of, you know. but yeah, it's I don't know, those theories are are really when you look at them and you look at the way that they try and justify, even the fact that, you know, when when slavery in America were going out of fashion, that's when they started introducing eugenics to dehumanize
Elisabeth Storrs (23:46)
yeah.
Amra Pajalic (23:47)
the African American population to justify what they were doing. So it's just that whole psychology. even when I'm my thesis on Looking at genocide in, you know, what was Yugoslavia. And it was, you know, psychoanalytic theory that was being used in the Serb Republic by psychiatrists to sell this, you know, Serb nationhood and this needing to clean the Turks, which is what they called Bosnian Muslims. And so it's quite I don't know, it's quite
Elisabeth Storrs (24:19)
Well it's it's ha it ha it's happening today. It's it ha it's
Amra Pajalic (24:22)
It's happening today.
Elisabeth Storrs (24:23)
it's happened into modern times. replacement theory, you know, the whole idea that this is destroying culture. The the Nazis said that the Aryans were creators of culture and the you know, the subhumans, it's just disgusting, were the destroyers of culture. But that replacement theory is is live and kicking at the moment across the world. And so I I was kind of very inspired by Primo Levy, who was a
Amra Pajalic (24:49)
Mm-hmm.
Elisabeth Storrs (24:50)
Jew that survived the camps. And he has said, you know, it happened before and it you know it it will happen again and it can happen anywhere. And you know when understanding is impossible, you know, knowing is imperative. So we really do need to understand that this is happening in the world today as well.
Amra Pajalic (25:12)
Absolutely. And you know, we're talking about learning history and history not repeating and yet it keeps repeating and
Elisabeth Storrs (25:20)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (25:20)
yeah genocides keep happening and and being justified on these superiority theories? It's quite heartbreaking. I just wanted to go back a little bit and talk about, you know, in terms of the publishing journey that you had and the fact that it was difficult because, you know, World War Two as a genre or as a area is is done for. What advice would you have for any writers who are working on that area in terms of seeking publication.
Elisabeth Storrs (25:50)
Well it might come back. I mean I s I I didn't write to a trend. I didn't r start writing that book because I I saw World War Two as an opportunity. I I I just I just write based on my passion. So I wouldn't necessarily I mean I found a publisher. I found a publisher. And yeah, so You never know whether one of the agents said, you know, could come back back again because there's just so many stories arising from it. And I just noticed there's on the SBS or there's a Tom Hanks documentary about World War Two. I don't think it ever goes away, really. And when you look on Amazon, there's a whole subcategory that's World War Two and and I I I think there's still a lot of readers out there that that will want it. So and you can always self publish.
Amra Pajalic (26:38)
Yes, which is what I'm doing now. I was traditionally published, and you know, undertook that journey and and was very fortunate to have the apprenticeship I had into the publishing industry. And now I've reached a point where I just want complete control. And
Elisabeth Storrs (26:53)
Yes, yeah, well.
Amra Pajalic (26:56)
just the joy. So I think what in a sense if I can paraphrase If you are writing historical fiction and we're gonna you know talk about World War II specifically right now, do the story that you want to do. you know, keep that passion alive and don't look at trends because you don't know one how long it's gonna take, two what
Elisabeth Storrs (27:14)
Yeah, perfectly.
Amra Pajalic (27:15)
is happening in the publishing industry. It's always waxing and waning.
Elisabeth Storrs (27:18)
definitely. And at the moment they're they're looking at, you know, romanticy and you know, they they publishing industry fixate on y you know, once there's some success in one thing then they all jump on. But it's all v very much from the rear vision. So I've had I I have I started off being published by an Australian publisher, that went you know, the the imprint there, fiction imprint went to the wall. So I then self published my wedding shroud i and the golden dice and You know, I've I found a it was in what I called the gold indie gold rush. It was there was a time when Amazon was very, very kind to indie authors and you could you know, you could sell a lot of books, which I I did. and that as you say, it was amazing the control you had and the ability you know, the the dexterity that you and the flexibility and but I was then picked up by Lake Union, which is a huge Amazon publishing imprint and that just rocketed these books and then then they commissioned me to write a the third book called a Juno but they really understood they really understood the power of the digital book the e book whereas more traditional publishers are so fixated on the paperback. And Lake Union also understood the backlist. So, yeah, so that's why I think it was successful because they they just understood that you you don't just put the book into the into the cellar of you know lost stories or at Pult. They they they really try and sell the e books. so yeah, so my success has a a lot of it has been digital books. and I've I've sold tens of thousands of them. So I really yeah Try and try and not concentrate too much on the paperback. The paperback has a shelf life of about six weeks or twelve weeks in a bookshop. They're they're on razor thin margins, they you know, they don't have enough shelf space and if you don't get picked up straight away, then your publisher won't give you any marketing dollars. so yeah, it's Yeah, yeah. Did digital books to me and people think, it's terrible, you know, paperbacks well you can still buy a paperback, but yeah, you've got your backlist. It's there forever.
Amra Pajalic (29:41)
Yes, and did you with this publisher that published Fable and and the book about Freya, Fable and Lies, did you split the rights where you just gave them paper back or they've also got the digital
Elisabeth Storrs (29:51)
No, they've they've got digital and paperback, but then I have a deal with Bolinda audio and they created the audiobook.
Amra Pajalic (29:58)
Okay, good.
Elisabeth Storrs (29:58)
So it's it's available in all in all formats, but I've got two publishers doing it. so I found
Amra Pajalic (30:02)
Yeah.
Elisabeth Storrs (30:03)
two publishers that were interested in World War Two. So you know, you yeah, you but I'm I'm very obstinate and I persevere a lot and so
Amra Pajalic (30:11)
Yes.
Elisabeth Storrs (30:12)
I just kept on going and going. I didn't give up trying to get it out there. But yeah.
Amra Pajalic (30:17)
That's and that's another thing that I'll really point out for writers because I was the same my memoir I had an agent at that time and the agent submitted to the big five and she was done and I wasn't and so I took it over and I submitted and I got a traditional publishing deal and then got shortlisted for the biography prize, which was lovely because
Elisabeth Storrs (30:40)
Fantastic.
Amra Pajalic (30:41)
that shortlist came with a cash attached to it, so that was really lovely.
Elisabeth Storrs (30:44)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (30:46)
But you know, like there really it is persistence, you do have to kind of be obstinate and and have that belief and kind of just keep trying.
Elisabeth Storrs (30:56)
Yes, yeah. Bis persistence, patience, practice, passion, all the peas. Perspiration.
Amra Pajalic (31:02)
All the piece. I love it. I'm gonna come up with something with that. That's brilliant. This is gonna be a clip for the social media, I can tell you that right now. yeah, because and and also just to go back to what you were talking about, when we're talking about the way that traditional publishers treat e-books, is they price them pretty much at the same price point as
Elisabeth Storrs (31:18)
Yes, yes.
Amra Pajalic (31:20)
a paperback because they're wanting to force readers
Elisabeth Storrs (31:23)
Thank you.
Amra Pajalic (31:24)
to choose to buy the paperback instead of the digital book.
Elisabeth Storrs (31:28)
Exactly. That's exactly right.
Amra Pajalic (31:30)
And when we look at our royalty statements from traditional publishers, we have paperback sold and then we have like three e-books sold.
Elisabeth Storrs (31:38)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (31:39)
And that really disadvantages us long term because once it's out of the bookstores, it's not available anywhere, and then the e-book is not being picked up.
Elisabeth Storrs (31:49)
Yes. And in fact the backlist is so im important now. My I have now got another publisher that approached me to buy out Lake Union's digital rights just because all they all they publish are bac backlists.
Amra Pajalic (32:02)
Yes.
Elisabeth Storrs (32:02)
So because they that they're and it's yeah, only digital and
Amra Pajalic (32:07)
Mm.
Elisabeth Storrs (32:07)
the backlist. Alison Stewart, I think you you interviewed her. She she was picked up, this was DP
Amra Pajalic (32:10)
Yes, I interviewed her.
Elisabeth Storrs (32:13)
publishing, it was picked up because some of these digital publishers are very savvy and and understand yeah, that that you can market them ultimately forever.
Amra Pajalic (32:25)
Yes. And also for us it's a boon because we get a higher percentage point of the digital sales versus with the paperback, the way that the price points work.
Elisabeth Storrs (32:34)
Mm.
Amra Pajalic (32:35)
In terms of we get ten percent, bookstores get, you know, forty percent I think, and then, you know, like it just the percentages keep going, in
Elisabeth Storrs (32:42)
Yes, yes.
Amra Pajalic (32:44)
terms of the way that it's all being split, so yeah it's it's a very different ecosystem
Elisabeth Storrs (32:50)
Hm.
Amra Pajalic (32:50)
and and very different in terms of what we have the ability to do. So I wanted to talk a little bit about the fact that you co-founded the Historical Novel Society, Australasia and the ARA Historical Novel Prize. And these are the now the richest literary prize of this kind in the region. What gap were you trying to fill when you started that?
Elisabeth Storrs (33:14)
Well the historical novel society, there is a a one in the UK, like the main main one, and they have an also in a U a US one which is even bigger than the UK. and the Richard Lee who set it up in the UK approached me and said, Well we want a presence, you know, in in Australia in in Australia. And so we we we're kind of a loosely affiliated. We're not we're not legally under their their umbrella but they really wanted to you know spread read the news about historical fiction down here because they they run conferences. So we started to do the biennial conferences. And then we we really want to promote historical fiction and the genre. the prize came along because of very, very generous philanthropist, Ed Fetterman from the ARA group, he was a history knight and he has always wanted to promote historical fiction in a prize. And we really wanted to elevate the genre because there's this there was this kind of other literary prizes it's like historical fiction they kind of look down on it. But when when you look at s Miles Franklin, there's so many that are actual historical fiction novels starting with Tom Ceneely and Schindler's Ark. and then we've got Richard Flanagan, you know, that narrowed narrowed road to the deep north. So
Amra Pajalic (34:33)
Beautiful.
Elisabeth Storrs (34:34)
great Kate Kate Grenville with like there's so many,
Amra Pajalic (34:37)
A secret river.
Elisabeth Storrs (34:38)
yes, that we wanted them to be recognized as historical fiction and not necessarily literary fiction. And so that That was our passion. I'm I work with a small volunteer committee and we're all i we're all historical novelists and we're really committed to to getting the message out there bec because I think there's a lot of people that love historical fiction.
Amra Pajalic (35:00)
And so that's a great opportunity for any historical writers to join that association and 'cause you do workshops also, you do
Elisabeth Storrs (35:08)
Yes. And but it's for readers it's for readers and writers. Like it's it's we welcome everybody. so Yes, so it it's you can join us. it's mainly our Facebook group. We've got a n newsletter that you can join. So if you want to look at the Historical Novel Society of Australasia, just go to www.historical novel dot org dot au and you'll find out all about us. So
Amra Pajalic (35:32)
Wonderful. The really important thing when you are, you know, to any emerging writers, whatever genre you are writing in, it's really important to find any associations or organizations or groups that are working with it because it's that opportunity to network, to learn, to connect,
Elisabeth Storrs (35:49)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (35:50)
but then also you know to write and and submit books for prizes, which brings me to the question, does this prize accept self-published authors? Yeah.
Elisabeth Storrs (36:00)
Yes. Yes, we we're a broadchurch. Yes, we do. we we we believe that there can be very, very talented self published authors that just have not been able to find a home in the traditional publishing landscape and We we run it with it's a hundred and fifty five thousand dollars overall. We've got two categories, adult and cYA. and in the CYA we had a shortlister who was a self published author. So yes. Yes, we we we do.
Amra Pajalic (36:31)
And I'm I'm lo I love hearing that 'cause there are still some prizes that refuse to allow self published authors and
Elisabeth Storrs (36:37)
Yes, yeah.
Amra Pajalic (36:39)
it's really disappointing because my theory and my you know, motto is that these days I think that the only viable option of of authors actually making a living from their writing is being self published and having that control, because as you said for the ebooks and stuff, that i if you are just Australian published, being able to earn a viable income is really
Elisabeth Storrs (37:05)
Difficult. Hmm. Advances, yep. And then wealth is yep. It's
Amra Pajalic (37:05)
you know, yeah, almost impossible really. You just get little tiny you know yeah, yeah, or and then it's like the the royalties are just like psh gone
Elisabeth Storrs (37:16)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (37:17)
gone. and I just wanted to also clarify in terms of what is historical fiction, what is the definition and the period that you accept
Elisabeth Storrs (37:26)
So so for the prize, it's it has various subgenres, so you can be historical fantasy, crime, romance, alternate history, etc. or straight, I guess you call it straight historical thing, not quite sure. but the definition w is that it has to be set more than fif fifty years in the past and so that's in the seventies and that more than fifty percent of the narrative must be set in the past. So there are parallel, what I call parallel or braided novels which are very very popular but you ha you have to have the majority of of it set It's now seventy six before nineteen seventy six. we have to do that because prizes, you know, it's you just have to have something concrete like that in order to it it it just we we do acknowledge that, you know, the the past there are books written in the nineteen nineties which now you would probably call historical fiction, which are is really scary because, you know, I I'm a living source for that, you know. So
Amra Pajalic (38:32)
Me too.
Elisabeth Storrs (38:33)
Yes. So yeah, a bit confronting. But yeah, so so th there's not a hard and fast rule I would call in terms of time period for just generally, but certainly for the prize, it's fifty years or more in the past. And yes, so that's the definition, but we have all the sub subgenres as well.
Amra Pajalic (38:53)
Hmm, well, really important for any writers who are working in this genre to check that out. now a little bit of a cheeky question to, you know, continue that. What do judges look for in a submission when they're reading the prize? What do you, through your experience think separates a good historical novel from a great one?
Elisabeth Storrs (39:13)
Well, the criteria that the judges look at is excellence in writing, excellence in storytelling, depth of research, but also commerciality, you know, like that it's a a book that readers want to read. and so th those are the criteria, so that's what they're they're looking at. the the weightings we used to have a a bigger weighting towards excellence in writing, but now we've actually made them all equal across the board so they're judging it in in that way so Don't forget to include a story. You know, the storytelling is very important. Writing beautifully is not necessarily going to get you the prize, although I have to say all the prize winners have been beautifully written, you know, as well. But yeah, so make sure you hone your skills but also keep your eye on storytelling, compelling storytelling.
Amra Pajalic (40:05)
And that's the thing sometimes, you know, when we're talking about beautiful writing, but it's like, is there a plot? Is there characterization? And and you do kind of need all of those things working together. you're also part of the History Girls blog community. So what has that collective of historical novelists taught you about the genre or given you insight into?
Elisabeth Storrs (40:26)
Well that that is a a group that's English, American, Australian. it we're set up to write a blog post about history. I you only have we we do it sorry, something is published every Friday. but the obligation is I write twice a year a a article about it. And the beauty of it is that it's it's a community, it's a network, it's like if if someone's having a bit of a problem, then you can just go to them and talk to them and everybody's either either had the same experience or yeah, it's it's just a really good community and it's you know, they they're high quality. They they're very I mean they're very prestigious. Elizabeth Chadwick is one of them. So Yes, so you you learn from them as well, the the very successful ones.
Amra Pajalic (41:14)
so one of the things that I'm hearing is that, you know, we write and we write by ourselves and we have to keep finding that time, but it is also really important to create that community and look for and look for opportunities for collaboration and you know, give back in a sense, like you know, where you're giving but you're also getting in terms of the community and connections you're making.
Elisabeth Storrs (41:34)
Yeah. I I very b much believe in karma. So I
Amra Pajalic (41:37)
Yeah.
Elisabeth Storrs (41:38)
think generosity of spirit to all writers, you know, will bring you also benefits. yeah. So that's why the Historical Novel Society Australasia, you know, it's worth going and having a look at. one of the things we've kind of call it a festival now, it's History Unbound festival, is that like everybody has a fantastic time. You were at you were at our last one at Parramatta, you know, you presented. but I think why it's a friendly event is that everyone there is interested in history. So if you're meeting someone over a cup of tea, you just ask, what's your favorite piece of history, your era? And suddenly you can strike up a conversation. so, yeah, we've always had happy events. And people
Amra Pajalic (42:20)
Yeah.
Elisabeth Storrs (42:21)
then network, you know, they can network.
Amra Pajalic (42:23)
Yeah, so it's so important to kind of go and like yeah, I had a great time and I was just like talking to people and I had this moment where was like, people are asking me questions. my gosh, am I do I have something to say? 'Cause you have that imposter syndrome every time you step into a new you know new
Elisabeth Storrs (42:37)
Yes, yeah.
Amra Pajalic (42:39)
new identity and it's like, ooh, ooh, this is a big one. yeah, so that's wonderful. So where can we find you?
Elisabeth Storrs (42:46)
So just to be confusing, my name, I'm Elisabeth Storrs, but I'm Elisabeth Storrs with an S, not a Z, and I'm Storrs S T O R R S. So you can find me at www.elisabethstorrs.com. But I'm also on Instagram and Facebook. and still on Twitter but or X but yeah, mainly Ist Instagram and Facebook. at at Elisabeth Storrs Author.
Amra Pajalic (43:12)
Lovely. Well thank you so much, Elisabeth, for this conversation and it's given me a lot of food for thought in terms of collaboration and community.
Elisabeth Storrs (43:21)
I'm glad, yeah. I really enjoyed chatting to you today. Thank you.
Amra Pajalic (43:25)
Thank you.