Resilience Runs in Our Ink: A Conversation with Demet Divaroren
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You can listen above or on your favourite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
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You can listen above or on your favourite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
Show notes
Two award-winning authors discuss the transformative journey from rejection to publication and how fantasy fiction creates space to process real-world challenges.
• Demet shares her decade-long journey to publication through "process, perspective, perseverance, and practice"
• Co-editing "Growing Up Muslim in Australia" helped transform Demet's writing style
• "Blood Moon Bride" explores themes of oppression and resistance through fantasy
• Writing fantasy provided therapeutic distance during postpartum anxiety
• Storytelling carries inheritances through generations, echoing ancestral experiences
• Each generation of women in Demet's family pushed boundaries for the next
• The importance of raising children with intentional language around gender roles
• Perseverance as the key difference between published and unpublished writers
• Self-belief as the foundation for creative success
• We are "always coming of age" throughout our lives, constantly evolving
If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe and follow for more insights, stories, and inspiration. From my armchair to yours, remember every story begins with a single word.
• Demet shares her decade-long journey to publication through "process, perspective, perseverance, and practice"
• Co-editing "Growing Up Muslim in Australia" helped transform Demet's writing style
• "Blood Moon Bride" explores themes of oppression and resistance through fantasy
• Writing fantasy provided therapeutic distance during postpartum anxiety
• Storytelling carries inheritances through generations, echoing ancestral experiences
• Each generation of women in Demet's family pushed boundaries for the next
• The importance of raising children with intentional language around gender roles
• Perseverance as the key difference between published and unpublished writers
• Self-belief as the foundation for creative success
• We are "always coming of age" throughout our lives, constantly evolving
If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe and follow for more insights, stories, and inspiration. From my armchair to yours, remember every story begins with a single word.
Connect with Demet Divaroren
Demet Divaroren is the award winning author of Living on Hope Street and the co-editor of CBCA shortlisted anthology Growing up Muslim in Australia. She was born in her mother’s childhood home in Adana, Turkey. Demet migrated to Australia with her family when she was six months old and grew up on the outskirts of Melbourne. Her language was a fusion of English and Turkish words, a phonetic, random mix of strong vowels and sneaky silent letters.
Today, Demet’s unique voice shapes her stories, which explore multiculturalism, cross cultural relationships, racism, injustice, gender based oppression, and what it means to be human.
Blood Moon Bride is her second novel.
Website: https://www.demetdivaroren.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/demetdivaroren/
Today, Demet’s unique voice shapes her stories, which explore multiculturalism, cross cultural relationships, racism, injustice, gender based oppression, and what it means to be human.
Blood Moon Bride is her second novel.
Website: https://www.demetdivaroren.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/demetdivaroren/
Transcript of episode
Amra Pajalic [00:00:00]:
Thank you for tuning in to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe and follow for more insights, stories and inspiration from my armchair to yours. Remember, every story begins with a single word. Welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. Today I'm here with Demet Diva Roran. We've actually been friends for a long time and you are an award winning author of Living on Hope Street. You're the co editor of Growing Up Muslim in Australia, which is an anthology we co edited together. You were born in your mother's childhood home in Adana, Turkey, migrated to Australia with your family when you were six months old, grew up on the outskirts of Melbourne. I love this sentence. Her language was a fusion of English and Turkish words, a phonetic random mix of strong vowels and sneaky silent letters. Today, Demet's unique voice shapes her stories which explore multiculturalism, cross cultural relationships, racism, injustice, gender based oppression and what it means to be human. And Blood Moon Bride, which is here we've put it on display, is her.
Demet Divaroren [00:01:18]:
Second novel alongside great company there.
Amra Pajalic [00:01:21]:
That's right, Time Kneels Between Mountains. And so we're here to talk about Blood Moon Bride, but let's just talk generally about writing. But welcome to Demet. Thank you so much for coming.
Demet Divaroren [00:01:33]:
Thanks for having me, Amra.
Amra Pajalic [00:01:34]:
I know we've had so busy, so many things going on, but we made it.
Demet Divaroren [00:01:40]:
Yes, we have. Finally. We've made it.
Amra Pajalic [00:01:43]:
So I wanted to start sort of a little bit more with the beginning of your writing career because you wrote several novels before Living on Hope street and there were rejections that lasted over a decade. So what internal shift finally unlocked publication process, perspective, perseverance, I think.
Demet Divaroren [00:02:07]:
And practice, practice, practice, practice, practice. I think those early novels. So Odate, which was shortlisted for the Vocal Award way back when I was eligible.
Amra Pajalic [00:02:22]:
Yes, that's right.
Demet Divaroren [00:02:28]:
And I was still studying at VU, Professional Writing and Editing Diploma. So it was, it was a practice novel and I'm so glad that it didn't end up being published because it was very, it was undercooked and we had a lot of heart. It was, you know, it's a beautiful story and many of the themes that I was exploring ended up in Living on Hope street and also to an extent in Blood Wing Bride. So definitely perseverance. I just wouldn't give up. So it was like rejection, rejection, rejection for what I ate after. You know, it was celebrated in such a beautiful way with the short listing. And then I wrote Road to Santa Fe, which I barely remember now, but again, I always seem to be exploring those really dark themes, intense themes, which is not necessarily a bad thing. It's not a bad thing. It's, you know, art and writing, it's all a reflection of. Of real life. So. So, yeah, perseverance after that, that was rejected, I don't know, a thousand times. And then along came growing up Muslim in Australia. Now, this was the. The point where my. My perspective changed a little bit because of what. What I mean by that is perspective in terms of craft. Yes. So we edited thousands and thousands and thousands of words and we were mining all these beautiful stories about your identity, about crushing, you know, those stereotypes and, you know, just celebrating our shared humanity, I guess. So thousands and thousands. We had to kind of sift through and find the threads of these beautiful stories. And I think after that two year process, Living on Hope street is told from seven different perspectives. And it kind of. They're really short, sharp scenes. So I think this book really helped me gain access to a new style of short, sharp sort of writing that. Yeah. That really gave birth, in a way, to Hope Street.
Amra Pajalic [00:04:59]:
I think for me also, because I went on and wrote my memoir after this and I really feel that stepping into the shoes of being an editor and really. Because there were some pieces we edited so much.
Demet Divaroren [00:05:12]:
Absolutely.
Amra Pajalic [00:05:13]:
And when we. Because I've been using this quite a bit in the classroom, we kind of developed a style in terms of how we edited. And I can see how that style influenced me with my memoir and influenced you in terms of, you know, opening with an anecdote and the action and stuff.
Demet Divaroren [00:05:31]:
Would. Would it be fair to say, when we say edited, we absolutely respected the story. And I'm talking purely, like, words. Like, there was a story that was 10,000 words and we had to kind of condense to about 3,000.
Amra Pajalic [00:05:49]:
Yeah.
Demet Divaroren [00:05:49]:
So, yeah, I think that's an important.
Amra Pajalic [00:05:53]:
Yes. We were working with, you know, people who are at different stages of their writing journey, and there were some lessons for us along the way.
Demet Divaroren [00:06:04]:
100.
Amra Pajalic [00:06:05]:
Yeah. But I. I don't know. It was a fascinating process and I really feel like the apprenticeship that it gave me. Yeah, like, it really changed and once I opened my eyes, like, it almost feels like you opened your eyes to the editing part of it. And. And now we've got it when we write, there's that. That's always there. Yeah. Yeah. So that's great. So. So in a sense, I think you've answered the second question. So Living on Hope street is a raw contemporary realism because it's dealing with the seven characters. I'm actually sorry I forgot to bring it because what I love about that book is the COVID has got the silhouettes of all of the characters and then when you're reading it, each character's got their name and their silhouet so that you know whose point of view it is. And it's a beautiful novel because it's the different perspectives and seeing the stories from the different perspectives and really telling the story of Australia, of all the different multiculturalism of Australia.
Demet Divaroren [00:07:08]:
Yeah, yeah, sure.
Amra Pajalic [00:07:09]:
I love that about it. Can you tell us about Blood Moon Bride? Give me my, give me your pitch. What's your elevator pitch you've been practicing?
Demet Divaroren [00:07:17]:
Emra. I don't do elevated pictures because, like they last 15 minutes. My elevator sessions are quite long. I kind of get stuck in them. You're just like.
Amra Pajalic [00:07:31]:
And then, and then I try so.
Demet Divaroren [00:07:34]:
Hard, like when I give a really condensed pitch, then I, you know, I really omit some key, very key things. And actually.
Amra Pajalic [00:07:45]:
Yeah, all right, give me the 15.
Demet Divaroren [00:07:47]:
Minute pitch by Kate. So Blood Moon Bride.
Amra Pajalic [00:07:51]:
Blood Moon Bride.
Demet Divaroren [00:07:53]:
It is a story of Rhea. She lives in Menama Valley. And this is a valley that is ruled by quite a ruthless and greedy governor who is in the business of using and abusing people and taking away their rights. It is a world full of, yes, oppression and injustice and, but also love and family in connection to land and connection to self. So Rhea is the governor, Governor Kyra. He sends boys off to war and marries girls off quite young so that they can help the valley and they can breed children. And Rhea and a lot of people are disgusted by this process. And she has a choice. Does she submit to this ruthless system or does she rebel? And spoiler alert, she does rebel. She does fight back. And for her efforts she's sent to the nest, a place to rehabilitate or brainwash valley folk into, you know, submitting to this system. So it is, I know it sounds dark.
Amra Pajalic [00:09:24]:
All dystopia is dark. We love dystopia.
Demet Divaroren [00:09:31]:
The world is a dark place. Can be, yes, is. And I feel like fantasy is a really beautiful way to, to help especially young people come to terms with some of these themes that are very, very real. And it could help them just process and find ways that they can fight back against systems that might be oppressing them or, you know, in the real world or oppressing others. And so I think these are really important themes. And this book came to me at a time when my life Drastically changed. I became a mother, first to Zara and then to River. So I. I wrote many drafts of this story to get to this story. I wrote many drafts of another fantastical sort of novel. And through that I found men in the valley. And then it was just this big, messy, messy journey. But I wouldn't change it for anything. Because for me, writing, especially in those postpartum anxiety days, writing was my. One of the only or one of the best ways, I should say. Though there are other ways, of course. My family grounds me, but just sinking my teeth in my heart and my emotions and the creativity into a project really helped me take a step back from my own anxiety and just channel everything into this world. All of my passions, disappointments, my love, my hope for a better future, for a better world. So it really helped me in so many ways. See elevator pitch? We were stuck in it for about 10 minutes. Sorry.
Amra Pajalic [00:11:34]:
That was beautiful. Because you know what you're talking about. Because we're both very dark writers. We both really explore dark themes. And, you know, we have walked in darkness, but we also walk in light. We are optimistic people who choose to be full of light. But we are aware.
Demet Divaroren [00:11:53]:
Yes. And the light. Thank you for reminding me. See, this is the elevator mention of the things that I forget to say, but you said light. And light is absolutely at the core of this novel.
Amra Pajalic [00:12:04]:
Yes.
Demet Divaroren [00:12:05]:
And I asked the question, what is it that we inherit from our ancestors? How do we carry that inheritance, you know, forward? And I think storytelling, art, song, dance, these are the things that they carry through generations and they echo through generations and they tell a story of, you know, those who came before. And I think there is so much light and also in the world and so much beauty that is just worth fighting for.
Amra Pajalic [00:12:42]:
I think, you know, we read fiction like, you know, for example, I'm now in the crime fiction world. So I read crime fiction to feel that sense of justice and to feel that sense of, you know, resolution. And it's the same with fantasy. We read it because it echoes reality and it echoes what's going on in the real world. But it gives us that sense of resolution, that sense of justice, that sense of, you know, rebelling and standing up for things matters. And so, you know, even though it is fiction, it really holds space and, you know, it is very important. I especially think, you know, young adult fiction when we're writing for 15, 16 year olds, writing for 15, 16 year old selves. You know, that's the thing. We're always sort of writing what we wish we had and the stories that we want young people to read, you know, even though there are so many of us who are adults. And we still love young adult fiction.
Demet Divaroren [00:13:42]:
Yeah, absolutely. It's one of my favorite genres to read still.
Amra Pajalic [00:13:45]:
I don't know. It's just so visceral and so real. And that sense of coming and becoming.
Demet Divaroren [00:13:50]:
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic [00:13:51]:
I mean, we're doing that throughout our lives, you know, the coming and the becoming.
Demet Divaroren [00:13:55]:
Yes, yes. We are always coming of age. I said this the other day. Where was I? School talk. And I said, we. If you. If you guys think that, you know, adults have got it together, you know, like, sure, we may have moments of. Yes. We're so confident in our lives, in our, you know, where we're at, where we're going. But then something will happen and it'll change all that. We have to regroup. So we're always coming of age forever and ever. It's a permanent thing. Our identity is constantly shifting. So it's. I reckon that's very true. We're always. We're always evolving. And I think that's why I'm so drawn to ya.
Amra Pajalic [00:14:41]:
Because it's our first one.
Demet Divaroren [00:14:42]:
It's the first and it's the primary. Yeah. And it sets the tone. Yes, it sets the tone. So for me, in high school, I went through a period where I was just like, defa Demet. Because I was kind of an underachiever. And, you know, that was my average grade. So until about year 10, I just kind of laughed along with my friends.
Amra Pajalic [00:15:03]:
Yeah.
Demet Divaroren [00:15:04]:
Yeah. That's who I am. I fed that narrative, and therefore I became that narrative. So. And it took three words for me to change all that. And I've taken that with me through to adulthood. And even now, the words are, why not me? Yes, why not me? Why can't I get good grades? Why can't I get published? Why not me? It requires a skill that all writers need, that is the ability to, you know, to write, to dig in, to creativity. We've all got that as human beings. So why not me? So, yes, it does. It's a. I reckon, why A. Or our teen years. It does give us the foundation, and some of that does not change.
Amra Pajalic [00:16:08]:
So you discovered early on you at least figured it out in high school. It took me until my early 20s to kind of figure out that I could achieve and that I could do things. Yeah. And it is. So. Yeah, those. Those formative experiences. Experiences were kind of. I think it's because it's so visceral. It's like the strongest ones. But then every decade after that, we're constantly evolving.
Demet Divaroren [00:16:31]:
What held you back? Why 20s?
Amra Pajalic [00:16:34]:
For me, it was the fact because my mum was bipolar and life at home was so chaotic, there was no space at all to figure out me and to focus on me. It was always in reaction to. So it was only when I got married, because I married when I was very young. I was 19. I'm still married to the same person, my husband for 28 years. And it was only because I was married, I was an adult, I had stability, I had space.
Demet Divaroren [00:17:06]:
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic [00:17:06]:
And I had a cheerleader. I never had a cheerleader before that I never had. Because, you know, the thing about bipolar that a lot of people don't get is that it is something that makes people very self involved.
Demet Divaroren [00:17:19]:
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic [00:17:19]:
And so, you know, it wasn't my mum's fault, but she was just incredibly self involved and so there was no space for me. And yeah, like, I think that that was it having that stability to actually kind of be like, oh, what do I want? And what people don't understand. I remember when I was in my early 20s, so many people were like, oh, being an adult, oh my God, paying bills and doing things. This is awesome. Nobody, because, you know, I went to so many different schools, I lived in so many different houses, I was in foster homes. My every day would just implode in a moment. And so for me, being an adult and going, I pick where I live, I pick who I live with, I pick who is in my life. I. I pick where I work, I pick what I do.
Demet Divaroren [00:18:15]:
These were like, you had control over your life. Yes, you were. Yeah, yeah.
Amra Pajalic [00:18:20]:
And so that was the. The big revelation for me. But, you know, we don't stop. We are still constantly evolving y and becoming different people. Not different people, but like, you know, finding different things that we're good at, finding our strengths, realizing what we want to let go of.
Demet Divaroren [00:18:37]:
Yeah, yeah.
Amra Pajalic [00:18:38]:
I just think that young adult thing is, is when it's so visceral.
Demet Divaroren [00:18:41]:
And the important thing is to be able to embrace change.
Amra Pajalic [00:18:45]:
Yes.
Demet Divaroren [00:18:46]:
You know, so whether it's with our writing, being able to actually try new things.
Amra Pajalic [00:18:52]:
Yeah.
Demet Divaroren [00:18:52]:
So you.
Amra Pajalic [00:18:53]:
From contemporary realism to fantasy.
Demet Divaroren [00:18:57]:
Yeah. So that was a big shift. That was a huge shift. And it had to be that way. As I said, I really needed that distance away from reality. I needed that safe space to be able to pour all of these, you know, intense emotions and thoughts and feelings just into this world. So that was really important. But the world building, liberating.
Amra Pajalic [00:19:27]:
Sure.
Demet Divaroren [00:19:27]:
Because then you're not tethered to facts and, you know, the contemporary world has, you know, the rules of contemporary world and bound by cultural rules as well and all of that. So, yes, liberating in. In a really beautiful way, but also, oh, my gosh, so far, it's so hard.
Amra Pajalic [00:19:54]:
The rules, the community, like. Yeah, it's a very complex world building.
Demet Divaroren [00:20:01]:
Yeah, it was. It was very. The. The geography. I've never been good with geography. Like, I teach it.
Amra Pajalic [00:20:09]:
I'm not good at it.
Demet Divaroren [00:20:10]:
And it's like I had to actually think of, you know, where rivers are placed and what's behind here and what's. I. You know, it's good because if you needed a complication, you can just add. You can just build. I don't know. So, yeah, it was fun, but also got to a point where I was like, oh, wow, this is. This is a lot. And where I had to actually, you know, create a map. Me with maps. I can't even draw stick figures. And I had to even. Yeah. With a nap. It was just hard. But wonderful experience. And, yeah, I. I loved it. I really.
Amra Pajalic [00:20:53]:
It's a great novel. And the latest news is it's being made into an audiobook.
Demet Divaroren [00:20:58]:
Yay.
Amra Pajalic [00:20:59]:
We were listening to auditions.
Demet Divaroren [00:21:03]:
Yes. It's so exciting. Yeah. That will be. The Blood Moon Bride audiobook will be published, I believe, early 2026. So that'll be great. It'll be lovely to see it reaching new audiences.
Amra Pajalic [00:21:17]:
And I think for a young adult, you know, I was actually having parent teaching interviews, and I'm like, with students who are EAL students, and the parents always like, what do we do? And I'm like, watch TV with subtitles on them. Listen to audiobooks and have the physical book in front of you because it's learning pronunciation. And I've been looking at some research in terms of people who listen to audiobooks. It does help with the capillary development. It's still as if you are reading it yourself, because there are some silly people who are like, oh, audiobooks. Like, you're not reading. Yes, you are. I've still got pictures in my head.
Demet Divaroren [00:21:59]:
Yeah, well, I. Zara and River. No, Zara and I were listening to snippets of the young adult audiobook just the other day. And she's like, oh, Mum, this doesn't sound like. Like a book. It sounds like. Like acting or, you know, And I said, like the. It's like a play. And she said, yes. And I said, that's the beauty of it. It gives You a totally different experience.
Amra Pajalic [00:22:25]:
And what I love about it is pronunciations.
Demet Divaroren [00:22:27]:
Yes.
Amra Pajalic [00:22:28]:
Cuz especially like with your world, it's a whole, you know, fantasy world that is set and so that like I'm liking how then you'll be. People hear the pronunciations of all this stuff.
Demet Divaroren [00:22:40]:
Do you know? Funny, funny. Funnily enough, I struggled more like when living on Hope street audio was coming out and I had to fill in a form with pronunciations and tips. Now because it's set in multicultural Australia, we've got so many different cultures and names and. And of course, Mrs. Aslan, lots of Turkish kind of words in there and so. Oh my goodness, that was really, really difficult to just write it, like spell it out or just. Yeah. Is it the phonetic. Phonetic, phonetics of it?
Amra Pajalic [00:23:24]:
Yeah. When I was doing my audiobooks, I recorded all of the names and all of the, you know, because of like, they need to hear it, hear it.
Demet Divaroren [00:23:33]:
I. I was spelling it out and I think possibly a few things I did record, but with this one, this is why I was like, nah, the world is universal. Guess what? All the names are universal. And they're, you know, not straightforward. They're still exotic. Sure, I don't like that term, but I, I can't think of a better one at the moment. But still, I wanted a universal feel to this world. It was really, really important to me. I don't. Yeah, I even made it a point not to describe people in terms of, you know, their skin color or any. I was really careful not to add any racial identifiers. It was really important. So in that way, it was a huge shift again from Hope street, you know, which was exploring all of the beauty of culture and, you know, and it was perfect for that book and it was necessary for that book. But for this one I was like, it's fantasy. Human first. That was my motto. People who were reading this book, I want them to be able to recognize their shared humanity with these characters. So for these characters, their humanity had to come first.
Amra Pajalic [00:24:59]:
That's the thing about fantasy, you know, it is set in a different world. Don't, you know, people look differently. And I know that there's been some discussions about fantasy books. That is the joy of it. It is about just taking, you know, creating a different world and within this world. Yes, it has echoes to our world, but it still functions just for the themes in a sense. And the story. Yeah, first, Yeah, I.
Demet Divaroren [00:25:24]:
And yeah, everyone does it differently and who knows what I'll do with the next one? Who knows what the Next one will be just quietly. But anyway, let's see.
Amra Pajalic [00:25:33]:
Well, that's my love. Well, actually, have you started working on that?
Demet Divaroren [00:25:36]:
No. No. Next question, next question.
Amra Pajalic [00:25:39]:
You're still in the throes of publicity for this.
Demet Divaroren [00:25:41]:
I have started something, but I won't.
Amra Pajalic [00:25:42]:
It's too early.
Demet Divaroren [00:25:43]:
Too early.
Amra Pajalic [00:25:44]:
Fair enough. Okay. So I sort of wanted to. You talked a little bit about. Of family and generations and the influence. And you talked about, you know, your grandmother labored immediately after giving birth. Your married, your mother married young. So the stories of resilience. So what. What are the shifts that you see between, you know, like, how is that an inspiration? How is that influence? How is that. Because I see that as an influence in your writing and in the way you're approaching it. But I just wanted you to talk about that.
Demet Divaroren [00:26:20]:
The women in our, you know, the women in our lives and I mentioned, like, those who have come before and the echoes of their experiences and resilience. I always say I come from a long line of resilient women. And yes, storytelling has made me better understand. So when I listen to my grandmother and she talks about her mum and their connection and the lack of opportunities they had to study. But then, you know, like, my great grandmother wanted her daughter to study, but then it was also very afraid of it because, you know, back then in the 50s, in cultures across the world, I think it was, you know, girls studying, I guess they were up against poverty, they were up against, you know, illiterate kind of parents. And my great grandmother was illiterate. Yeah, yeah. And so. But my grandmother learned. So this is through generations. How did these shifts happen? My grandmother learned how to write and read, and I remember exchanging letters with her when I was young. So that was a doorway for us to connect, even in childhood, even though we were thousands of kilometres away in Turkey and Australia. And then, you know, my mum, unfortunately, she's one of eight children. She didn't get a chance to study past primary school. That really became. That was a game changer for her. And it was her golden ticket, I guess, because it opened up the world to her through literature, particularly through fiction. So she was a huge reader. And. And so what she did was, okay, my daughters will study. My daughters will not get married young. They will study. They will be financially stable. They will have lives first, and then they will, you know, choose to get married when they're ready. So complete. So that's like three. Is it three generations, Amra. Because, like, my numerous. Is still really one, two, grandmother, mother. So. So you can see like the. The shifts and the ripple effects of. Yeah. Of. Of change and also legacy and resilience, you know, and. And resistance. How do we. How do we resist these cycles? How do we resist. Yeah, like how to create then change. And. Yeah, all of those kinds of elements are really. And, and, yeah, this book is not autobiographical. It is fantasy. But I, you know, I'm passionate about these topics.
Amra Pajalic [00:29:32]:
You know, we keep coming back to those stories.
Demet Divaroren [00:29:35]:
Come back to these stories that really.
Amra Pajalic [00:29:37]:
Kind of shaped us.
Demet Divaroren [00:29:38]:
Yeah, yeah.
Amra Pajalic [00:29:39]:
And I also think what you're talking about in terms of, you know, each generation. That is such an Australian story that each generation has the opportunity to do better because we kind of stand on the shoulders of the previous generations where they're the ones sacrificing and we do better. And so I talked to That. I talked to Sophia about that because, you know, in a sense, we're in the same boat where it was our parents and we're the second children, now the third. And I'm like, you're going to be a better version of me. You are going to achieve things more than me earlier, better, because they will have the benefit of us being able to translate, you know, the education system, the opportunities. Whereas for me, it was really no networks. I didn't even understand how university worked when I was in high school. I didn't understand so many things. Didn't have any cultural capital that our children have access to because of who we are and the fact that we've, you know, had those things. So, yeah, like, it's just.
Demet Divaroren [00:30:44]:
It's really.
Amra Pajalic [00:30:45]:
It makes you so grateful, but also it gives you a sense of responsibility.
Demet Divaroren [00:30:48]:
Yes.
Amra Pajalic [00:30:49]:
To achieve and to move. There is. There is a little bit of pressure. Do you feel?
Demet Divaroren [00:30:53]:
Yeah, of course. And especially, like, there's a. I think about this a lot. So I have a boy and a girl. And so for me, I think about, oh, my gosh, there's such. There's such pressure for me to even. Not moderate, but just kind of think really seriously about the words that come out of my mouth. So the pressure of raising children is immense, of course. And then the messaging and. And then. And so I raise them. I always say this, I raise them equally. I call them beauties. I don't just reserve beauty for my girl. It's, you're both beautiful, you're amazing, you're creative. But when it comes to gender roles, absolutely, I am over. Like, I'm not overthinking. I'm thinking carefully and intentionally about the words that come out of My mouth, the dishwasher needs to be cleaned. They are both doing it. They are working together. Their life skills, they're not reserved for one or the other.
Amra Pajalic [00:32:05]:
Yes.
Demet Divaroren [00:32:06]:
And that in itself is so much pressure, and there is so much energy that goes into trying to just expose them as much as I absolutely can to a level of, you know, equality. And I think that.
Amra Pajalic [00:32:21]:
Do you feel like that is also because of our background, where we come from?
Demet Divaroren [00:32:27]:
It's because of the world that they're going to. Yeah, it's absolutely about that. Of course, back. Yes, of course. That's part of the world. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic [00:32:36]:
I come from Bosnian culture, which is very gendered, very patriarchal. And, yeah, Turkish culture is.
Demet Divaroren [00:32:42]:
Is like that as well, to a degree. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic [00:32:44]:
Yeah. So women are the ones who are supposed to do all the household chores. So in my household, my joke is, you know, whenever Sophia is like, oh, I'm hungry, I'm like, you've got a father for that. She's like, you know, I. I need something like, you've got a father for that.
Demet Divaroren [00:33:00]:
That's.
Amra Pajalic [00:33:00]:
That's what a father is for. I. I don't do anything in terms of housework and cooking and shopping. He's the one. So that's always my thing. I'm like, that's what men are for. That's his role. So I just flip it completely. And.
Demet Divaroren [00:33:16]:
Yeah. And. And look, of course, like, I'm not denying that our cultures share that. Many, many cultures have that, you know, patriarchal kind of engendered roles and patriarchal societies. I mean, we do live in. But we live in a patriarchal society. And this is, you know, they go out into the playground and they hear things like, oh, girls are weak. Chuck them in the creek. And I just, you know, when I hear that, I hear that from many, many children. Like, we're at. We're at a playground, and people will be like, kids will just be throwing things like that around, and I have to sit and say, okay, let's flip that. You know, like. Or I try and explain and I'll try and make something fun out of it that is. Got nothing to do with, you know, gender. It starts. It starts in the playground, and I just. It's just so fascinating, but also frustrating. And it's just we've got our work cut out for us.
Amra Pajalic [00:34:22]:
But what I'm stuck on is, like, how they always come up with these, like, rhymes.
Demet Divaroren [00:34:26]:
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic [00:34:26]:
That are, like, the worst rhymes. Like the worst racist rhymes, the worst sexist rhymes. But it's always the rhymes where they just, like, you know, they get so catchy.
Demet Divaroren [00:34:34]:
Yeah, they get catchy. But, you know, kids hear it from adults, I think.
Amra Pajalic [00:34:39]:
And the power of language, that brings. The power of language and the power of what we're doing.
Demet Divaroren [00:34:43]:
It is absolutely. Language is everything. Yeah, it is everything.
Amra Pajalic [00:34:48]:
Yeah.
Demet Divaroren [00:34:48]:
You know.
Amra Pajalic [00:34:49]:
Well, I wanted to kind of bring it back to. What advice do you have for people? Writing creativity. Biggest lesson.
Demet Divaroren [00:35:04]:
Biggest lesson. What can I say? Writing creativity.
Amra Pajalic [00:35:10]:
I mean, I think for you, the perseverance story is the one. We've talked about this before where I've said we have both met so many talented writers in our journey and in this path who gave up before, you know, they. They kind of didn't keep pushing through.
Demet Divaroren [00:35:31]:
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic [00:35:31]:
And we're kind of the survivors marathon.
Demet Divaroren [00:35:37]:
It's. It's really, really hard to stay motivated to stay. Yeah. To keep. To. To keep the faith, I guess. And. Yeah. It took 12 years until I published a novel, and I thought I would achieve that in a handful of years. Yeah. And I think so. Persistence, keep practicing, keep making the time for writing. But before you do anything, you have to believe in yourself. Because once you believe in yourself, and I always say this, then it's infectious. Then others start believing in you. You have to believe in yourself and just stick to it. And don't put a time frame on how publication or. Or any kind of reward, because if that's why you're doing it, it's gonna end in heartache. Because even, like, when you do get published and you do, like, win an award or, you know, no matter what, it's an innate thing. So the external things cannot sustain you, because then after that, you still have to sit down and write something and have the stamina and perseverance and motivation to stick at it for, like, five years, for example. You can get it done in two and a half. But really, we've each taken five years.
Amra Pajalic [00:37:08]:
With some of our books.
Demet Divaroren [00:37:10]:
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic [00:37:10]:
Some of them had a really long percolation.
Demet Divaroren [00:37:14]:
Yes.
Amra Pajalic [00:37:14]:
And went through so many.
Demet Divaroren [00:37:15]:
Yes.
Amra Pajalic [00:37:16]:
Incarnations.
Demet Divaroren [00:37:17]:
Yeah. And. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic [00:37:19]:
And that's because we just. We could not let go of them. And.
Demet Divaroren [00:37:23]:
Yeah. You have to maintain that motivation. So no one else is going to do it for you. It's an innate thing that needs to be nurtured. So again, elevator pitch. Right. We've just gone on a big tangent.
Amra Pajalic [00:37:36]:
Hey, that's what we do. This is what we do.
Demet Divaroren [00:37:38]:
It's the best way I can explain it. Yeah. Yeah. Just don't give up if it's something that truly speaks to you. To your soul and your heart, and it just gives you life. Just keep doing it.
Amra Pajalic [00:37:53]:
Hey, trust. Trust in it.
Demet Divaroren [00:37:55]:
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic [00:37:56]:
And that's. That's what your journey has proven where, you know, just like a little choo choo.
Demet Divaroren [00:38:02]:
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic [00:38:03]:
Trying. Thank you so much. It was so good. Usually we have our chats without the camera, so, you know, this time we record it for posterity and.
Demet Divaroren [00:38:13]:
Congratulations, Amra.
Amra Pajalic [00:38:15]:
Thank you.
Demet Divaroren [00:38:16]:
It's a beautiful book. I've started reading it. It's a beautiful, beautiful book. Thank you. Hard read, isn't it? It's a hard read, but it is. It is wonderful. Congratulations.
Amra Pajalic [00:38:31]:
Yes. We know all about the long game, don't we?
Demet Divaroren [00:38:33]:
Don't. Yes.
Amra Pajalic [00:38:34]:
All right, well, thank.
Demet Divaroren [00:38:35]:
Thank you.
Amra Pajalic [00:38:38]:
Thank you for tuning in to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe and follow for more insights, stories, and inspiration. From my armchair to yours. Remember, every story begins with a single word.
Thank you for tuning in to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe and follow for more insights, stories and inspiration from my armchair to yours. Remember, every story begins with a single word. Welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. Today I'm here with Demet Diva Roran. We've actually been friends for a long time and you are an award winning author of Living on Hope Street. You're the co editor of Growing Up Muslim in Australia, which is an anthology we co edited together. You were born in your mother's childhood home in Adana, Turkey, migrated to Australia with your family when you were six months old, grew up on the outskirts of Melbourne. I love this sentence. Her language was a fusion of English and Turkish words, a phonetic random mix of strong vowels and sneaky silent letters. Today, Demet's unique voice shapes her stories which explore multiculturalism, cross cultural relationships, racism, injustice, gender based oppression and what it means to be human. And Blood Moon Bride, which is here we've put it on display, is her.
Demet Divaroren [00:01:18]:
Second novel alongside great company there.
Amra Pajalic [00:01:21]:
That's right, Time Kneels Between Mountains. And so we're here to talk about Blood Moon Bride, but let's just talk generally about writing. But welcome to Demet. Thank you so much for coming.
Demet Divaroren [00:01:33]:
Thanks for having me, Amra.
Amra Pajalic [00:01:34]:
I know we've had so busy, so many things going on, but we made it.
Demet Divaroren [00:01:40]:
Yes, we have. Finally. We've made it.
Amra Pajalic [00:01:43]:
So I wanted to start sort of a little bit more with the beginning of your writing career because you wrote several novels before Living on Hope street and there were rejections that lasted over a decade. So what internal shift finally unlocked publication process, perspective, perseverance, I think.
Demet Divaroren [00:02:07]:
And practice, practice, practice, practice, practice. I think those early novels. So Odate, which was shortlisted for the Vocal Award way back when I was eligible.
Amra Pajalic [00:02:22]:
Yes, that's right.
Demet Divaroren [00:02:28]:
And I was still studying at VU, Professional Writing and Editing Diploma. So it was, it was a practice novel and I'm so glad that it didn't end up being published because it was very, it was undercooked and we had a lot of heart. It was, you know, it's a beautiful story and many of the themes that I was exploring ended up in Living on Hope street and also to an extent in Blood Wing Bride. So definitely perseverance. I just wouldn't give up. So it was like rejection, rejection, rejection for what I ate after. You know, it was celebrated in such a beautiful way with the short listing. And then I wrote Road to Santa Fe, which I barely remember now, but again, I always seem to be exploring those really dark themes, intense themes, which is not necessarily a bad thing. It's not a bad thing. It's, you know, art and writing, it's all a reflection of. Of real life. So. So, yeah, perseverance after that, that was rejected, I don't know, a thousand times. And then along came growing up Muslim in Australia. Now, this was the. The point where my. My perspective changed a little bit because of what. What I mean by that is perspective in terms of craft. Yes. So we edited thousands and thousands and thousands of words and we were mining all these beautiful stories about your identity, about crushing, you know, those stereotypes and, you know, just celebrating our shared humanity, I guess. So thousands and thousands. We had to kind of sift through and find the threads of these beautiful stories. And I think after that two year process, Living on Hope street is told from seven different perspectives. And it kind of. They're really short, sharp scenes. So I think this book really helped me gain access to a new style of short, sharp sort of writing that. Yeah. That really gave birth, in a way, to Hope Street.
Amra Pajalic [00:04:59]:
I think for me also, because I went on and wrote my memoir after this and I really feel that stepping into the shoes of being an editor and really. Because there were some pieces we edited so much.
Demet Divaroren [00:05:12]:
Absolutely.
Amra Pajalic [00:05:13]:
And when we. Because I've been using this quite a bit in the classroom, we kind of developed a style in terms of how we edited. And I can see how that style influenced me with my memoir and influenced you in terms of, you know, opening with an anecdote and the action and stuff.
Demet Divaroren [00:05:31]:
Would. Would it be fair to say, when we say edited, we absolutely respected the story. And I'm talking purely, like, words. Like, there was a story that was 10,000 words and we had to kind of condense to about 3,000.
Amra Pajalic [00:05:49]:
Yeah.
Demet Divaroren [00:05:49]:
So, yeah, I think that's an important.
Amra Pajalic [00:05:53]:
Yes. We were working with, you know, people who are at different stages of their writing journey, and there were some lessons for us along the way.
Demet Divaroren [00:06:04]:
100.
Amra Pajalic [00:06:05]:
Yeah. But I. I don't know. It was a fascinating process and I really feel like the apprenticeship that it gave me. Yeah, like, it really changed and once I opened my eyes, like, it almost feels like you opened your eyes to the editing part of it. And. And now we've got it when we write, there's that. That's always there. Yeah. Yeah. So that's great. So. So in a sense, I think you've answered the second question. So Living on Hope street is a raw contemporary realism because it's dealing with the seven characters. I'm actually sorry I forgot to bring it because what I love about that book is the COVID has got the silhouettes of all of the characters and then when you're reading it, each character's got their name and their silhouet so that you know whose point of view it is. And it's a beautiful novel because it's the different perspectives and seeing the stories from the different perspectives and really telling the story of Australia, of all the different multiculturalism of Australia.
Demet Divaroren [00:07:08]:
Yeah, yeah, sure.
Amra Pajalic [00:07:09]:
I love that about it. Can you tell us about Blood Moon Bride? Give me my, give me your pitch. What's your elevator pitch you've been practicing?
Demet Divaroren [00:07:17]:
Emra. I don't do elevated pictures because, like they last 15 minutes. My elevator sessions are quite long. I kind of get stuck in them. You're just like.
Amra Pajalic [00:07:31]:
And then, and then I try so.
Demet Divaroren [00:07:34]:
Hard, like when I give a really condensed pitch, then I, you know, I really omit some key, very key things. And actually.
Amra Pajalic [00:07:45]:
Yeah, all right, give me the 15.
Demet Divaroren [00:07:47]:
Minute pitch by Kate. So Blood Moon Bride.
Amra Pajalic [00:07:51]:
Blood Moon Bride.
Demet Divaroren [00:07:53]:
It is a story of Rhea. She lives in Menama Valley. And this is a valley that is ruled by quite a ruthless and greedy governor who is in the business of using and abusing people and taking away their rights. It is a world full of, yes, oppression and injustice and, but also love and family in connection to land and connection to self. So Rhea is the governor, Governor Kyra. He sends boys off to war and marries girls off quite young so that they can help the valley and they can breed children. And Rhea and a lot of people are disgusted by this process. And she has a choice. Does she submit to this ruthless system or does she rebel? And spoiler alert, she does rebel. She does fight back. And for her efforts she's sent to the nest, a place to rehabilitate or brainwash valley folk into, you know, submitting to this system. So it is, I know it sounds dark.
Amra Pajalic [00:09:24]:
All dystopia is dark. We love dystopia.
Demet Divaroren [00:09:31]:
The world is a dark place. Can be, yes, is. And I feel like fantasy is a really beautiful way to, to help especially young people come to terms with some of these themes that are very, very real. And it could help them just process and find ways that they can fight back against systems that might be oppressing them or, you know, in the real world or oppressing others. And so I think these are really important themes. And this book came to me at a time when my life Drastically changed. I became a mother, first to Zara and then to River. So I. I wrote many drafts of this story to get to this story. I wrote many drafts of another fantastical sort of novel. And through that I found men in the valley. And then it was just this big, messy, messy journey. But I wouldn't change it for anything. Because for me, writing, especially in those postpartum anxiety days, writing was my. One of the only or one of the best ways, I should say. Though there are other ways, of course. My family grounds me, but just sinking my teeth in my heart and my emotions and the creativity into a project really helped me take a step back from my own anxiety and just channel everything into this world. All of my passions, disappointments, my love, my hope for a better future, for a better world. So it really helped me in so many ways. See elevator pitch? We were stuck in it for about 10 minutes. Sorry.
Amra Pajalic [00:11:34]:
That was beautiful. Because you know what you're talking about. Because we're both very dark writers. We both really explore dark themes. And, you know, we have walked in darkness, but we also walk in light. We are optimistic people who choose to be full of light. But we are aware.
Demet Divaroren [00:11:53]:
Yes. And the light. Thank you for reminding me. See, this is the elevator mention of the things that I forget to say, but you said light. And light is absolutely at the core of this novel.
Amra Pajalic [00:12:04]:
Yes.
Demet Divaroren [00:12:05]:
And I asked the question, what is it that we inherit from our ancestors? How do we carry that inheritance, you know, forward? And I think storytelling, art, song, dance, these are the things that they carry through generations and they echo through generations and they tell a story of, you know, those who came before. And I think there is so much light and also in the world and so much beauty that is just worth fighting for.
Amra Pajalic [00:12:42]:
I think, you know, we read fiction like, you know, for example, I'm now in the crime fiction world. So I read crime fiction to feel that sense of justice and to feel that sense of, you know, resolution. And it's the same with fantasy. We read it because it echoes reality and it echoes what's going on in the real world. But it gives us that sense of resolution, that sense of justice, that sense of, you know, rebelling and standing up for things matters. And so, you know, even though it is fiction, it really holds space and, you know, it is very important. I especially think, you know, young adult fiction when we're writing for 15, 16 year olds, writing for 15, 16 year old selves. You know, that's the thing. We're always sort of writing what we wish we had and the stories that we want young people to read, you know, even though there are so many of us who are adults. And we still love young adult fiction.
Demet Divaroren [00:13:42]:
Yeah, absolutely. It's one of my favorite genres to read still.
Amra Pajalic [00:13:45]:
I don't know. It's just so visceral and so real. And that sense of coming and becoming.
Demet Divaroren [00:13:50]:
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic [00:13:51]:
I mean, we're doing that throughout our lives, you know, the coming and the becoming.
Demet Divaroren [00:13:55]:
Yes, yes. We are always coming of age. I said this the other day. Where was I? School talk. And I said, we. If you. If you guys think that, you know, adults have got it together, you know, like, sure, we may have moments of. Yes. We're so confident in our lives, in our, you know, where we're at, where we're going. But then something will happen and it'll change all that. We have to regroup. So we're always coming of age forever and ever. It's a permanent thing. Our identity is constantly shifting. So it's. I reckon that's very true. We're always. We're always evolving. And I think that's why I'm so drawn to ya.
Amra Pajalic [00:14:41]:
Because it's our first one.
Demet Divaroren [00:14:42]:
It's the first and it's the primary. Yeah. And it sets the tone. Yes, it sets the tone. So for me, in high school, I went through a period where I was just like, defa Demet. Because I was kind of an underachiever. And, you know, that was my average grade. So until about year 10, I just kind of laughed along with my friends.
Amra Pajalic [00:15:03]:
Yeah.
Demet Divaroren [00:15:04]:
Yeah. That's who I am. I fed that narrative, and therefore I became that narrative. So. And it took three words for me to change all that. And I've taken that with me through to adulthood. And even now, the words are, why not me? Yes, why not me? Why can't I get good grades? Why can't I get published? Why not me? It requires a skill that all writers need, that is the ability to, you know, to write, to dig in, to creativity. We've all got that as human beings. So why not me? So, yes, it does. It's a. I reckon, why A. Or our teen years. It does give us the foundation, and some of that does not change.
Amra Pajalic [00:16:08]:
So you discovered early on you at least figured it out in high school. It took me until my early 20s to kind of figure out that I could achieve and that I could do things. Yeah. And it is. So. Yeah, those. Those formative experiences. Experiences were kind of. I think it's because it's so visceral. It's like the strongest ones. But then every decade after that, we're constantly evolving.
Demet Divaroren [00:16:31]:
What held you back? Why 20s?
Amra Pajalic [00:16:34]:
For me, it was the fact because my mum was bipolar and life at home was so chaotic, there was no space at all to figure out me and to focus on me. It was always in reaction to. So it was only when I got married, because I married when I was very young. I was 19. I'm still married to the same person, my husband for 28 years. And it was only because I was married, I was an adult, I had stability, I had space.
Demet Divaroren [00:17:06]:
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic [00:17:06]:
And I had a cheerleader. I never had a cheerleader before that I never had. Because, you know, the thing about bipolar that a lot of people don't get is that it is something that makes people very self involved.
Demet Divaroren [00:17:19]:
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic [00:17:19]:
And so, you know, it wasn't my mum's fault, but she was just incredibly self involved and so there was no space for me. And yeah, like, I think that that was it having that stability to actually kind of be like, oh, what do I want? And what people don't understand. I remember when I was in my early 20s, so many people were like, oh, being an adult, oh my God, paying bills and doing things. This is awesome. Nobody, because, you know, I went to so many different schools, I lived in so many different houses, I was in foster homes. My every day would just implode in a moment. And so for me, being an adult and going, I pick where I live, I pick who I live with, I pick who is in my life. I. I pick where I work, I pick what I do.
Demet Divaroren [00:18:15]:
These were like, you had control over your life. Yes, you were. Yeah, yeah.
Amra Pajalic [00:18:20]:
And so that was the. The big revelation for me. But, you know, we don't stop. We are still constantly evolving y and becoming different people. Not different people, but like, you know, finding different things that we're good at, finding our strengths, realizing what we want to let go of.
Demet Divaroren [00:18:37]:
Yeah, yeah.
Amra Pajalic [00:18:38]:
I just think that young adult thing is, is when it's so visceral.
Demet Divaroren [00:18:41]:
And the important thing is to be able to embrace change.
Amra Pajalic [00:18:45]:
Yes.
Demet Divaroren [00:18:46]:
You know, so whether it's with our writing, being able to actually try new things.
Amra Pajalic [00:18:52]:
Yeah.
Demet Divaroren [00:18:52]:
So you.
Amra Pajalic [00:18:53]:
From contemporary realism to fantasy.
Demet Divaroren [00:18:57]:
Yeah. So that was a big shift. That was a huge shift. And it had to be that way. As I said, I really needed that distance away from reality. I needed that safe space to be able to pour all of these, you know, intense emotions and thoughts and feelings just into this world. So that was really important. But the world building, liberating.
Amra Pajalic [00:19:27]:
Sure.
Demet Divaroren [00:19:27]:
Because then you're not tethered to facts and, you know, the contemporary world has, you know, the rules of contemporary world and bound by cultural rules as well and all of that. So, yes, liberating in. In a really beautiful way, but also, oh, my gosh, so far, it's so hard.
Amra Pajalic [00:19:54]:
The rules, the community, like. Yeah, it's a very complex world building.
Demet Divaroren [00:20:01]:
Yeah, it was. It was very. The. The geography. I've never been good with geography. Like, I teach it.
Amra Pajalic [00:20:09]:
I'm not good at it.
Demet Divaroren [00:20:10]:
And it's like I had to actually think of, you know, where rivers are placed and what's behind here and what's. I. You know, it's good because if you needed a complication, you can just add. You can just build. I don't know. So, yeah, it was fun, but also got to a point where I was like, oh, wow, this is. This is a lot. And where I had to actually, you know, create a map. Me with maps. I can't even draw stick figures. And I had to even. Yeah. With a nap. It was just hard. But wonderful experience. And, yeah, I. I loved it. I really.
Amra Pajalic [00:20:53]:
It's a great novel. And the latest news is it's being made into an audiobook.
Demet Divaroren [00:20:58]:
Yay.
Amra Pajalic [00:20:59]:
We were listening to auditions.
Demet Divaroren [00:21:03]:
Yes. It's so exciting. Yeah. That will be. The Blood Moon Bride audiobook will be published, I believe, early 2026. So that'll be great. It'll be lovely to see it reaching new audiences.
Amra Pajalic [00:21:17]:
And I think for a young adult, you know, I was actually having parent teaching interviews, and I'm like, with students who are EAL students, and the parents always like, what do we do? And I'm like, watch TV with subtitles on them. Listen to audiobooks and have the physical book in front of you because it's learning pronunciation. And I've been looking at some research in terms of people who listen to audiobooks. It does help with the capillary development. It's still as if you are reading it yourself, because there are some silly people who are like, oh, audiobooks. Like, you're not reading. Yes, you are. I've still got pictures in my head.
Demet Divaroren [00:21:59]:
Yeah, well, I. Zara and River. No, Zara and I were listening to snippets of the young adult audiobook just the other day. And she's like, oh, Mum, this doesn't sound like. Like a book. It sounds like. Like acting or, you know, And I said, like the. It's like a play. And she said, yes. And I said, that's the beauty of it. It gives You a totally different experience.
Amra Pajalic [00:22:25]:
And what I love about it is pronunciations.
Demet Divaroren [00:22:27]:
Yes.
Amra Pajalic [00:22:28]:
Cuz especially like with your world, it's a whole, you know, fantasy world that is set and so that like I'm liking how then you'll be. People hear the pronunciations of all this stuff.
Demet Divaroren [00:22:40]:
Do you know? Funny, funny. Funnily enough, I struggled more like when living on Hope street audio was coming out and I had to fill in a form with pronunciations and tips. Now because it's set in multicultural Australia, we've got so many different cultures and names and. And of course, Mrs. Aslan, lots of Turkish kind of words in there and so. Oh my goodness, that was really, really difficult to just write it, like spell it out or just. Yeah. Is it the phonetic. Phonetic, phonetics of it?
Amra Pajalic [00:23:24]:
Yeah. When I was doing my audiobooks, I recorded all of the names and all of the, you know, because of like, they need to hear it, hear it.
Demet Divaroren [00:23:33]:
I. I was spelling it out and I think possibly a few things I did record, but with this one, this is why I was like, nah, the world is universal. Guess what? All the names are universal. And they're, you know, not straightforward. They're still exotic. Sure, I don't like that term, but I, I can't think of a better one at the moment. But still, I wanted a universal feel to this world. It was really, really important to me. I don't. Yeah, I even made it a point not to describe people in terms of, you know, their skin color or any. I was really careful not to add any racial identifiers. It was really important. So in that way, it was a huge shift again from Hope street, you know, which was exploring all of the beauty of culture and, you know, and it was perfect for that book and it was necessary for that book. But for this one I was like, it's fantasy. Human first. That was my motto. People who were reading this book, I want them to be able to recognize their shared humanity with these characters. So for these characters, their humanity had to come first.
Amra Pajalic [00:24:59]:
That's the thing about fantasy, you know, it is set in a different world. Don't, you know, people look differently. And I know that there's been some discussions about fantasy books. That is the joy of it. It is about just taking, you know, creating a different world and within this world. Yes, it has echoes to our world, but it still functions just for the themes in a sense. And the story. Yeah, first, Yeah, I.
Demet Divaroren [00:25:24]:
And yeah, everyone does it differently and who knows what I'll do with the next one? Who knows what the Next one will be just quietly. But anyway, let's see.
Amra Pajalic [00:25:33]:
Well, that's my love. Well, actually, have you started working on that?
Demet Divaroren [00:25:36]:
No. No. Next question, next question.
Amra Pajalic [00:25:39]:
You're still in the throes of publicity for this.
Demet Divaroren [00:25:41]:
I have started something, but I won't.
Amra Pajalic [00:25:42]:
It's too early.
Demet Divaroren [00:25:43]:
Too early.
Amra Pajalic [00:25:44]:
Fair enough. Okay. So I sort of wanted to. You talked a little bit about. Of family and generations and the influence. And you talked about, you know, your grandmother labored immediately after giving birth. Your married, your mother married young. So the stories of resilience. So what. What are the shifts that you see between, you know, like, how is that an inspiration? How is that influence? How is that. Because I see that as an influence in your writing and in the way you're approaching it. But I just wanted you to talk about that.
Demet Divaroren [00:26:20]:
The women in our, you know, the women in our lives and I mentioned, like, those who have come before and the echoes of their experiences and resilience. I always say I come from a long line of resilient women. And yes, storytelling has made me better understand. So when I listen to my grandmother and she talks about her mum and their connection and the lack of opportunities they had to study. But then, you know, like, my great grandmother wanted her daughter to study, but then it was also very afraid of it because, you know, back then in the 50s, in cultures across the world, I think it was, you know, girls studying, I guess they were up against poverty, they were up against, you know, illiterate kind of parents. And my great grandmother was illiterate. Yeah, yeah. And so. But my grandmother learned. So this is through generations. How did these shifts happen? My grandmother learned how to write and read, and I remember exchanging letters with her when I was young. So that was a doorway for us to connect, even in childhood, even though we were thousands of kilometres away in Turkey and Australia. And then, you know, my mum, unfortunately, she's one of eight children. She didn't get a chance to study past primary school. That really became. That was a game changer for her. And it was her golden ticket, I guess, because it opened up the world to her through literature, particularly through fiction. So she was a huge reader. And. And so what she did was, okay, my daughters will study. My daughters will not get married young. They will study. They will be financially stable. They will have lives first, and then they will, you know, choose to get married when they're ready. So complete. So that's like three. Is it three generations, Amra. Because, like, my numerous. Is still really one, two, grandmother, mother. So. So you can see like the. The shifts and the ripple effects of. Yeah. Of. Of change and also legacy and resilience, you know, and. And resistance. How do we. How do we resist these cycles? How do we resist. Yeah, like how to create then change. And. Yeah, all of those kinds of elements are really. And, and, yeah, this book is not autobiographical. It is fantasy. But I, you know, I'm passionate about these topics.
Amra Pajalic [00:29:32]:
You know, we keep coming back to those stories.
Demet Divaroren [00:29:35]:
Come back to these stories that really.
Amra Pajalic [00:29:37]:
Kind of shaped us.
Demet Divaroren [00:29:38]:
Yeah, yeah.
Amra Pajalic [00:29:39]:
And I also think what you're talking about in terms of, you know, each generation. That is such an Australian story that each generation has the opportunity to do better because we kind of stand on the shoulders of the previous generations where they're the ones sacrificing and we do better. And so I talked to That. I talked to Sophia about that because, you know, in a sense, we're in the same boat where it was our parents and we're the second children, now the third. And I'm like, you're going to be a better version of me. You are going to achieve things more than me earlier, better, because they will have the benefit of us being able to translate, you know, the education system, the opportunities. Whereas for me, it was really no networks. I didn't even understand how university worked when I was in high school. I didn't understand so many things. Didn't have any cultural capital that our children have access to because of who we are and the fact that we've, you know, had those things. So, yeah, like, it's just.
Demet Divaroren [00:30:44]:
It's really.
Amra Pajalic [00:30:45]:
It makes you so grateful, but also it gives you a sense of responsibility.
Demet Divaroren [00:30:48]:
Yes.
Amra Pajalic [00:30:49]:
To achieve and to move. There is. There is a little bit of pressure. Do you feel?
Demet Divaroren [00:30:53]:
Yeah, of course. And especially, like, there's a. I think about this a lot. So I have a boy and a girl. And so for me, I think about, oh, my gosh, there's such. There's such pressure for me to even. Not moderate, but just kind of think really seriously about the words that come out of my mouth. So the pressure of raising children is immense, of course. And then the messaging and. And then. And so I raise them. I always say this, I raise them equally. I call them beauties. I don't just reserve beauty for my girl. It's, you're both beautiful, you're amazing, you're creative. But when it comes to gender roles, absolutely, I am over. Like, I'm not overthinking. I'm thinking carefully and intentionally about the words that come out of My mouth, the dishwasher needs to be cleaned. They are both doing it. They are working together. Their life skills, they're not reserved for one or the other.
Amra Pajalic [00:32:05]:
Yes.
Demet Divaroren [00:32:06]:
And that in itself is so much pressure, and there is so much energy that goes into trying to just expose them as much as I absolutely can to a level of, you know, equality. And I think that.
Amra Pajalic [00:32:21]:
Do you feel like that is also because of our background, where we come from?
Demet Divaroren [00:32:27]:
It's because of the world that they're going to. Yeah, it's absolutely about that. Of course, back. Yes, of course. That's part of the world. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic [00:32:36]:
I come from Bosnian culture, which is very gendered, very patriarchal. And, yeah, Turkish culture is.
Demet Divaroren [00:32:42]:
Is like that as well, to a degree. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic [00:32:44]:
Yeah. So women are the ones who are supposed to do all the household chores. So in my household, my joke is, you know, whenever Sophia is like, oh, I'm hungry, I'm like, you've got a father for that. She's like, you know, I. I need something like, you've got a father for that.
Demet Divaroren [00:33:00]:
That's.
Amra Pajalic [00:33:00]:
That's what a father is for. I. I don't do anything in terms of housework and cooking and shopping. He's the one. So that's always my thing. I'm like, that's what men are for. That's his role. So I just flip it completely. And.
Demet Divaroren [00:33:16]:
Yeah. And. And look, of course, like, I'm not denying that our cultures share that. Many, many cultures have that, you know, patriarchal kind of engendered roles and patriarchal societies. I mean, we do live in. But we live in a patriarchal society. And this is, you know, they go out into the playground and they hear things like, oh, girls are weak. Chuck them in the creek. And I just, you know, when I hear that, I hear that from many, many children. Like, we're at. We're at a playground, and people will be like, kids will just be throwing things like that around, and I have to sit and say, okay, let's flip that. You know, like. Or I try and explain and I'll try and make something fun out of it that is. Got nothing to do with, you know, gender. It starts. It starts in the playground, and I just. It's just so fascinating, but also frustrating. And it's just we've got our work cut out for us.
Amra Pajalic [00:34:22]:
But what I'm stuck on is, like, how they always come up with these, like, rhymes.
Demet Divaroren [00:34:26]:
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic [00:34:26]:
That are, like, the worst rhymes. Like the worst racist rhymes, the worst sexist rhymes. But it's always the rhymes where they just, like, you know, they get so catchy.
Demet Divaroren [00:34:34]:
Yeah, they get catchy. But, you know, kids hear it from adults, I think.
Amra Pajalic [00:34:39]:
And the power of language, that brings. The power of language and the power of what we're doing.
Demet Divaroren [00:34:43]:
It is absolutely. Language is everything. Yeah, it is everything.
Amra Pajalic [00:34:48]:
Yeah.
Demet Divaroren [00:34:48]:
You know.
Amra Pajalic [00:34:49]:
Well, I wanted to kind of bring it back to. What advice do you have for people? Writing creativity. Biggest lesson.
Demet Divaroren [00:35:04]:
Biggest lesson. What can I say? Writing creativity.
Amra Pajalic [00:35:10]:
I mean, I think for you, the perseverance story is the one. We've talked about this before where I've said we have both met so many talented writers in our journey and in this path who gave up before, you know, they. They kind of didn't keep pushing through.
Demet Divaroren [00:35:31]:
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic [00:35:31]:
And we're kind of the survivors marathon.
Demet Divaroren [00:35:37]:
It's. It's really, really hard to stay motivated to stay. Yeah. To keep. To. To keep the faith, I guess. And. Yeah. It took 12 years until I published a novel, and I thought I would achieve that in a handful of years. Yeah. And I think so. Persistence, keep practicing, keep making the time for writing. But before you do anything, you have to believe in yourself. Because once you believe in yourself, and I always say this, then it's infectious. Then others start believing in you. You have to believe in yourself and just stick to it. And don't put a time frame on how publication or. Or any kind of reward, because if that's why you're doing it, it's gonna end in heartache. Because even, like, when you do get published and you do, like, win an award or, you know, no matter what, it's an innate thing. So the external things cannot sustain you, because then after that, you still have to sit down and write something and have the stamina and perseverance and motivation to stick at it for, like, five years, for example. You can get it done in two and a half. But really, we've each taken five years.
Amra Pajalic [00:37:08]:
With some of our books.
Demet Divaroren [00:37:10]:
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic [00:37:10]:
Some of them had a really long percolation.
Demet Divaroren [00:37:14]:
Yes.
Amra Pajalic [00:37:14]:
And went through so many.
Demet Divaroren [00:37:15]:
Yes.
Amra Pajalic [00:37:16]:
Incarnations.
Demet Divaroren [00:37:17]:
Yeah. And. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic [00:37:19]:
And that's because we just. We could not let go of them. And.
Demet Divaroren [00:37:23]:
Yeah. You have to maintain that motivation. So no one else is going to do it for you. It's an innate thing that needs to be nurtured. So again, elevator pitch. Right. We've just gone on a big tangent.
Amra Pajalic [00:37:36]:
Hey, that's what we do. This is what we do.
Demet Divaroren [00:37:38]:
It's the best way I can explain it. Yeah. Yeah. Just don't give up if it's something that truly speaks to you. To your soul and your heart, and it just gives you life. Just keep doing it.
Amra Pajalic [00:37:53]:
Hey, trust. Trust in it.
Demet Divaroren [00:37:55]:
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic [00:37:56]:
And that's. That's what your journey has proven where, you know, just like a little choo choo.
Demet Divaroren [00:38:02]:
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic [00:38:03]:
Trying. Thank you so much. It was so good. Usually we have our chats without the camera, so, you know, this time we record it for posterity and.
Demet Divaroren [00:38:13]:
Congratulations, Amra.
Amra Pajalic [00:38:15]:
Thank you.
Demet Divaroren [00:38:16]:
It's a beautiful book. I've started reading it. It's a beautiful, beautiful book. Thank you. Hard read, isn't it? It's a hard read, but it is. It is wonderful. Congratulations.
Amra Pajalic [00:38:31]:
Yes. We know all about the long game, don't we?
Demet Divaroren [00:38:33]:
Don't. Yes.
Amra Pajalic [00:38:34]:
All right, well, thank.
Demet Divaroren [00:38:35]:
Thank you.
Amra Pajalic [00:38:38]:
Thank you for tuning in to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe and follow for more insights, stories, and inspiration. From my armchair to yours. Remember, every story begins with a single word.