38-Whose Story Got Left Off the Charts? Reclaiming the History of R&B Groups, interviewing Amani Roberts
Podcast: Download (Duration: 1 hour and 6 minutes)
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You can listen above or on your favourite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
Subscribe: Spotify | Apple | RSS | More
You can listen above or on your favourite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
Show notes
Amani Roberts, author of 'The Quiet Storm', discusses the untold stories of R&B groups and the impact of media on their disappearance. He shares insights on the decline of black-owned media, the digital divide, and the challenges faced by artists in the music industry. Amani's book is a cultural manifesto that aims to correct the record on R&B groups and their forgotten stories. The conversation covers Amani Roberts' book, which includes personal stories, opinions, and historical facts about R&B groups. It also delves into the challenges of traditional publishing, the impact of R&B music, and the future of R&B groups.
Takeaways
Chapters
Takeaways
- Untold stories of R&B groups
- Impact of media on the disappearance of R&B groups Self-publishing and hybrid publishing offer opportunities for authors to own their intellectual property and reach success without traditional gatekeepers.
- R&B music has a significant impact on all music genres and raising awareness about its history can lead to more credit, sampling, and proper songwriting credits for R&B artists.
Chapters
- 00:00 The Untold Stories of R&B Groups
- 04:54 The Decline of Black-Owned Media
- 12:28 The Digital Divide in Music
- 20:34 Challenges Faced by Artists in the Music Industry
- 22:07 A Cultural Manifesto: 'The Quiet Storm'
- 23:39 A Personal Journey Through R&B
- 25:01 Challenges of Traditional Publishing
- 27:29 The Impact of R&B Music
- 32:15 The Future of R&B Groups
- 38:25 The Power of Self-Publishing
Connect with Amani Roberts
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Amani Roberts, M.A. spent years behind the turntables before he spent years in the archives — and both taught him the same lesson: someone always decides which stories get remembered. His book, The Quiet Storm, is his attempt to correct the record on R&B groups — The Isley Brothers, The Temptations, TLC, Destiny’s Child, Boyz II Men — acts that dominated the charts for six decades and then vanished almost overnight once the industry, the media, and the algorithms moved on. Amani holds a master’s in Music Business from Berklee College of Music and a degree from Howard University, and his writing on music, culture, and creativity has appeared in Forbes, People, and The LA Times.
His other books, DJs Mean Business and Resilient & Brilliant, circle a version of the same idea: that creativity and history live in places the mainstream doesn’t always think to look. He co-hosts the podcast Adventures in Business and has spoken to audiences at Marriott, Meeting Professionals International, and beyond about music, memory, and reinvention. Website: https://www.amaniexperience.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/amaniexperience |
Transcript of episode
Amra Pajalic (00:02)
Welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. Today I have Amani Roberts, Masters of Arts, who has spent years behind the turntables before he spent years in the archives, and both taught him the same lesson. Someone always decides which stories get remembered. His book, The Quiet Storm, is his attempt to correct the record on RB groups: The Isley Brothers, The Temptations, TLC, Destiny's Child, Boys to Men.
Acts that dominated the charts for six decades and then vanished almost overnight once the industry, the media and the algorithms moved on. Amani holds a master's in music business from Berkeley College of Music and a degree from Howard University, and his writing on music, culture and creativity has appeared in Forbes, People, in the LA Times. Welcome, Amani.
Amani Roberts (00:57)
Thank you very much for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Amra Pajalic (01:00)
Me too. When I read you know, when you emailed me, I was like, my gosh, these are the groups I grew up with. This is my generation, this is what I was dancing to. We had I'm in Melbourne and you're in Los Angeles, is it?
Amani Roberts (01:16)
Las Vegas, Las Vegas,
yeah.
Amra Pajalic (01:17)
Las
Vegas. And so we had a a club here that played R and B music and me and my friend would travel all the way across onto the other side of the suburbs for this music. So I'm actually really excited to hear this perspective because this is something that I'm you know, grew up with and and I also love that thing of the untold stories or the forgotten stories and and kind of unearthing it. so I'm really excited about this. So
What was the moment that you realised this it wasn't just that R and B lost popularity? It was a story someone needed to go find and tell.
Amani Roberts (01:55)
I was doing some research for my my kind of thesis project at Berkeley College of Music and I did some initial research and I was like, ooh, there's a lot here. I did a little timeline and realized that by checking the charts after about 2005 or 6, it was pretty much empty of groups, and that was alarm. And I said, Okay, there's more to it, which means it's a good research project. So the research project was very fascinating. And then I said, Well, it would be a good idea to add the history in the front.
So people can read through the history, go through the journey and then see the question, well, what happened to the groups? And then see the answer afterwards, 'cause it's not like R and B is dead as a genre, it's alive and well and doing well, but the groups, what happened to the groups? That's the big question.
Amra Pajalic (02:40)
Hmm. Yeah, I can relate to that. I'm doing a PhD and it's like you start out thinking, this is what I'm gonna be doing, and suddenly
Amani Roberts (02:47)
Yeah, yeah.
Amra Pajalic (02:48)
three years later you're like, hmm, that's very interesting what happened. I don't
understand, but hey, I'm enjoying the journey.
Amani Roberts (02:53)
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Amra Pajalic (02:57)
so w you've been behind the turntables in classrooms and in boardrooms. What did being a DJ teach you about stories that get amplified and which get get skipped over?
Amani Roberts (03:08)
You know, I think being a DJ, it taught me all different stories of different music artists that I would play, their journeys. Cause when you go crate digging, as we say, you learn about music artists, groups, you learn about their B cuts, their first hits, their recent hits, so you can see the evolution of groups in terms of their sound as they go through diff different decades. So being a DJ is just like being a history learner. And then when you DJ out, you're kind of sharing history and taking people through a historical journey.
Amra Pajalic (03:37)
I how you're connecting that, because you know that's the thing, we sort of start our lives in certain areas and we think it's all separate, but we're learning skills that are actually translatable, that will actually sort of help us in other facets. So that's really wonderful. so is there a specific song or group that first made you curious or angry enough to spend years chasing the history down?
Amani Roberts (03:59)
You
said angry enough. That's funny. I would say Rick James Cold Blooded. That was the first one of my first 45, the little records. Cool and the Gang was probably the first, first group, because that was a group my dad loved and he played them all the time. I remember I had the 45 for get down on it. Of course, you know, Celebration was one of their most popular songs. So they were probably the first group where I entered the world.
of R and B groups. The second group would be Frankie Beverly and Maze, because my dad loved them and he played them a lot too. So those were the two initial groups that really got me into it.
Amra Pajalic (04:32)
Mm. Yeah, that's the thing. Those those I was just talking to someone last night about the songs that we grew up with and the nostalgia that it creates and it just becomes this, you know, soundtrack to your life in a sense. so you point to the decline of black owned media as part of the imperfect storm. Can you walk us through what actually got lost when those outlets disappeared?
Amani Roberts (04:54)
Yeah, so we we're talking about like Ebony Magazine, Essence magazine, Jet, and then Vibe Magazine. Those are the kind of the magazines. And they were the primary earned media outlet for R and B groups and hip hop. And so they all kind of went away. Now Essence is still around, but at its peak, all four together had about eight million one hundred thousand monthly subscribers. Jet was weekly, so Jet came out every week, so it was a lot. And now, you know it
You know, when I did the research, it's less than a million. It was less than five hundred thousand. So that is a big, big problem. And they, you know, Vibe magazine, you could you can see behind me, I have covers like it was it was part of the culture. And so when that goes away, that gives groups less of an opportunity to get exposure, to get in front of people on a consistent basis for free. It was a challenge. Then you had TV shows in America like we had in Living Color.
So
In Living Color would have like a lot of groups and hip hop acts that were playing, so you get exposure there. The Arsenio Hall show, gone. Those went off the air like eight days from each other in the mid-90s. Then you also had like Video Soul 106 in Park that was on BET. So all these specific media properties that would promote and share and tell the stories of RB groups, they go away and no one takes their place. So when no one takes their place.
people don't discover it as much and it just gets forgotten. So those were kind of some of the key elements that happen that really accelerated the the disappearance of R and B group.
Amra Pajalic (06:27)
What's your theory about what happened? Is it just the decline in journalism or was there something more?
Amani Roberts (06:33)
I th yeah, that that's you know, I think money was an issue. I think media was shifting and changing, and maybe they chose to not replace certain things. So you know, MTV, they went from playing like music videos to more like reality TV, because it could be very expensive to produce a show. Another show would be Video Video Soul. When it was Donnie Simpson, Video Soul would bring the groups in and talk to them, gone. So I think finances were a big issue, a shift in desires from the media and what to promote.
Now that that can be a whole nother topic as well, because whereas it hurt R and B groups, hip hop still was able to thrive, but there's questions as to why. So that's what I think it was money, desires from media companies to really promote only one genre that really s you know, had people of color in it. And so I think R and B groups kind of suffered.
Amra Pajalic (07:24)
Yeah, and you know, I come from a minority background, I'm Bosnian Muslim background, and so this
Amani Roberts (07:29)
Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (07:30)
whole podcast is premised on giving opportunity to underrepresented stories because this is something I see in the publishing industry in Australia and elsewhere where underrepresented minorities, you know, just if you don't have someone who understands, who is in your corner, those stories just don't get out there. You don't have that advocate.
happening and and that's what's important.
Amani Roberts (07:55)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's that's
important. I will say, but I also will say, you know, rock groups suffered from the same thing. Like they've kind of gone away too. They're not as frequent. They they had a little bit longer license, but they've kind of suffered through similar issues, even some pop groups. So I think it's more a shift in how people consume content, how we display content, because K pop groups are doing very, very well currently and they've done very, very well for the last couple of decades.
So they're doing something correctly that, you know, I would love for R and B groups to kind of study and see what they can do to kind of reverse the cycle and the trend. So groups still work. What is what are K pop groups doing that we can learn from?
Amra Pajalic (08:40)
thing and I'm curious to hear your perspective. I remember Cher once saying that she would not get a publishing contract in this climate because it's all about the aesthetics as opposed to the talent. What's your perspective on, you know,
Amani Roberts (08:55)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (08:56)
that that balance?
Mm
Amani Roberts (08:57)
She's not wrong. She's not wrong.
I think it sometimes it takes a l it takes it's very hard for someone who is a pure, talented singer and artist to rise up to the top because there's so much noise from some other people that people look at the outside of the package first before the inside. Generally speaking, now sometimes people break through and you get it, but what was it, the the old video where they said someone doesn't have a
Someone has a face for radio or video kill, the music star, basically, they were kind
Amra Pajalic (09:24)
Yes. Yes.
Amani Roberts (09:26)
of being very prophetic. That's kind of true. So now
Amra Pajalic (09:28)
Mm.
Amani Roberts (09:29)
it just takes so much more effort for the people who are supremely talented to get out there and be successful because there's so many distractions and people put money behind other acts that might be okay, but they're not as talented as other people who don't get as much exposure. So share wasn't wrong. She's not wrong.
Amra Pajalic (09:47)
Yeah, I know, it would kind of makes me sad because, you know, when we're in the arts, we're like, you know, it it's about the arts, it's about the artist. but even in the publishing industry I see so much this is my new bugbear, by the way, about, you know, the people who are, you know, getting things, it's it's the people who poke their head out, who are doing the you know, PR part of it.
Amani Roberts (10:09)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (10:10)
And I mean that's my sour grapes also, 'cause this is something that I've really struggled with.
Amani Roberts (10:15)
Yeah, yeah.
Amra Pajalic (10:16)
And I've had to enter this space and go, People need to see what a forty nine year old woman looks like and this is what I'm trying to do. So yeah,
Amani Roberts (10:24)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (10:26)
it's it's a difficult thing.
Amani Roberts (10:28)
It is. We're we're in an attention economy. So whatever you can do as a content creator to keep people's attention and catch people's attention consistently, they'll keep they'll keep following you. That's why some of the mid-level artists, like if they release an album, say in 2026 and they disappear for three years to release another album in 2029, people have forgotten about them. You have to keep releasing music, keep doing things. Only when you get to a certain level, like a Rihanna or Taylor Swift or a Beyonce, where you can release an album every five or ten years and people will still love you.
That's very rare air. But for the mid level artists and the up and coming, you have to be you have to be creating music, putting music out, creating videos, creating content, going on tour, being active on social media, sending out emails, finding your fans. It's a lot of work. It's very tiring. But that's because we're in an attention economy.
Amra Pajalic (11:16)
Yeah, it's very true 'cause like I'm I'm I started this podcast just because I wanted to talk to people and I just wanted to have conversations and sort of learn from people that that I'm talking to. and then I've kind of gone, this is accidentally doing all of that where it's just becoming an organic
know what I want to call it beast but I'm like that's not the right word but it almost is
Amani Roberts (11:42)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (11:43)
where it's like just growing and and you know doing doing those things. But yeah, it's I don't know, it's disheartening but it's also like the reality in a sense and we all need to in some way come to terms with it in the arts. but it does make me a little bit sad.
Amani Roberts (12:01)
Yeah,
yeah, yeah. I understand. Yeah. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (12:02)
Even as I know I'm responsible because I'm doing the same thing where I'm on social media and following the people
that are popping up more. Yeah. so the digital divide is such an unexpected piece in of this story for people who assume that chart data is neutral. What did researching teach you about the n what numbers can hide about a story?
Amani Roberts (12:28)
Hmm. I think numbers, you know, we pay a lot of attention to who like who gets the number one song, how long they stay there. But you have some artists that have never had a number one song that are legends in the in the music industry. So a lot of times we put a lot of maybe too much focus on that. And a lot of times artists will get discouraged if they don't get these top charts, but they have an amazing catalog. Like I look at one of my favorite groups, Mint Condition.
I think they had one song that reached number one or number two, which was Pretty Brown Eyes, but they're like legends, they do so well. In Vogue, another one of my favorite groups, they never had a number one Yeah, they never had a a
Amra Pajalic (13:04)
Loving work. my god, I love them so much.
Amani Roberts (13:07)
a number one song on the Billboard Hot One Hundred. They always came in second, but they're legends. So you look even Cool in the Gang. Cool in the gang
Amra Pajalic (13:13)
Mm.
Amani Roberts (13:14)
is a legendary group. In the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, they had one Billboard Hot One Hundred number one song. So the Jackson Five never had one. I have to double check. I'm pretty sure that's true.
So it's challenging between the numbers and then you have the awards like the Grammys. So but they're important because they're good milestones to shoot for and they recognize people doing well. But sometimes some of the greatest groups get lost because they didn't have the numbers that people on the outside would look at and say, well, they never had a number one, so they're not even gonna listen to them. Well, they don't realize this is a group that's been sampled so many times, or this is a group that's had like the Isaac brothers. So they've had
Billboard Hot 100 hits on the Hot 100 chart, which is all genres, six straight decades. That's never been done before. I question if it will be done before, because I'm talking about new music, six straight decades, but no one really knows this. People are shocked when I tell them the Isaac Brothers had hits starting in the 50s all the way to the 2000s, and that's something where people kind of discount it. Now they're famous within RB, but they should be even bigger. They're one of my favorite groups, and I I'm on a mission to keep spreading the word because
Those are three good examples of how numbers kind of tell a different story than actually the truth.
Amra Pajalic (14:29)
What I'm getting from that is also what I'm seeing in the publishing industry where it's like all these people trying to hit the Amazon charts and you know be on the top lists. And the thing about being in this industry as an indie author, it's about the backlist. It's about having books that you are continually promoting and then that you're doing new books. And so that's the thing in a sense with all of the arts, it's not about that one great success, it's about continually building and just sort of
to keep going and keep going out there. But yes, the industry, it does look at all those markers and that's why, you know, you need it. So it's a very difficult balancing act.
Amani Roberts (15:08)
Yeah.
I mean, like just like if you're an author, you want to have a catalogue of books that you've written. If you're a musician, you have a catalogue of albums and singles that you've produced. Like for my second book, I made the USA Today top one hundred. I was number fifty. So my book was in the newspaper. I was number one in like five categories on Amazon. So that's important. That's good for PR, but then the next week it changes. So you have to continue to promote the book, you have to continue to do it. So it's an important, it's good for the resume, it's good for credibility.
But that's just kind of the beginning and you can't just let that be your only focus.
Amra Pajalic (15:43)
which book was that? Was that DJ's Main Business? The Quiet Storm is your second book.
Amani Roberts (15:46)
No, the Quiet Storm. So when the Quiet Storm came out in in
in second book in February of twenty twenty five, last year, we made number fifty on the USA Today bestseller list on our launch week, which was tremendous. I was thrilled, I'm still thrilled. I even have the poster of it over there. But
Amra Pajalic (16:01)
Yes.
Amani Roberts (16:03)
that was just the beginning. That was
just the beginning, so there's more to do.
Amra Pajalic (16:07)
Mm. And so when people have read the book and and connected the book, what's some of the feedback that you're receiving?
Amani Roberts (16:14)
So if you if you when you get the book, you'll notice there's rare photographs of groups that you probably have never seen before. So that was something that took a lot of intentionality. The the layout of the book is very unique because I show people the charts, my favorite samples, my favorite songs from the group, their Grammy nominations, pictures. So it's a it's like an experience. Like you don't have to you don't have you don't shouldn't read it front to back. Just take a decade, read it, look up your favorite groups, check it, come back.
it's an experience, which is why I'm actually turning it into a board game too. That's the project for this year, as I'm gonna turn the book into a game and so we're working on that. But great feedback. People are surprised at some of the facts. People are always like, Well, what are you gonna write next? and all this. So very, very positive feedback. it just takes time to get the book in all the people's hands 'cause it doesn't happen overnight.
Amra Pajalic (17:03)
No, and I love that you're 'cause you know that's the other thing. We own this copyright, you know, when when we do it all ourselves. and that means that we can exploit our intellectual property
Amani Roberts (17:15)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (17:15)
and look at different ways of creating connections with an audience. So I love the idea of the board game. Can you give us a little bit of a you know, how is that gonna work?
Amani Roberts (17:25)
Okay, so you start the board game, you'll be in the nineteen fifties, and you'll travel through and you'll have some questions about maybe some groups in the fifties or sixties, but you wanna get a certain amount of points. Now, if there are four of us playing and say you don't know a lot about the decade, but there's our friend Laura and Laura knows a lot about the decade, you can bet some of your points. So I bet you Laura's gonna get this question right. So even if you don't know, you bet ten whatever the currency is, and she gets it right, you get the points. You can keep moving along too. So it
Even if you're only familiar with a few decades, you can still bet on who you're playing with to see who who does well. And so you travel through the different journeys. Some cards will have a QR code where you have to listen to a song on either Spotify or YouTube, and you keep moving along, and there'll be a trivia question. Like a trivia question would be: in the U.S., there are only two female groups that have earned diamond status for album sales. That's that's 10 million albums units or more. What two groups are that?
Do you know you have any guesses?
Amra Pajalic (18:27)
Something in TLC maybe? Maybe in vogue?
Amani Roberts (18:28)
TLC is one, very
good. And then the other one's actually not an RB group. It's the Dixie Chicks. And so you get those
Amra Pajalic (18:35)
yes.
Amani Roberts (18:35)
questions and you get the questions and you get it right, you bet, and then you keep moving. So little questions like that. Then maybe another time you come and you'll hear, you'll put the song on, you have to be like, okay, this is an R B song, but what famous hip hop artist sampled this song? So if I put on like between no, if I put on Caravan of Love or Footsteps in the Dark by the Isaac brothers.
And I say what famous hip hop artists sample this song, you you would say, Okay, who do you think knows the answer? The answer is Ice Cube, where it was a good day, then you keep going. So you mix between trivia, interactive things, and you have a gambling aspect and you work your all the way to the mid two thousands, and that's where the game kinda ends and you win.
Amra Pajalic (19:15)
That actually sounds like a great night in. I want this board game. We're going to Yeah, you're gonna have to put me on your mailing list and and when it comes to but I also
Amani Roberts (19:18)
I'll let you know when it's done.
Amra Pajalic (19:24)
love the idea behind it because you know you've created all this extra content, but in a sense, your book then is the reference book where
Amani Roberts (19:30)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (19:30)
people can kind of use that book and read the book to learn all these facts and to be able to participate in the game.
But it's also just that sensory, it's almost like a party because you're listening to the music and you're really kind of embracing that nostalgia. And I
Amani Roberts (19:45)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (19:47)
don't know, like, you know, music just has so many memories and there's so many songs that we don't even know that we know or we we've heard it.
'cause when you were mentioning some of those artists, and mentioning these songs, I'm like, I've listened to those. I know all of those songs, but I didn't know the name of the artist and stuff. this is brilliant. I'm so glad I'm talking to you. Such great
Amani Roberts (20:06)
Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Thank you.
Amra Pajalic (20:09)
No, this is just great ideas because this is the thing that we have to do. We have to sort of and but this is also the joy of what we do where we can get these ideas and where, you know, if you were working with a publisher, they might be like, don't know, they've taken your copyright, you can't move forward with this. But you're an entrepreneur, you're just moving forward with it.
and you'll see, you know, I I think it's gonna be a winner to be honest. I think I think that's gonna be a a really good
Amani Roberts (20:37)
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.
Amra Pajalic (20:41)
thing that's gonna get out there. So when you set out to write The Quiet Storm, did you see yourself as a historian, journalist, or something closer to an advocate?
Amani Roberts (20:52)
At first I saw myself as like a researcher. I was doing research and trying to determine what happened. But as I got further into it and as I got more feedback from people who read it, they started calling me like a music historian, a RB historian. So I'll accept that. I'll take that. but at first it was research, but as I got into it and realized just the amount of history and all the writing and all the references, I quickly realized that it was more than just a research kind of book.
Amra Pajalic (21:15)
Mm. And I think also when we do things that we are so passionate about, we kind of we don't set out to be, but we become advocates for that part of history. because it's our history, but it's also like, you know, something that we really want people to know about and to learn about. I don't know, when I was working on the book that's part of my thesis
I had to believe this was going to change the world. Like you have to go into this hubris
Amani Roberts (21:40)
Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (21:41)
thing. even though it's a book and, you know, people reading it, but it's it's gonna teach them something. And I think that's the same with your book where you're doing something you believe in so much, something you're so passionate about, and and that's what readers get out of it. So it's pretty awesome.
Amani Roberts (21:56)
Yeah, yeah. Thank you.
Amra Pajalic (22:00)
So how did you research the story of the mainstream industry? Stopped documenting. Where did you find these receipts?
Amani Roberts (22:07)
Mm-hmm. So you do a lot of research on the internet. You read a lot of books. Like I had I read Charlie Wilson's autobiography because he talked a lot about his time with the gap band. You watch a lot of documentaries, you watch a lot of interviews, just watching, reading, watching, reading, researching. Then you got a fact check because everything you find online you need to trust and verify. And that just took a that's why it took four and a half years to write it, because there was so much research and watching and writing and fact checking.
So, like love mini documentaries, a lot of great podcasts out there, a lot of great interviews, books. That was it. That's it. It's just a lot of that. It's just a lot of that putting the pieces together. And then
Amra Pajalic (22:47)
Yeah, you really kind of disappear into it.
Amani Roberts (22:50)
yes, and then with my I have to credit my students at Cal State University of Fullerton because they helped me with the data. They helped me do the research on looking up the charts. And we came up with an algorithm that we really put importance on record sales.
Grammy nominations and wins, Billboard Hot 100, hits in terms of the top one hundred, and then notable performances. So we have all that and we we put how much does each group get in that category? We have an algorithm. That's how I was able to come up with the top ten or eleven for each decade. And so I really credit my students at Cal State University of Fulton for helping me do that. It was the middle of a pandemic, so they had extra time. I thanked them all in the book, but
They did lotta the data research on the front end while I was doing the historical research and telling the story and then you put the two and two together and we make four.
Amra Pajalic (23:36)
And that's the thing, you never know where your unexpected allies will come in and you
Amani Roberts (23:39)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (23:39)
know, the support networks. And that's why it's important to share what you're doing and talk about it.
Amani Roberts (23:44)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (23:45)
and see how can you, you know, are there connections with people?
Amani Roberts (23:48)
Right, right.
Amra Pajalic (23:49)
It's wonderful. so you've called the book a cultural manifesto, not just a history book. Why what did you feel free to say that a straight history wouldn't let you say?
Amani Roberts (24:01)
Just
I gave a lot of opinions in the book. Like each chapter, it'll say like my favorite samples, my favorite songs, and then my take. And so I will share a lot of personal information about the groups in terms of how I discovered them, what they mean to me, and how I continue to support and research them. Like I probably referenced my lime green CD for SWV in that chapter. I talk about how my dad exposed me to Frankie Beverly and Mays. I talk about
Even a group like Climax in the eighties was pretty rare because they had a all all female group of color and they were playing all the instruments. So there's certain different takes that I have that made it more than just a history book. I give you the history and all the facts that have been checked and confirmed and then I sprinkle in a little bit of just my opinion and my experience. Like, you know, there'll be certain groups, maybe Jagged Edge where, you know, some of their slow songs were fixtures on mixtapes I used to make. Just fun personal things that people can relate to. So they're kind of
peeking into my world.
Amra Pajalic (25:01)
I think that's important because at the end of the day when we're writing, there's no such thing I mean, some historians, you know, if it's a history book, it's it's objective, but I don't know, it's it's about that personal journey. And then people
Amani Roberts (25:12)
Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (25:13)
can read it and connect with their personal journey and and the songs that an artist that really influenced them. So a lot of my listeners are writers trying to get an overlooked story past gate gatekeepers who don't think it matters.
What did writing this book teach you that you'd pass on to them?
Amani Roberts (25:33)
Well,
absolutely. Well, we've kind of discussed like it's okay to self-publish, even hybrid publish, so you own your IP. Therefore, you don't have to worry about the gatekeepers. You can put your book out yourself, you can do the whole launch, and you can get a certain amount of success and credibility, etc. Maybe you make a chart of USA Today bestseller list, but you get your book out there, then you spread the word about yourself, then people will start to recognize it. So don't my message would be don't let traditional ways of
Publishing books stop you from moving forward? That would be my message.
Amra Pajalic (26:06)
Yeah, my view is that and I've I've interviewed quite a few writers at this point who are in the traditional publishing model in Australia, and they're just like, It's not really working, it's a bit outdated, they're not quite in touch with you know, even even in Australia, I don't know if this happens in the US, but in Australia they p price ebooks pretty much the same price as the paperback.
Amani Roberts (26:32)
interesting.
Amra Pajalic (26:32)
Yeah, it's ridiculous
because they're trying to force readers to buy the paperback. And the issue is as an author, you have more chance of continuing to earn income on the ebook post publication, but not if that price is so high.
Amani Roberts (26:52)
Yeah, interesting.
Amra Pajalic (26:52)
so there's a lot of things like that where
it's just like, you know, it doesn't benefit the long term. and if you don't have and like, you know, traditional publishing models, you get six weeks in a bookstore and then good day.
Amani Roberts (27:05)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Amra Pajalic (27:07)
unless unless something happens where you get shortlisted for a prize. Whereas the joy of what we're doing, it doesn't stop.
It's constant promotion, like as you're coming up with new ideas, new products, but then anything you do in the future is continuing to sort of promote the backlist. Yeah.
Amani Roberts (27:25)
Yeah. Yeah. That's
interesting. Very interesting. Wow. Hmm.
Amra Pajalic (27:29)
Yeah,
yeah, it's it's I have a lot of things, but I can't say it on air. Yeah,
Amani Roberts (27:34)
Understood, understood, understood.
Amra Pajalic (27:37)
I'm sure you're the same where you're like, There are things we
Amani Roberts (27:39)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (27:39)
will talk about on the air and there are things that are just staying in the vault.
Amani Roberts (27:41)
Things. Yeah, yeah.
Amra Pajalic (27:45)
so if R and B groups get their history back, get remembered properly, what changes for artists making music in that tradition? right now? What what do you think changes for people right now?
Amani Roberts (27:58)
So
it's it's more about getting people to understand just the history and how much R and B is at the the core of all music genres. And I think that if we can continue to raise awareness about that and show people where this music comes from, I think maybe more people will embrace and try to make RB music and you know, it's okay because we have so many different genres now. It's different, but I just think that
People embrace RB more, they'll give them their credit, more credit than is due. They'll sample them more because sampling is pretty popular, especially hip hop, pop music, and they'll give proper credit. So just raises awareness, more sampling, more duets, more proper songwriting and publishing credits. If you're gonna take an R the feel of an RB song, maybe you should partner with that and you're gonna interpolate it. Maybe you should give the original artist some publishing, some songwriting credits, because that's where you get inspiration from. So that's kind of dream scenario.
But it's just raising awareness and and keeping the conversation going.
Amra Pajalic (29:00)
I know that there have been a lot of instances in the media of artists taking songs and sampling and not giving credit. has that fallen out like where it doesn't happen so much anymore because there's more litigation and more understanding of copyright, or is that still something that's an issue in the industry?
Amani Roberts (29:21)
Yeah, that's much that's much less of an issue now because there's so many rules in place to prevent that. So that's not as a big a issue as it was maybe in the seventies well over the eighties. So that's less of a issue and and nowadays people will quickly hear something and if it's not credited, they'll retroactively go credit it too. So it's it's much less of an issue now, based on my research, what I've seen and what I've studied.
Amra Pajalic (29:45)
Mm, mm. Yeah, I mean, finally copyright's being recognized, but then we've still got new issues,
Amani Roberts (29:52)
Still got long
way to go with copyright though. A long way to go with copyright, yes.
Amra Pajalic (29:55)
Yeah,
we we won't talk about the other things that are going on with copyright
Amani Roberts (29:58)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (30:00)
at the moment. so what do you want a reader who's never heard of the act in this book to feel by the last page?
Amani Roberts (30:09)
Very
similar to just the feeling you were getting when you said, I remember that song, or I remember listening to that song, just just a touch of nostalgia or or knowing where that's where that song comes from. Like a lot of people think some of these songs out now are originals, but then they understand that some of it's been sampled or some of it's been remade or interpolated. So if the if you're able to read the book and be like, that's where this artist got that rhythm from, or that's where this artist remade this song. Or
You know, you hear a song like, Ooh, this brings me back to the high school dance when I was, you know, when I asked my crush to dance or whatever. Things like that. That's that's what I want. Just bits of nostalgia that will lessen your stress, make you healthier, and bring a smile to your face.
Amra Pajalic (30:53)
Yeah, I have to say, I've started listening to more of my R and V, you know, the songs from from my adolescence in preparation for this and just been so happy. but I'm also
Amani Roberts (31:07)
See, it works, it works, yes.
Amra Pajalic (31:09)
seeing some of the bands, I think it was
Boys to men maybe who who they're actually doing some shows in Australia and some
Amani Roberts (31:17)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (31:17)
of those groups they're kind of you know, going around and and doing shows. And so, you know, our generation and that nostalgia is still creating an audience, is still creating that, you know, well a little bit of an opportunity, you
know, i in
Amani Roberts (31:34)
Yeah, yeah.
Amra Pajalic (31:35)
in these artists being able to connect.
Amani Roberts (31:38)
Exactly, like you know, Boisteman still tours, the Isaac Brothers still tour, Charlie Wilson still tours, TLC, who else? A lot of the legacy S SWV, a a lot of the legacy groups will still tour. The challenge is that where are the new groups that are gonna pick up the the torch, so to speak, and keep carrying it through the future? Because eventually, unfortunately, a lot of these legacy groups will age out. So who's gonna take their place as they're touring and doing things? So that's
That's the challenge and w how can we get these new groups to have the same impact as the legacy groups of the past?
Amra Pajalic (32:15)
So are there still you know, R and B groups is just that difficulty about breaking through and and getting out because of the popularity of the sound that's you know, the the genres that are now abounding?
Amani Roberts (32:29)
So
I'll I'll say there's still R and B groups. They're not as many as there were before. there's a group out of the UK, Flo. They do well. They got nominated for a Grammy this year. There's another group, Wanye Morris' sons have have a group too. There's also the Sherelles. So there are some girl groups out there, but it's just not to the volume that we had before. Like if you think about in the nineties, you had you had like boys to men.
TLC, you had SWV, Destiny's Child was coming, Jagged Edge, Drew Hill. I know I'm missing some, so please forgive me if I forget. But there's so many groups in the 90s, and they were just consistently performing. You know, Black, 702. All these groups that were performing and getting hits. Whereas now there's only a couple of these new groups coming along, and so it's just different. Destiny's Child, the late 90s, too. So it's it's just different. There's just not as many in terms of volume.
Amra Pajalic (33:27)
Yeah. Yes, I have to say I I feel what you're saying in terms of
Amani Roberts (33:31)
Mm. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (33:32)
that sense of passing the torch and and making sure that it continues. So I'm just curious, what R and B group you think deserved far more credit than they ever got?
Amani Roberts (33:45)
The
Eisley Brothers. By far. The
Amra Pajalic (33:46)
Yeah.
Amani Roberts (33:47)
Eisley Brothers because they have hits in six straight decades. They're one of the most sampled groups for hip hop music of all time. And they're still touring and they're still relevant to this day. So they're by far they're number one on top of my list.
Listen. Yes, listen to the yes.
Amra Pajalic (34:03)
back and go back to my playlist and make sure that I'm I'm adding them. And
w what's one thing about your own story that you didn't expect to end up in this book?
Amani Roberts (34:16)
Ooh.
Just the stories about what certain artists and groups mean to me. Like there's a story in there about new edition. And I just, you know, remember listening back in the day when we had our radios where you had to hit record on the tape deck and record the music off the radio. And that's when I really, really kind of fell in love with, you know, RB music, music in general. So the stories and then how I discovered the Quiet Storm, because you know I'm a romantic at heart.
So the Quiet Storm is a radio concept where it's all slow jam, slow songs in the evening time. You want to call up and make a dedication to your significant other and you know being a romantic. I love that. Because you know, I believe in love. So call up and and do a grand gesture of dedicating a song on the radio. So when you add those two together, that just to share that and to have that be confirmed in terms of that's who I am, that's kind of what would what I would answer that.
Amra Pajalic (35:05)
Mm. And you said you're working on the board game, so that's your next project. Anything else on the horizon?
Amani Roberts (35:14)
Well,
people, if I were to write another book, I would love to write a book on the life and times of TLC because I think that is a perfect example of what can go right in the music industry and what can go wrong. So I've already created a class that can be taught at university about this. There's a class that I'm pitching and trying to teach at universities about TLC. And I would love to write a book about them and just make it really thorough. So that's one, that's one topic, and then a second topic.
Would be kind of similar to your PhD. So researching, I want to research what happens when an artist or a group goes diamond, why it's so hard for them to follow up with more hits, like psychologically, scientifically, industry-wise, why it's so hard. And I think it's gonna be very similar to if you remember the myth, the mythology story about Icarus, when people fly too close to the sun and their wings get burned and so they they fade out.
And I have a feeling that that level of success is so debilitating to people that they just can't continue. So I wanna do research and maybe I can talk to some people and come up with a you know, whatever the research proper terminology is and share that. That will be project number two. But I'm still tired from this book, so I'm still resting.
Amra Pajalic (36:28)
Yeah, I know.
But the ideas don't stop, do they? I
Amani Roberts (36:30)
Yeah, yeah.
Amra Pajalic (36:32)
love both those ideas. and that second one, in a sense, even though it will be about the music industry, it's something that sort of applies to every industry, every
Amani Roberts (36:40)
Yeah. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (36:41)
creative industry, where, yeah, that when you get that spotlight and it's what we all dream about. It's like, please, please put the spotlight on me, please.
Amani Roberts (36:50)
Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (36:50)
and then when the spotlight comes,
Amani Roberts (36:53)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (36:54)
it's not quite
You know, there's there's a lot of things. I I
Amani Roberts (36:57)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (36:57)
just finished reading Lena Dunham's book, memoir, Famesick, and and it's
Amani Roberts (37:01)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (37:04)
exactly that. It's like that huge success, but then all the things that are going on behind the scenes, where
Amani Roberts (37:10)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Amra Pajalic (37:13)
it's sort of a blessing and a curse, but then you can't complain because it's like, well, look at you. That's wonderful.
Amani Roberts (37:18)
Yeah, yeah.
I'm just biased to the music industry 'cause that's what I work in. That's as a DJ, that's
Amra Pajalic (37:23)
Mm.
Amani Roberts (37:23)
what I do. So there's so many stories about well what happened to this group or this artist 'cause they hit this amazing level and then they maybe disappear and you never hear from them again. One of my favorite examples is Lauren Hill. And so when you have
Amra Pajalic (37:36)
Yes.
Amani Roberts (37:37)
the miseducation of Lauren Hill and then she could never ever kind of return to that that level. But I'm not sure like
if it was her choice, like she might have just wanted to lay back and relax 'cause every once in a while she'll comment on social media and maybe it was, you know, the industry or her choice. But I wanna learn and tell the story because it's so interesting and see what happened.
Amra Pajalic (37:57)
Yeah. Well that's the thing, in a sense, you've got like a lifelong journey now in terms of just exploring the passion. And the more that you immerse yourself in this research, the more you're discovering that you want to do. But I also really wanted to come back to that pitching a course at university. Hmm,
Amani Roberts (38:15)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (38:18)
you have given me a thought.
Amani Roberts (38:21)
Let's go. Do it. Do it. What course would you pitch? What course
do you want to pitch?
Amra Pajalic (38:25)
I actually
know what course I would love to pitch because, you know, talking about the traditional publishing industry, this is what's sold to authors here. and then look at what we are doing. And in Australia there's still, sort of the stigma about self publishing. Is that still happening in in US or do you think it's less so?
Amani Roberts (38:44)
L
it's less so. People r quickly realize it that you can do self publishing or hybrid and be very successful and make these charts. So the stigma is fading away pretty quickly, in my opinion.
Amra Pajalic (38:55)
Yeah. With us there's still sort of this stigma and there's also this sense that that is the only reality that is sold. And I personally 'cause I was traditionally published and I had the agents, the prizes, the grants, the first publishing deal, you know, two offers, just everything happened like that, and then after that it was like climbing a mountain where it's like, What?
Amani Roberts (39:20)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (39:20)
What nothing?
Nothing really? Like it just became so much harder. and and I keep pushing this point of view where I'm like self-publishing is the most viable way of earning an income these days as an artist, where
Amani Roberts (39:33)
Mm.
Amra Pajalic (39:33)
you just have to become
a small business and think of yourself
Amani Roberts (39:37)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (39:38)
as a small business. And so that's what I'd love to do. I'd love to pitch a course about, you know, self publishing as a business, as an entrepreneur, and also, you know, about all of this stuff in terms of thinking outside the box in terms of the books that you're writing, but then the intellectual property and the exploitation of that and the power that you've got. And yes, it means we have to invest our own money. it means, you know, because when you're traditionally published, they give you the money and
they buy your rights and then they do whatever
Amani Roberts (40:06)
Hm. Where?
Amra Pajalic (40:07)
they want with it. but you'd rather I don't know, I'm at the point now, and I think you're the same because you've done all this and and I had such an amazing success, where you're just like, that's okay. I'll invest in myself. This is this is
Amani Roberts (40:20)
Yeah. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (40:21)
what I care about and and this is where I'm going to put my time, money and energy. And I know that no one else can control it. So that's my my pitch for a course. So you have given me something else to strive for.
Amani Roberts (40:30)
Yeah. That's good.
That's good. That's if I were able to teach a music business class at a university and teach like the life and times of TLC and also the history of R and B groups, if those are my three classes every semester, I'd be in heaven. It would be like so much fun and there's so much you can do and guest speakers and there's just so much you can do with it. So that's kind of what I'm trying to work towards and finding a specific university that wants to collaborate and let's see what happens.
Amra Pajalic (40:59)
Well, I believe in you. I I have a feeling because
Amani Roberts (41:01)
Thank you.
Amra Pajalic (41:03)
I I'm finding this journey amazing. and just what I keep coming back to is just passion. When you've got that passion and you've got that you know, and the joy, but you know, you're you're doing it for that larger purpose in a sense, it I don't know, it grows, I think. So I have belief in you. I think
Amani Roberts (41:24)
Okay. All right.
Amra Pajalic (41:25)
Right, but y we will check in with each other in a in a like a year and we will see have we have we succeeded with our lofty
Amani Roberts (41:27)
Yes. Please, yes, absolutely. Yes. Yes.
Amra Pajalic (41:33)
goals. So I just wanted to get you to tell us where can listeners find you and connect with you and and your book?
Amani Roberts (41:39)
Yes.
If if you want to connect with me, particularly if you work as an author or if you work in the music industry and you want to learn about how to monetize better or get a book done, go to AmaniExperience dot com backslash call and I'm sure you'll put it in the show notes. And you can set up a free call with me. We can get on the Zoom and chat about that. My books are available wherever you buy books, and my regular website is Amani Experience dot com and my socials. You can go to YouTube, it's Amani Roberts, LinkedIn's Amani Roberts.
And then on my experience on like Instagram, TikTok and Twitter.
Amra Pajalic (42:13)
I know you're like me where it's like everywhere. We have to be everywhere.
Amani Roberts (42:15)
have to be. You c you kinda have to be. There's no choice,
but you know, I mostly engage on LinkedIn and a little bit on Instagram. And then I love to put up YouTube videos about music artists and things like that. So that's primarily LinkedIn, YouTube and little Instagram.
Amra Pajalic (42:30)
Beautiful. Well I shall include that in the show notes and it has been an absolute pleasure talking to you and learning from you. Thank you so much for connecting.
Amani Roberts (42:36)
Yes.
Absolutely. It's been a pleasure and thank you for such great questions too.
Amra Pajalic (42:44)
Thank you.
Welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. Today I have Amani Roberts, Masters of Arts, who has spent years behind the turntables before he spent years in the archives, and both taught him the same lesson. Someone always decides which stories get remembered. His book, The Quiet Storm, is his attempt to correct the record on RB groups: The Isley Brothers, The Temptations, TLC, Destiny's Child, Boys to Men.
Acts that dominated the charts for six decades and then vanished almost overnight once the industry, the media and the algorithms moved on. Amani holds a master's in music business from Berkeley College of Music and a degree from Howard University, and his writing on music, culture and creativity has appeared in Forbes, People, in the LA Times. Welcome, Amani.
Amani Roberts (00:57)
Thank you very much for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Amra Pajalic (01:00)
Me too. When I read you know, when you emailed me, I was like, my gosh, these are the groups I grew up with. This is my generation, this is what I was dancing to. We had I'm in Melbourne and you're in Los Angeles, is it?
Amani Roberts (01:16)
Las Vegas, Las Vegas,
yeah.
Amra Pajalic (01:17)
Las
Vegas. And so we had a a club here that played R and B music and me and my friend would travel all the way across onto the other side of the suburbs for this music. So I'm actually really excited to hear this perspective because this is something that I'm you know, grew up with and and I also love that thing of the untold stories or the forgotten stories and and kind of unearthing it. so I'm really excited about this. So
What was the moment that you realised this it wasn't just that R and B lost popularity? It was a story someone needed to go find and tell.
Amani Roberts (01:55)
I was doing some research for my my kind of thesis project at Berkeley College of Music and I did some initial research and I was like, ooh, there's a lot here. I did a little timeline and realized that by checking the charts after about 2005 or 6, it was pretty much empty of groups, and that was alarm. And I said, Okay, there's more to it, which means it's a good research project. So the research project was very fascinating. And then I said, Well, it would be a good idea to add the history in the front.
So people can read through the history, go through the journey and then see the question, well, what happened to the groups? And then see the answer afterwards, 'cause it's not like R and B is dead as a genre, it's alive and well and doing well, but the groups, what happened to the groups? That's the big question.
Amra Pajalic (02:40)
Hmm. Yeah, I can relate to that. I'm doing a PhD and it's like you start out thinking, this is what I'm gonna be doing, and suddenly
Amani Roberts (02:47)
Yeah, yeah.
Amra Pajalic (02:48)
three years later you're like, hmm, that's very interesting what happened. I don't
understand, but hey, I'm enjoying the journey.
Amani Roberts (02:53)
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Amra Pajalic (02:57)
so w you've been behind the turntables in classrooms and in boardrooms. What did being a DJ teach you about stories that get amplified and which get get skipped over?
Amani Roberts (03:08)
You know, I think being a DJ, it taught me all different stories of different music artists that I would play, their journeys. Cause when you go crate digging, as we say, you learn about music artists, groups, you learn about their B cuts, their first hits, their recent hits, so you can see the evolution of groups in terms of their sound as they go through diff different decades. So being a DJ is just like being a history learner. And then when you DJ out, you're kind of sharing history and taking people through a historical journey.
Amra Pajalic (03:37)
I how you're connecting that, because you know that's the thing, we sort of start our lives in certain areas and we think it's all separate, but we're learning skills that are actually translatable, that will actually sort of help us in other facets. So that's really wonderful. so is there a specific song or group that first made you curious or angry enough to spend years chasing the history down?
Amani Roberts (03:59)
You
said angry enough. That's funny. I would say Rick James Cold Blooded. That was the first one of my first 45, the little records. Cool and the Gang was probably the first, first group, because that was a group my dad loved and he played them all the time. I remember I had the 45 for get down on it. Of course, you know, Celebration was one of their most popular songs. So they were probably the first group where I entered the world.
of R and B groups. The second group would be Frankie Beverly and Maze, because my dad loved them and he played them a lot too. So those were the two initial groups that really got me into it.
Amra Pajalic (04:32)
Mm. Yeah, that's the thing. Those those I was just talking to someone last night about the songs that we grew up with and the nostalgia that it creates and it just becomes this, you know, soundtrack to your life in a sense. so you point to the decline of black owned media as part of the imperfect storm. Can you walk us through what actually got lost when those outlets disappeared?
Amani Roberts (04:54)
Yeah, so we we're talking about like Ebony Magazine, Essence magazine, Jet, and then Vibe Magazine. Those are the kind of the magazines. And they were the primary earned media outlet for R and B groups and hip hop. And so they all kind of went away. Now Essence is still around, but at its peak, all four together had about eight million one hundred thousand monthly subscribers. Jet was weekly, so Jet came out every week, so it was a lot. And now, you know it
You know, when I did the research, it's less than a million. It was less than five hundred thousand. So that is a big, big problem. And they, you know, Vibe magazine, you could you can see behind me, I have covers like it was it was part of the culture. And so when that goes away, that gives groups less of an opportunity to get exposure, to get in front of people on a consistent basis for free. It was a challenge. Then you had TV shows in America like we had in Living Color.
So
In Living Color would have like a lot of groups and hip hop acts that were playing, so you get exposure there. The Arsenio Hall show, gone. Those went off the air like eight days from each other in the mid-90s. Then you also had like Video Soul 106 in Park that was on BET. So all these specific media properties that would promote and share and tell the stories of RB groups, they go away and no one takes their place. So when no one takes their place.
people don't discover it as much and it just gets forgotten. So those were kind of some of the key elements that happen that really accelerated the the disappearance of R and B group.
Amra Pajalic (06:27)
What's your theory about what happened? Is it just the decline in journalism or was there something more?
Amani Roberts (06:33)
I th yeah, that that's you know, I think money was an issue. I think media was shifting and changing, and maybe they chose to not replace certain things. So you know, MTV, they went from playing like music videos to more like reality TV, because it could be very expensive to produce a show. Another show would be Video Video Soul. When it was Donnie Simpson, Video Soul would bring the groups in and talk to them, gone. So I think finances were a big issue, a shift in desires from the media and what to promote.
Now that that can be a whole nother topic as well, because whereas it hurt R and B groups, hip hop still was able to thrive, but there's questions as to why. So that's what I think it was money, desires from media companies to really promote only one genre that really s you know, had people of color in it. And so I think R and B groups kind of suffered.
Amra Pajalic (07:24)
Yeah, and you know, I come from a minority background, I'm Bosnian Muslim background, and so this
Amani Roberts (07:29)
Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (07:30)
whole podcast is premised on giving opportunity to underrepresented stories because this is something I see in the publishing industry in Australia and elsewhere where underrepresented minorities, you know, just if you don't have someone who understands, who is in your corner, those stories just don't get out there. You don't have that advocate.
happening and and that's what's important.
Amani Roberts (07:55)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's that's
important. I will say, but I also will say, you know, rock groups suffered from the same thing. Like they've kind of gone away too. They're not as frequent. They they had a little bit longer license, but they've kind of suffered through similar issues, even some pop groups. So I think it's more a shift in how people consume content, how we display content, because K pop groups are doing very, very well currently and they've done very, very well for the last couple of decades.
So they're doing something correctly that, you know, I would love for R and B groups to kind of study and see what they can do to kind of reverse the cycle and the trend. So groups still work. What is what are K pop groups doing that we can learn from?
Amra Pajalic (08:40)
thing and I'm curious to hear your perspective. I remember Cher once saying that she would not get a publishing contract in this climate because it's all about the aesthetics as opposed to the talent. What's your perspective on, you know,
Amani Roberts (08:55)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (08:56)
that that balance?
Mm
Amani Roberts (08:57)
She's not wrong. She's not wrong.
I think it sometimes it takes a l it takes it's very hard for someone who is a pure, talented singer and artist to rise up to the top because there's so much noise from some other people that people look at the outside of the package first before the inside. Generally speaking, now sometimes people break through and you get it, but what was it, the the old video where they said someone doesn't have a
Someone has a face for radio or video kill, the music star, basically, they were kind
Amra Pajalic (09:24)
Yes. Yes.
Amani Roberts (09:26)
of being very prophetic. That's kind of true. So now
Amra Pajalic (09:28)
Mm.
Amani Roberts (09:29)
it just takes so much more effort for the people who are supremely talented to get out there and be successful because there's so many distractions and people put money behind other acts that might be okay, but they're not as talented as other people who don't get as much exposure. So share wasn't wrong. She's not wrong.
Amra Pajalic (09:47)
Yeah, I know, it would kind of makes me sad because, you know, when we're in the arts, we're like, you know, it it's about the arts, it's about the artist. but even in the publishing industry I see so much this is my new bugbear, by the way, about, you know, the people who are, you know, getting things, it's it's the people who poke their head out, who are doing the you know, PR part of it.
Amani Roberts (10:09)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (10:10)
And I mean that's my sour grapes also, 'cause this is something that I've really struggled with.
Amani Roberts (10:15)
Yeah, yeah.
Amra Pajalic (10:16)
And I've had to enter this space and go, People need to see what a forty nine year old woman looks like and this is what I'm trying to do. So yeah,
Amani Roberts (10:24)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (10:26)
it's it's a difficult thing.
Amani Roberts (10:28)
It is. We're we're in an attention economy. So whatever you can do as a content creator to keep people's attention and catch people's attention consistently, they'll keep they'll keep following you. That's why some of the mid-level artists, like if they release an album, say in 2026 and they disappear for three years to release another album in 2029, people have forgotten about them. You have to keep releasing music, keep doing things. Only when you get to a certain level, like a Rihanna or Taylor Swift or a Beyonce, where you can release an album every five or ten years and people will still love you.
That's very rare air. But for the mid level artists and the up and coming, you have to be you have to be creating music, putting music out, creating videos, creating content, going on tour, being active on social media, sending out emails, finding your fans. It's a lot of work. It's very tiring. But that's because we're in an attention economy.
Amra Pajalic (11:16)
Yeah, it's very true 'cause like I'm I'm I started this podcast just because I wanted to talk to people and I just wanted to have conversations and sort of learn from people that that I'm talking to. and then I've kind of gone, this is accidentally doing all of that where it's just becoming an organic
know what I want to call it beast but I'm like that's not the right word but it almost is
Amani Roberts (11:42)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (11:43)
where it's like just growing and and you know doing doing those things. But yeah, it's I don't know, it's disheartening but it's also like the reality in a sense and we all need to in some way come to terms with it in the arts. but it does make me a little bit sad.
Amani Roberts (12:01)
Yeah,
yeah, yeah. I understand. Yeah. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (12:02)
Even as I know I'm responsible because I'm doing the same thing where I'm on social media and following the people
that are popping up more. Yeah. so the digital divide is such an unexpected piece in of this story for people who assume that chart data is neutral. What did researching teach you about the n what numbers can hide about a story?
Amani Roberts (12:28)
Hmm. I think numbers, you know, we pay a lot of attention to who like who gets the number one song, how long they stay there. But you have some artists that have never had a number one song that are legends in the in the music industry. So a lot of times we put a lot of maybe too much focus on that. And a lot of times artists will get discouraged if they don't get these top charts, but they have an amazing catalog. Like I look at one of my favorite groups, Mint Condition.
I think they had one song that reached number one or number two, which was Pretty Brown Eyes, but they're like legends, they do so well. In Vogue, another one of my favorite groups, they never had a number one Yeah, they never had a a
Amra Pajalic (13:04)
Loving work. my god, I love them so much.
Amani Roberts (13:07)
a number one song on the Billboard Hot One Hundred. They always came in second, but they're legends. So you look even Cool in the Gang. Cool in the gang
Amra Pajalic (13:13)
Mm.
Amani Roberts (13:14)
is a legendary group. In the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, they had one Billboard Hot One Hundred number one song. So the Jackson Five never had one. I have to double check. I'm pretty sure that's true.
So it's challenging between the numbers and then you have the awards like the Grammys. So but they're important because they're good milestones to shoot for and they recognize people doing well. But sometimes some of the greatest groups get lost because they didn't have the numbers that people on the outside would look at and say, well, they never had a number one, so they're not even gonna listen to them. Well, they don't realize this is a group that's been sampled so many times, or this is a group that's had like the Isaac brothers. So they've had
Billboard Hot 100 hits on the Hot 100 chart, which is all genres, six straight decades. That's never been done before. I question if it will be done before, because I'm talking about new music, six straight decades, but no one really knows this. People are shocked when I tell them the Isaac Brothers had hits starting in the 50s all the way to the 2000s, and that's something where people kind of discount it. Now they're famous within RB, but they should be even bigger. They're one of my favorite groups, and I I'm on a mission to keep spreading the word because
Those are three good examples of how numbers kind of tell a different story than actually the truth.
Amra Pajalic (14:29)
What I'm getting from that is also what I'm seeing in the publishing industry where it's like all these people trying to hit the Amazon charts and you know be on the top lists. And the thing about being in this industry as an indie author, it's about the backlist. It's about having books that you are continually promoting and then that you're doing new books. And so that's the thing in a sense with all of the arts, it's not about that one great success, it's about continually building and just sort of
to keep going and keep going out there. But yes, the industry, it does look at all those markers and that's why, you know, you need it. So it's a very difficult balancing act.
Amani Roberts (15:08)
Yeah.
I mean, like just like if you're an author, you want to have a catalogue of books that you've written. If you're a musician, you have a catalogue of albums and singles that you've produced. Like for my second book, I made the USA Today top one hundred. I was number fifty. So my book was in the newspaper. I was number one in like five categories on Amazon. So that's important. That's good for PR, but then the next week it changes. So you have to continue to promote the book, you have to continue to do it. So it's an important, it's good for the resume, it's good for credibility.
But that's just kind of the beginning and you can't just let that be your only focus.
Amra Pajalic (15:43)
which book was that? Was that DJ's Main Business? The Quiet Storm is your second book.
Amani Roberts (15:46)
No, the Quiet Storm. So when the Quiet Storm came out in in
in second book in February of twenty twenty five, last year, we made number fifty on the USA Today bestseller list on our launch week, which was tremendous. I was thrilled, I'm still thrilled. I even have the poster of it over there. But
Amra Pajalic (16:01)
Yes.
Amani Roberts (16:03)
that was just the beginning. That was
just the beginning, so there's more to do.
Amra Pajalic (16:07)
Mm. And so when people have read the book and and connected the book, what's some of the feedback that you're receiving?
Amani Roberts (16:14)
So if you if you when you get the book, you'll notice there's rare photographs of groups that you probably have never seen before. So that was something that took a lot of intentionality. The the layout of the book is very unique because I show people the charts, my favorite samples, my favorite songs from the group, their Grammy nominations, pictures. So it's a it's like an experience. Like you don't have to you don't have you don't shouldn't read it front to back. Just take a decade, read it, look up your favorite groups, check it, come back.
it's an experience, which is why I'm actually turning it into a board game too. That's the project for this year, as I'm gonna turn the book into a game and so we're working on that. But great feedback. People are surprised at some of the facts. People are always like, Well, what are you gonna write next? and all this. So very, very positive feedback. it just takes time to get the book in all the people's hands 'cause it doesn't happen overnight.
Amra Pajalic (17:03)
No, and I love that you're 'cause you know that's the other thing. We own this copyright, you know, when when we do it all ourselves. and that means that we can exploit our intellectual property
Amani Roberts (17:15)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (17:15)
and look at different ways of creating connections with an audience. So I love the idea of the board game. Can you give us a little bit of a you know, how is that gonna work?
Amani Roberts (17:25)
Okay, so you start the board game, you'll be in the nineteen fifties, and you'll travel through and you'll have some questions about maybe some groups in the fifties or sixties, but you wanna get a certain amount of points. Now, if there are four of us playing and say you don't know a lot about the decade, but there's our friend Laura and Laura knows a lot about the decade, you can bet some of your points. So I bet you Laura's gonna get this question right. So even if you don't know, you bet ten whatever the currency is, and she gets it right, you get the points. You can keep moving along too. So it
Even if you're only familiar with a few decades, you can still bet on who you're playing with to see who who does well. And so you travel through the different journeys. Some cards will have a QR code where you have to listen to a song on either Spotify or YouTube, and you keep moving along, and there'll be a trivia question. Like a trivia question would be: in the U.S., there are only two female groups that have earned diamond status for album sales. That's that's 10 million albums units or more. What two groups are that?
Do you know you have any guesses?
Amra Pajalic (18:27)
Something in TLC maybe? Maybe in vogue?
Amani Roberts (18:28)
TLC is one, very
good. And then the other one's actually not an RB group. It's the Dixie Chicks. And so you get those
Amra Pajalic (18:35)
yes.
Amani Roberts (18:35)
questions and you get the questions and you get it right, you bet, and then you keep moving. So little questions like that. Then maybe another time you come and you'll hear, you'll put the song on, you have to be like, okay, this is an R B song, but what famous hip hop artist sampled this song? So if I put on like between no, if I put on Caravan of Love or Footsteps in the Dark by the Isaac brothers.
And I say what famous hip hop artists sample this song, you you would say, Okay, who do you think knows the answer? The answer is Ice Cube, where it was a good day, then you keep going. So you mix between trivia, interactive things, and you have a gambling aspect and you work your all the way to the mid two thousands, and that's where the game kinda ends and you win.
Amra Pajalic (19:15)
That actually sounds like a great night in. I want this board game. We're going to Yeah, you're gonna have to put me on your mailing list and and when it comes to but I also
Amani Roberts (19:18)
I'll let you know when it's done.
Amra Pajalic (19:24)
love the idea behind it because you know you've created all this extra content, but in a sense, your book then is the reference book where
Amani Roberts (19:30)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (19:30)
people can kind of use that book and read the book to learn all these facts and to be able to participate in the game.
But it's also just that sensory, it's almost like a party because you're listening to the music and you're really kind of embracing that nostalgia. And I
Amani Roberts (19:45)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (19:47)
don't know, like, you know, music just has so many memories and there's so many songs that we don't even know that we know or we we've heard it.
'cause when you were mentioning some of those artists, and mentioning these songs, I'm like, I've listened to those. I know all of those songs, but I didn't know the name of the artist and stuff. this is brilliant. I'm so glad I'm talking to you. Such great
Amani Roberts (20:06)
Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Thank you.
Amra Pajalic (20:09)
No, this is just great ideas because this is the thing that we have to do. We have to sort of and but this is also the joy of what we do where we can get these ideas and where, you know, if you were working with a publisher, they might be like, don't know, they've taken your copyright, you can't move forward with this. But you're an entrepreneur, you're just moving forward with it.
and you'll see, you know, I I think it's gonna be a winner to be honest. I think I think that's gonna be a a really good
Amani Roberts (20:37)
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.
Amra Pajalic (20:41)
thing that's gonna get out there. So when you set out to write The Quiet Storm, did you see yourself as a historian, journalist, or something closer to an advocate?
Amani Roberts (20:52)
At first I saw myself as like a researcher. I was doing research and trying to determine what happened. But as I got further into it and as I got more feedback from people who read it, they started calling me like a music historian, a RB historian. So I'll accept that. I'll take that. but at first it was research, but as I got into it and realized just the amount of history and all the writing and all the references, I quickly realized that it was more than just a research kind of book.
Amra Pajalic (21:15)
Mm. And I think also when we do things that we are so passionate about, we kind of we don't set out to be, but we become advocates for that part of history. because it's our history, but it's also like, you know, something that we really want people to know about and to learn about. I don't know, when I was working on the book that's part of my thesis
I had to believe this was going to change the world. Like you have to go into this hubris
Amani Roberts (21:40)
Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (21:41)
thing. even though it's a book and, you know, people reading it, but it's it's gonna teach them something. And I think that's the same with your book where you're doing something you believe in so much, something you're so passionate about, and and that's what readers get out of it. So it's pretty awesome.
Amani Roberts (21:56)
Yeah, yeah. Thank you.
Amra Pajalic (22:00)
So how did you research the story of the mainstream industry? Stopped documenting. Where did you find these receipts?
Amani Roberts (22:07)
Mm-hmm. So you do a lot of research on the internet. You read a lot of books. Like I had I read Charlie Wilson's autobiography because he talked a lot about his time with the gap band. You watch a lot of documentaries, you watch a lot of interviews, just watching, reading, watching, reading, researching. Then you got a fact check because everything you find online you need to trust and verify. And that just took a that's why it took four and a half years to write it, because there was so much research and watching and writing and fact checking.
So, like love mini documentaries, a lot of great podcasts out there, a lot of great interviews, books. That was it. That's it. It's just a lot of that. It's just a lot of that putting the pieces together. And then
Amra Pajalic (22:47)
Yeah, you really kind of disappear into it.
Amani Roberts (22:50)
yes, and then with my I have to credit my students at Cal State University of Fullerton because they helped me with the data. They helped me do the research on looking up the charts. And we came up with an algorithm that we really put importance on record sales.
Grammy nominations and wins, Billboard Hot 100, hits in terms of the top one hundred, and then notable performances. So we have all that and we we put how much does each group get in that category? We have an algorithm. That's how I was able to come up with the top ten or eleven for each decade. And so I really credit my students at Cal State University of Fulton for helping me do that. It was the middle of a pandemic, so they had extra time. I thanked them all in the book, but
They did lotta the data research on the front end while I was doing the historical research and telling the story and then you put the two and two together and we make four.
Amra Pajalic (23:36)
And that's the thing, you never know where your unexpected allies will come in and you
Amani Roberts (23:39)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (23:39)
know, the support networks. And that's why it's important to share what you're doing and talk about it.
Amani Roberts (23:44)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (23:45)
and see how can you, you know, are there connections with people?
Amani Roberts (23:48)
Right, right.
Amra Pajalic (23:49)
It's wonderful. so you've called the book a cultural manifesto, not just a history book. Why what did you feel free to say that a straight history wouldn't let you say?
Amani Roberts (24:01)
Just
I gave a lot of opinions in the book. Like each chapter, it'll say like my favorite samples, my favorite songs, and then my take. And so I will share a lot of personal information about the groups in terms of how I discovered them, what they mean to me, and how I continue to support and research them. Like I probably referenced my lime green CD for SWV in that chapter. I talk about how my dad exposed me to Frankie Beverly and Mays. I talk about
Even a group like Climax in the eighties was pretty rare because they had a all all female group of color and they were playing all the instruments. So there's certain different takes that I have that made it more than just a history book. I give you the history and all the facts that have been checked and confirmed and then I sprinkle in a little bit of just my opinion and my experience. Like, you know, there'll be certain groups, maybe Jagged Edge where, you know, some of their slow songs were fixtures on mixtapes I used to make. Just fun personal things that people can relate to. So they're kind of
peeking into my world.
Amra Pajalic (25:01)
I think that's important because at the end of the day when we're writing, there's no such thing I mean, some historians, you know, if it's a history book, it's it's objective, but I don't know, it's it's about that personal journey. And then people
Amani Roberts (25:12)
Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (25:13)
can read it and connect with their personal journey and and the songs that an artist that really influenced them. So a lot of my listeners are writers trying to get an overlooked story past gate gatekeepers who don't think it matters.
What did writing this book teach you that you'd pass on to them?
Amani Roberts (25:33)
Well,
absolutely. Well, we've kind of discussed like it's okay to self-publish, even hybrid publish, so you own your IP. Therefore, you don't have to worry about the gatekeepers. You can put your book out yourself, you can do the whole launch, and you can get a certain amount of success and credibility, etc. Maybe you make a chart of USA Today bestseller list, but you get your book out there, then you spread the word about yourself, then people will start to recognize it. So don't my message would be don't let traditional ways of
Publishing books stop you from moving forward? That would be my message.
Amra Pajalic (26:06)
Yeah, my view is that and I've I've interviewed quite a few writers at this point who are in the traditional publishing model in Australia, and they're just like, It's not really working, it's a bit outdated, they're not quite in touch with you know, even even in Australia, I don't know if this happens in the US, but in Australia they p price ebooks pretty much the same price as the paperback.
Amani Roberts (26:32)
interesting.
Amra Pajalic (26:32)
Yeah, it's ridiculous
because they're trying to force readers to buy the paperback. And the issue is as an author, you have more chance of continuing to earn income on the ebook post publication, but not if that price is so high.
Amani Roberts (26:52)
Yeah, interesting.
Amra Pajalic (26:52)
so there's a lot of things like that where
it's just like, you know, it doesn't benefit the long term. and if you don't have and like, you know, traditional publishing models, you get six weeks in a bookstore and then good day.
Amani Roberts (27:05)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Amra Pajalic (27:07)
unless unless something happens where you get shortlisted for a prize. Whereas the joy of what we're doing, it doesn't stop.
It's constant promotion, like as you're coming up with new ideas, new products, but then anything you do in the future is continuing to sort of promote the backlist. Yeah.
Amani Roberts (27:25)
Yeah. Yeah. That's
interesting. Very interesting. Wow. Hmm.
Amra Pajalic (27:29)
Yeah,
yeah, it's it's I have a lot of things, but I can't say it on air. Yeah,
Amani Roberts (27:34)
Understood, understood, understood.
Amra Pajalic (27:37)
I'm sure you're the same where you're like, There are things we
Amani Roberts (27:39)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (27:39)
will talk about on the air and there are things that are just staying in the vault.
Amani Roberts (27:41)
Things. Yeah, yeah.
Amra Pajalic (27:45)
so if R and B groups get their history back, get remembered properly, what changes for artists making music in that tradition? right now? What what do you think changes for people right now?
Amani Roberts (27:58)
So
it's it's more about getting people to understand just the history and how much R and B is at the the core of all music genres. And I think that if we can continue to raise awareness about that and show people where this music comes from, I think maybe more people will embrace and try to make RB music and you know, it's okay because we have so many different genres now. It's different, but I just think that
People embrace RB more, they'll give them their credit, more credit than is due. They'll sample them more because sampling is pretty popular, especially hip hop, pop music, and they'll give proper credit. So just raises awareness, more sampling, more duets, more proper songwriting and publishing credits. If you're gonna take an R the feel of an RB song, maybe you should partner with that and you're gonna interpolate it. Maybe you should give the original artist some publishing, some songwriting credits, because that's where you get inspiration from. So that's kind of dream scenario.
But it's just raising awareness and and keeping the conversation going.
Amra Pajalic (29:00)
I know that there have been a lot of instances in the media of artists taking songs and sampling and not giving credit. has that fallen out like where it doesn't happen so much anymore because there's more litigation and more understanding of copyright, or is that still something that's an issue in the industry?
Amani Roberts (29:21)
Yeah, that's much that's much less of an issue now because there's so many rules in place to prevent that. So that's not as a big a issue as it was maybe in the seventies well over the eighties. So that's less of a issue and and nowadays people will quickly hear something and if it's not credited, they'll retroactively go credit it too. So it's it's much less of an issue now, based on my research, what I've seen and what I've studied.
Amra Pajalic (29:45)
Mm, mm. Yeah, I mean, finally copyright's being recognized, but then we've still got new issues,
Amani Roberts (29:52)
Still got long
way to go with copyright though. A long way to go with copyright, yes.
Amra Pajalic (29:55)
Yeah,
we we won't talk about the other things that are going on with copyright
Amani Roberts (29:58)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (30:00)
at the moment. so what do you want a reader who's never heard of the act in this book to feel by the last page?
Amani Roberts (30:09)
Very
similar to just the feeling you were getting when you said, I remember that song, or I remember listening to that song, just just a touch of nostalgia or or knowing where that's where that song comes from. Like a lot of people think some of these songs out now are originals, but then they understand that some of it's been sampled or some of it's been remade or interpolated. So if the if you're able to read the book and be like, that's where this artist got that rhythm from, or that's where this artist remade this song. Or
You know, you hear a song like, Ooh, this brings me back to the high school dance when I was, you know, when I asked my crush to dance or whatever. Things like that. That's that's what I want. Just bits of nostalgia that will lessen your stress, make you healthier, and bring a smile to your face.
Amra Pajalic (30:53)
Yeah, I have to say, I've started listening to more of my R and V, you know, the songs from from my adolescence in preparation for this and just been so happy. but I'm also
Amani Roberts (31:07)
See, it works, it works, yes.
Amra Pajalic (31:09)
seeing some of the bands, I think it was
Boys to men maybe who who they're actually doing some shows in Australia and some
Amani Roberts (31:17)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (31:17)
of those groups they're kind of you know, going around and and doing shows. And so, you know, our generation and that nostalgia is still creating an audience, is still creating that, you know, well a little bit of an opportunity, you
know, i in
Amani Roberts (31:34)
Yeah, yeah.
Amra Pajalic (31:35)
in these artists being able to connect.
Amani Roberts (31:38)
Exactly, like you know, Boisteman still tours, the Isaac Brothers still tour, Charlie Wilson still tours, TLC, who else? A lot of the legacy S SWV, a a lot of the legacy groups will still tour. The challenge is that where are the new groups that are gonna pick up the the torch, so to speak, and keep carrying it through the future? Because eventually, unfortunately, a lot of these legacy groups will age out. So who's gonna take their place as they're touring and doing things? So that's
That's the challenge and w how can we get these new groups to have the same impact as the legacy groups of the past?
Amra Pajalic (32:15)
So are there still you know, R and B groups is just that difficulty about breaking through and and getting out because of the popularity of the sound that's you know, the the genres that are now abounding?
Amani Roberts (32:29)
So
I'll I'll say there's still R and B groups. They're not as many as there were before. there's a group out of the UK, Flo. They do well. They got nominated for a Grammy this year. There's another group, Wanye Morris' sons have have a group too. There's also the Sherelles. So there are some girl groups out there, but it's just not to the volume that we had before. Like if you think about in the nineties, you had you had like boys to men.
TLC, you had SWV, Destiny's Child was coming, Jagged Edge, Drew Hill. I know I'm missing some, so please forgive me if I forget. But there's so many groups in the 90s, and they were just consistently performing. You know, Black, 702. All these groups that were performing and getting hits. Whereas now there's only a couple of these new groups coming along, and so it's just different. Destiny's Child, the late 90s, too. So it's it's just different. There's just not as many in terms of volume.
Amra Pajalic (33:27)
Yeah. Yes, I have to say I I feel what you're saying in terms of
Amani Roberts (33:31)
Mm. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (33:32)
that sense of passing the torch and and making sure that it continues. So I'm just curious, what R and B group you think deserved far more credit than they ever got?
Amani Roberts (33:45)
The
Eisley Brothers. By far. The
Amra Pajalic (33:46)
Yeah.
Amani Roberts (33:47)
Eisley Brothers because they have hits in six straight decades. They're one of the most sampled groups for hip hop music of all time. And they're still touring and they're still relevant to this day. So they're by far they're number one on top of my list.
Listen. Yes, listen to the yes.
Amra Pajalic (34:03)
back and go back to my playlist and make sure that I'm I'm adding them. And
w what's one thing about your own story that you didn't expect to end up in this book?
Amani Roberts (34:16)
Ooh.
Just the stories about what certain artists and groups mean to me. Like there's a story in there about new edition. And I just, you know, remember listening back in the day when we had our radios where you had to hit record on the tape deck and record the music off the radio. And that's when I really, really kind of fell in love with, you know, RB music, music in general. So the stories and then how I discovered the Quiet Storm, because you know I'm a romantic at heart.
So the Quiet Storm is a radio concept where it's all slow jam, slow songs in the evening time. You want to call up and make a dedication to your significant other and you know being a romantic. I love that. Because you know, I believe in love. So call up and and do a grand gesture of dedicating a song on the radio. So when you add those two together, that just to share that and to have that be confirmed in terms of that's who I am, that's kind of what would what I would answer that.
Amra Pajalic (35:05)
Mm. And you said you're working on the board game, so that's your next project. Anything else on the horizon?
Amani Roberts (35:14)
Well,
people, if I were to write another book, I would love to write a book on the life and times of TLC because I think that is a perfect example of what can go right in the music industry and what can go wrong. So I've already created a class that can be taught at university about this. There's a class that I'm pitching and trying to teach at universities about TLC. And I would love to write a book about them and just make it really thorough. So that's one, that's one topic, and then a second topic.
Would be kind of similar to your PhD. So researching, I want to research what happens when an artist or a group goes diamond, why it's so hard for them to follow up with more hits, like psychologically, scientifically, industry-wise, why it's so hard. And I think it's gonna be very similar to if you remember the myth, the mythology story about Icarus, when people fly too close to the sun and their wings get burned and so they they fade out.
And I have a feeling that that level of success is so debilitating to people that they just can't continue. So I wanna do research and maybe I can talk to some people and come up with a you know, whatever the research proper terminology is and share that. That will be project number two. But I'm still tired from this book, so I'm still resting.
Amra Pajalic (36:28)
Yeah, I know.
But the ideas don't stop, do they? I
Amani Roberts (36:30)
Yeah, yeah.
Amra Pajalic (36:32)
love both those ideas. and that second one, in a sense, even though it will be about the music industry, it's something that sort of applies to every industry, every
Amani Roberts (36:40)
Yeah. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (36:41)
creative industry, where, yeah, that when you get that spotlight and it's what we all dream about. It's like, please, please put the spotlight on me, please.
Amani Roberts (36:50)
Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (36:50)
and then when the spotlight comes,
Amani Roberts (36:53)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (36:54)
it's not quite
You know, there's there's a lot of things. I I
Amani Roberts (36:57)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (36:57)
just finished reading Lena Dunham's book, memoir, Famesick, and and it's
Amani Roberts (37:01)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Amra Pajalic (37:04)
exactly that. It's like that huge success, but then all the things that are going on behind the scenes, where
Amani Roberts (37:10)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Amra Pajalic (37:13)
it's sort of a blessing and a curse, but then you can't complain because it's like, well, look at you. That's wonderful.
Amani Roberts (37:18)
Yeah, yeah.
I'm just biased to the music industry 'cause that's what I work in. That's as a DJ, that's
Amra Pajalic (37:23)
Mm.
Amani Roberts (37:23)
what I do. So there's so many stories about well what happened to this group or this artist 'cause they hit this amazing level and then they maybe disappear and you never hear from them again. One of my favorite examples is Lauren Hill. And so when you have
Amra Pajalic (37:36)
Yes.
Amani Roberts (37:37)
the miseducation of Lauren Hill and then she could never ever kind of return to that that level. But I'm not sure like
if it was her choice, like she might have just wanted to lay back and relax 'cause every once in a while she'll comment on social media and maybe it was, you know, the industry or her choice. But I wanna learn and tell the story because it's so interesting and see what happened.
Amra Pajalic (37:57)
Yeah. Well that's the thing, in a sense, you've got like a lifelong journey now in terms of just exploring the passion. And the more that you immerse yourself in this research, the more you're discovering that you want to do. But I also really wanted to come back to that pitching a course at university. Hmm,
Amani Roberts (38:15)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (38:18)
you have given me a thought.
Amani Roberts (38:21)
Let's go. Do it. Do it. What course would you pitch? What course
do you want to pitch?
Amra Pajalic (38:25)
I actually
know what course I would love to pitch because, you know, talking about the traditional publishing industry, this is what's sold to authors here. and then look at what we are doing. And in Australia there's still, sort of the stigma about self publishing. Is that still happening in in US or do you think it's less so?
Amani Roberts (38:44)
L
it's less so. People r quickly realize it that you can do self publishing or hybrid and be very successful and make these charts. So the stigma is fading away pretty quickly, in my opinion.
Amra Pajalic (38:55)
Yeah. With us there's still sort of this stigma and there's also this sense that that is the only reality that is sold. And I personally 'cause I was traditionally published and I had the agents, the prizes, the grants, the first publishing deal, you know, two offers, just everything happened like that, and then after that it was like climbing a mountain where it's like, What?
Amani Roberts (39:20)
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (39:20)
What nothing?
Nothing really? Like it just became so much harder. and and I keep pushing this point of view where I'm like self-publishing is the most viable way of earning an income these days as an artist, where
Amani Roberts (39:33)
Mm.
Amra Pajalic (39:33)
you just have to become
a small business and think of yourself
Amani Roberts (39:37)
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (39:38)
as a small business. And so that's what I'd love to do. I'd love to pitch a course about, you know, self publishing as a business, as an entrepreneur, and also, you know, about all of this stuff in terms of thinking outside the box in terms of the books that you're writing, but then the intellectual property and the exploitation of that and the power that you've got. And yes, it means we have to invest our own money. it means, you know, because when you're traditionally published, they give you the money and
they buy your rights and then they do whatever
Amani Roberts (40:06)
Hm. Where?
Amra Pajalic (40:07)
they want with it. but you'd rather I don't know, I'm at the point now, and I think you're the same because you've done all this and and I had such an amazing success, where you're just like, that's okay. I'll invest in myself. This is this is
Amani Roberts (40:20)
Yeah. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (40:21)
what I care about and and this is where I'm going to put my time, money and energy. And I know that no one else can control it. So that's my my pitch for a course. So you have given me something else to strive for.
Amani Roberts (40:30)
Yeah. That's good.
That's good. That's if I were able to teach a music business class at a university and teach like the life and times of TLC and also the history of R and B groups, if those are my three classes every semester, I'd be in heaven. It would be like so much fun and there's so much you can do and guest speakers and there's just so much you can do with it. So that's kind of what I'm trying to work towards and finding a specific university that wants to collaborate and let's see what happens.
Amra Pajalic (40:59)
Well, I believe in you. I I have a feeling because
Amani Roberts (41:01)
Thank you.
Amra Pajalic (41:03)
I I'm finding this journey amazing. and just what I keep coming back to is just passion. When you've got that passion and you've got that you know, and the joy, but you know, you're you're doing it for that larger purpose in a sense, it I don't know, it grows, I think. So I have belief in you. I think
Amani Roberts (41:24)
Okay. All right.
Amra Pajalic (41:25)
Right, but y we will check in with each other in a in a like a year and we will see have we have we succeeded with our lofty
Amani Roberts (41:27)
Yes. Please, yes, absolutely. Yes. Yes.
Amra Pajalic (41:33)
goals. So I just wanted to get you to tell us where can listeners find you and connect with you and and your book?
Amani Roberts (41:39)
Yes.
If if you want to connect with me, particularly if you work as an author or if you work in the music industry and you want to learn about how to monetize better or get a book done, go to AmaniExperience dot com backslash call and I'm sure you'll put it in the show notes. And you can set up a free call with me. We can get on the Zoom and chat about that. My books are available wherever you buy books, and my regular website is Amani Experience dot com and my socials. You can go to YouTube, it's Amani Roberts, LinkedIn's Amani Roberts.
And then on my experience on like Instagram, TikTok and Twitter.
Amra Pajalic (42:13)
I know you're like me where it's like everywhere. We have to be everywhere.
Amani Roberts (42:15)
have to be. You c you kinda have to be. There's no choice,
but you know, I mostly engage on LinkedIn and a little bit on Instagram. And then I love to put up YouTube videos about music artists and things like that. So that's primarily LinkedIn, YouTube and little Instagram.
Amra Pajalic (42:30)
Beautiful. Well I shall include that in the show notes and it has been an absolute pleasure talking to you and learning from you. Thank you so much for connecting.
Amani Roberts (42:36)
Yes.
Absolutely. It's been a pleasure and thank you for such great questions too.
Amra Pajalic (42:44)
Thank you.